Yasuo can hold his q for too long.

Keyoshi·Jan 16, 2017·154 votes·5,007 views

Gives him too much power, he can zone just by holding it.

151 Comments

Mafia LeBlancJan 16, 201741 votes

So? annie literally never loses her stun until she uses a skill.

rtbf221651412Jan 16, 201712 votes

[{quoted}](name=LeBlanc or Troll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-16T07:32:21.148+0000)

So? annie literally never loses her stun until she uses a skill.

Doesn't she have to get a lot closer?

TakazakiJan 16, 201713 votes

play against annie as yasuo and say that twice i dare you

rtbf221651412Jan 16, 20176 votes

{quoted}

play against annie as yasuo and say that twice i dare you

Compare his Q to her range for her ult. I don't care about their matchup. It's about the range and CD.

TakazakiJan 16, 20179 votes

the arguement here is that we are complaining about yasuo ability to zone with Q whilst annie does it better longer and isnt a skill shot so its very valid to talk about the match up, see how scared an annie is vs how scared a yasuo is when they both have their CC up.

who last longer whos will hit and who does more damage/ trades better.

PyrokineticmageJan 16, 20176 votes

{quoted}

the arguement here is that we are complaining about yasuo ability to zone with Q whilst annie does it better longer and isnt a skill shot so its very valid to talk about the match up, see how scared an annie is vs how scared a yasuo is when they both have their CC up.

who last longer whos will hit and who does more damage/ trades better.

Your forgetting how Yasou can spam his Q faster than Annie can charge up stuns. With every single Annie stun Yas can almost have 2 tornadoes.

Also Annie can barely farm without using Q. And there is the factor of wind wall in an all in scenario. So Yasu should win pre-6 but lose to annie post 6 assuming Yasou does not rush hexdrinker.

xeviJan 16, 20172 votes

Still takes ~9 seconds to recharge Yasuo nado

nado, 3 sec cd, q, cd, q, cd, nado is up

Annie q has a base 4 sec cd that halves when killing a target

Annie stun, 4 sec cd, q, 2 sec cd, q, cd, q, cd, q, cd, stun is up

That's about 12 seconds only using annies q ability

I definitely would not consider a 6 second difference to be "almost"

Additionally, even if windwall blocks annie's stun q, annie will still have her stun passive up meaning she can stun yasuo with her w which goes through windwall

rtbf221651412Jan 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Still takes ~9 seconds to recharge Yasuo nado

nado, 3 sec cd, q, cd, q, cd, nado is up

Annie q has a base 4 sec cd that halves when killing a target

Annie stun, 4 sec cd, q, 2 sec cd, q, cd, q, cd, q, cd, stun is up

That's about 12 seconds only using annies q ability

I definitely would not consider a 6 second difference to be "almost"

Additionally, even if windwall blocks annie's stun q, annie will still have her stun passive up meaning she can stun yasuo with her w which goes through windwall

Annie kinda farms with her abilities?

Yasuo kinda doesn't need to?

xeviJan 16, 20171 votes

Yasuo is kinda a melee ad champ while Annie is a ranged mage?

What is your point?

rtbf221651412Jan 16, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is kinda a melee ad champ while Annie is a ranged mage?

What is your point?

Yeah his Q is differently melee range.

xeviJan 16, 20171 votes

His q is also the thinnest skillshot in the game (not including nado)

Everything has trade offs.

Your arguments make zero sense. All you do is point out something about x champ and something about y champ but you aren't even comparing anything or thinking much of anything through logically

rtbf221651412Jan 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

His q is also the thinnest skillshot in the game (not including nado)

Everything has trade offs. Your arguments make zero sense. All you do is point out something about x champ and something about y champ

You brought Annie up, not me. And the person before did too, not me.

xeviJan 16, 20171 votes

Except I was actually debunking the idea of Annie stun taking extremely long to charge up in comparison to Yasuo nado??

While all you have done is just point out characteristics of these champs without an actual reason to what you're trying to convey?

xeviJan 17, 20172 votes

It's like you don't even take time to read what I wrote

{quoted}

Still takes ~9 seconds to recharge Yasuo nado

nado, 3 sec cd, q, cd, q, cd, nado is up

Annie q has a base 4 sec cd that halves when killing a target

Annie stun, 4 sec cd, q, 2 sec cd, q, cd, q, cd, q, cd, stun is up

That's about 12 seconds only using annies q ability

I definitely would not consider a 6 second difference to be "almost"

Additionally, even if windwall blocks annie's stun q, annie will still have her stun passive up meaning she can stun yasuo with her w which goes through windwall

And it's way easier to zone with Annie than with yasuo since his nado takes time to recharge and yasuo is super reliant on his nado to burst with his ult. Annie is ranged but can burst far easily and more than Yasuo can early on since her burst isn't reliant on having to charge up her passive all the way and can hold it at 3-4 stacks that last as long as she wants.

Yes annie uses abilities to farm which is why she is allowed to hold onto those stacks for as long as she wishes whereas Yasuo cannot.

Additionally, Annie can charge up her passive with ew with no minions/enemies nearby whereas Yasuo cannot. As to why she would do this is simple. Gives her an immediate stun for roaming so she can go bot and immediately ult/flash ult to get a 1.25 second stun off.

All of this is rather basic Annie knowledge

48983507DEL1Jan 18, 20171 votes

You're ignoring the fact that Yasuo can hit his Q from a longer range, doesn't have any penalties for holding onto it, and can gap close onto his enemy with ease.

Annie, on the other hand, will have an intense time trying to last hit with her abysmal auto-attack animation if she tries to hold her stun for an eternity. She also can't get in range to use her stun unless her enemy is out of position.

TakazakiJan 18, 20171 votes

arguing range is pointless because skill shots tent to be longer then targeted abilities, you can dodge a yasuo Q but not an annie Q

annie can hold stun forever yasuo cannot

annie can charge her stun without penalty if done correctly yasuo can still take harass while trying to Q

annie can sit in your minions and threaten to all in you yasuo cannot

the argument was zoning not who had more range

48983507DEL1Jan 18, 20171 votes

No, range is absolutely valid when you consider how easy it is to hit Yasuo's Q. You can stay well out of Annie's range and still farm with any mage in the game. Yasuo can continuously poke you down, or just dash into your face and use windwall to prevent a counter-engage.

Yasuo can stack his Q by just throwing it into minions. Annie has to actually last hit them, or else she loses a ton of mana. This means she's a lot easier to push in, and is heavily penalized if she holds the stun forever.

If she's sitting in your minions, she's easy to hit with skillshots.

TakazakiJan 18, 20171 votes

its just as easy to side step his Q as well so again range isnt valid thats left up to player skill, the farther out you are the more time you have to dodge so

most ranged mages can straight up walk to the melee's to proc your shield with barely taking aggro if you run you get zoned which is again what we are talking about here. zoning

getting pushed in is the best way to deal with yasuo because he doesnt have a escape, its a free gank

if she is sitting in your minions she is looking to all in you, that skill shot wont mean much if you are dead

japan hate accJan 16, 20175 votes

Annie's is point and click. Yasuo's is a skillshot.

SSShutTheDuckUpJan 16, 201755 votes

I am actually amazed that you could use "Annie" and "skill" in the same sentence and it makes sense.

PeeJuiceJan 16, 20177 votes

The skill with playing Annie is not just getting fed, but getting fed and converting that to a win. I've had a few games lately where the Annie had 20+ kills, but she couldn't push waves and towers fast enough with her team to win. Unlike Yasuo, who can get just as fed, but is able to push waves and destroy towers at a significantly faster rate than Annie.

chipndip1Jan 16, 20171 votes

Melee carries tend to win games...

LordGeovanniJan 18, 20171 votes

not as much or safely as ranged carries hence why they get a babysitter and are a staple in every team

GalaqyJan 17, 20172 votes

Thought this was about Annie's stun...

Ionian VulpixJan 16, 20173 votes

Ability, Skill... different name for the same thing. And I'll be honest, it definitely takes some kind of skill to play Annie, mostly the skill to find her even remotely entertaining to play.

Though to be honest, I can't play her for the life of me.

48983507DEL1Jan 18, 20171 votes

Annie's kit doesn't take much skill to use.

However, using her kit against champions that outrange her is extremely difficult. Her skill floor revolves around dodging skillshots and flanking properly to get into range to use her simple kit of spells.

There's a reason Annie Bot is one of the few players who ever use Annie in Challenger.

Mighty MorteinJan 16, 20175 votes

While that is annoying, she can't farm as effectively if she just AA's minions. Yasuo can get his tornado up pretty often in the early game and obviously even faster in the late game.

NightmareAmazoXJan 16, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Evil Kermit 1,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-01-16T09:33:59.848+0000)

While that is annoying, she can't farm as effectively if she just AA's minions.

You wot? Lol.

SithesisLordJan 16, 201714 votes

Annie. Mana intensive mage.

Yasuo. Manaless skirmisher.

Guess which one has an easier and consequentially faster and better CSing through AAs?

Hint: It ain´t the child.

Din0nugsJan 16, 20175 votes

I don't know if mana intensive is the right phrase. She refunds mana on every q she kills a minion with. Doesn't take very much to get her stun.

5000000000000000Jan 17, 20173 votes

It's probably better said as "she can't spam W for waveclear."

VerxintJan 17, 20173 votes

But she loses her stun to zone with if she last hits with Q. Yasuo can hold his tornado while dashing and autoattacking for CS.

KoKobotoJan 16, 20172 votes

All of Annie abilities have 625 range or less Yasuo Q has 900 range

DarkSunSovereignJan 16, 20172 votes

But annie is immobile af.

FunkyMonkey3696Jan 16, 20177 votes

Annie can hold her stun forever, that gives her more power

WolfessJan 16, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Pwner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-01-16T11:32:06.367+0000)

Annie can hold her stun forever, that gives her more power

yasuo farms with his autos just fine because he's an AD champ. he also requires no mana and his Q is a skillshot. all yasuo has to do is toss 2 q's into minions and hope to land a 3rd one on you and then he can instantly initiate on you. he also has mobility. annie, like other mages, needs to use her abilities to farm or she's going to get pushed to tower and lose CS, so she eventually needs to throw abilities to farm minions. and she is also FORCED to lose her stun on whatever ability (excluding her E shield) she uses next. her abilities cost mana to cast her stun is either a targeted ability that needs a target, a low-range cone, or a ground aoe ult that can be flashed out of, or even just miss. annie also has no mobility.

if you're complaining about annie's stun, then you're obviously not remembering the fact that you can use that to your advantage. She has 2 choices, save her one, single crowd control skill for you, or she can use it to farm and not get out-cs'd like crap.

if shes saving it for you, shove minions into her tower and make her lose cs. if you see her toss it at minions to farm, go harass her right after since it takes her time to build it back up, her stun is not bound to a single ability that she can save while she farms with other abilities.

of course, a good annie is also aware of these decisions and will try to play accordingly so she can prevent herself from getting caught making them, but that's left to player skill and experience to cover for their own champion's counterplay and weaknesses.

NightmareAmazoXJan 16, 20173 votes

You included some of Annie's downs and ups, Now include Yasuo's downs as well mate.

CatSithJan 16, 20174 votes

What are his downs? lol

ReZisT LustJan 16, 20171 votes

Being outranged and easily susceptible to being autod to burst range, a laughable easy to knock off passive shield that he has to walk around for to get back, less mobility if a wave isnt incoming, less mobility in jungle, a wind wall with a long cd during that time the enemy can pressure you off cs and can bait out the wall and wait it out or walk to the left or right a little early game.

Dextix LTJan 17, 20171 votes

Being outranged? He is fucking melle! And even then he has his insane mobility to cover that.

Also that passive shield is not easy to knock off. If you will get close to aa it, you will get close enough for yasuo to initiate, which he wants. If you knock it off with an ability, congratulations, the shield did its job and blocked damage.

Less mobility if a wave isnt coming? IM sorrry, are we playing the same game? There is a wave almost every goddamn time, unless you try to push and make your ass dangle out for the enemy jungler.

And the windwall describtion show that you have playing against bronze yasups only. YOu wont bait it out from a good yasuo, he will know when to use it or not, he has to fuck up for it to be "baited out", and even when its down, yasuo still has insane mobility to avoid any ranged pressure. And going left/right a little is not enough to avoid the windwall, especially since yasuo can also move.

ReZisT LustJan 17, 20171 votes

Yes everyone outranges melees even other melees, ok so he engages upon you then you engage on him while kiting back he cant re dash thru you so hes probably next to your caster minions since your kiting back while still doing dmg he gets damaged by ranged minions & u & if they're any left and if they're arent then he will either windwall forward for a escape path or behind for the butt protection. Yes with no wave, and im assuming since your a mid laner you have wave clear and have the power to freeze the lane then you should have the advantage. For the windwall i said little early cause his wall gets bigger later i wasnt very clear in that part lol. yasuo doesnt have the mobility to dodge out on any raged pressure lol. Fighting Yasuo away from minions and neutral monsters will limit his mobility. His skirmish potential is very good as well because of this, so be careful when initiating 2v2 and 3v3's, windwall has a long cooldown, as most yasuo players lvl it last the cooldown is easily 20 seconds for the whole laning phase, use lower cd CC skillshots to force it out and then back off until your low cd spell is back up

Dextix LTJan 17, 20171 votes

Question, how will you kite back from a yasuo who will most likely will have a readied up tornado by that time, who has high movement speed and who has a windwall to block any sort of cc? Answer, you wont kite him.

And it doesnt matter what mid laners you are, yes you have waveclear, but that doesnt matter for shit, because yasuo dashes through your minions, not his, and he is perfectly capable of farming under turret and waiting till his jungler kills you.

And it doesnt matter when the windwall is dropped, early or late. You will not bait out a good yasuo and you still wont be able to go around it in any way.

And yes, yasuo has mobility to dodge out of any ranged pressure, he has great movement speed, paired with his dashes on minions (Which are not hard to find, especially since yasuo will not be stupid enough to be near you without your minions around).

And again, windwall cooldown does not matter, when he can stop an entire initiation or even a kill-combo with that one ability. And i will repeat, having yasuo suck and him being baited out is not counterplay, it is hoping that the enemy yasuo sucks ass. And even when he oesnt have his wall he still retains his insane mobility.

ReZisT LustJan 17, 20171 votes

if you walk back and hit him thats kiting. also Ryze Annie {w} Lux {when he dashes thru u q in the direction he goes cause he cant windwall mid e, Lissandra Ziggs all hit him with cc btw <3, lol the point of freezing a wave is to have 4 minions next to your tower not under it and your minions will die because numbers while denying your enemy cs and he can get occasional q pressure i guess, windwalll cooldown fight him when its down use your lower cooldowns to poke him out of lane if he uses his wall then great hes gotta wait a while before another mages have item 3802 for sustain so use it to your advantage if he doesnt use it greater free poke, why should a yasuo be punished if hes better than you and you lack the skill to beat him?

Dextix LTJan 17, 20171 votes

And what mage can walk back and kite a yasuo? The answer is, almost none, because cast times, despite being short are still there. You listed 3 yasuo counters, mages with incredible cc capabilities that counter mobile champions.

And lux is not even a counter. I will repeat what i say to every yasuo bullshiter out there, his e does not last 10 years, unless the skill is instant it will NEVER hit yasuo at the moment when he cant cast spells, because that window is incredibly short.

Neither is ziggz who gets his entire kit blocked by yasuo besides his ultimate.

And again, you try to make it sound like freezing with a mage vs a yasuo is an easy thing, it isnt, and you wont be able to do it reliably in any way.

Poking wont work, he has no resources and he can dodge your poke with his r and high movement speed while also having a shield for any stray skillshots that hit him. And again, "fight him when his windwall is down", well, good luck baiting it out from a good yasuo! Your entire strategy falls apart if the yasuo is competent in any way!

The problem is not that the yasuo is better than you. The problem is that it doesnt matter if he is better or worse than you, because of the limitations of champions. If you will have a yasuo of the same skill as a skillshot relied midalener, yasuo will win because the mage will have no counteerplay to yasuo. Every champion has to have reliable counterplay other than sucking with the champion.

Yasuo doesnt. All of your "counterplay" you list is either counterpicking (A completely different thing from counterplaying), depends on yasuo sucking at the champ or in some cases, counterplay that is useless and helps the yasuo.

NightmareAmazoXJan 18, 20171 votes

You know, All this talk, It doesn't make any point. If there isn't really any counter play why does he not have a 100% win rate? Why has Yasuo not been picked in LCS for more than 2 years if he is this much of a beast and the only way to stop him is the player playing him screw himself over according to Dextix LT. All this is meaningless if you can't put it to practice.

Dextix LTJan 18, 20171 votes

Because pro play is COMPLETELY different from any other play, their strategies, gameeplay and champions are different. Just because something does not see 100% pro play, does not mean it is balanced or non-toxic. I am tired of people saying "BUT MUH LCS" as an argument when it means total shit considering the soloq and how different it is from pro play.

NightmareAmazoXJan 18, 20171 votes

DexTix LT, Quote from yourself.

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T14:03:11.035+0000)

And again, you try to make it sound like freezing with a mage vs a yasuo is an easy thing, it isnt, and you wont be able to do it reliably in any way.

Poking wont work, he has no resources and he can dodge your poke with his r and high movement speed while also having a shield for any stray skillshots that hit him. And again, "fight him when his windwall is down", well, good luck baiting it out from a good yasuo! Your entire strategy falls apart if the yasuo is competent in any way!

The problem is not that the yasuo is better than you. The problem is that it doesnt matter if he is better or worse than you, because of the limitations of champions. If you will have a yasuo of the same skill as a skillshot relied midalener, yasuo will win because the mage will have no counteerplay to yasuo. Every champion has to have reliable counterplay other than sucking with the champion.

Yasuo doesnt. All of your "counterplay" you list is either counterpicking (A completely different thing from counterplaying), depends on yasuo sucking at the champ or in some cases, counterplay that is useless and helps the yasuo.

If he has such power, If he is this good, Why is he not played in LC$? Why not build a strategy around Yasuo who holds this much power like you have said.

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T14:03:11.035+0000)

Yasuo doesnt. All of your "counterplay" you list is either counterpicking (A completely different thing from counterplaying), depends on yasuo sucking at the champ or in some cases, counterplay that is useless and helps the yasuo.

Dextix LTJan 18, 20171 votes

Do i have to repeat my last statement word by word? Because they play a different game, what is broken there may not be broken here and vice versa. Air got gutted because of how good he was in LCS, was he that good in SoloQ? No he was not. Shen was nerfed because of LCS, was he that good in SoloQ? Did he deserve a nerf? No. Rek'sai was gutted because of how good she was in LCS, was she that good after that first round of nerfs in SoloQ? NO!

We have multiple examples of how champions that are simply viable or good in Soloq are gutted just because in LCS they are gods.

This alone shows that the game, champions and even the meta is like day and night when comparing random soloq players with teams that can execute strategies they need or want. These are 2 different games that are not cpmarable.

Saying that "HURR DURR HE IS NOT IN LCS, PERFECTLY FINE!! HURR DURR" Is simply idiotic and shows how little you know about game balance and differences in TEAM pro play and in SOLO play on the ladder.

LCS also depends highly on counters and specific strategies. The current strategies do ot include yasuo and because of him being hard countered by enough champions he is simply not picked.

It is not that yasuo is weak, it is simply that he does not fit pro play in any way, at least currently, because there while inidividual champion strenght matters, they look into different strenghts and focus more on teamplay and counter teamplay.

That is why katarina, despite being a good champion is completely unviable in LCS. It is not because she is a bad champion, it is because she does not fit pro teamplay.

NightmareAmazoXJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T18:00:17.760+0000)

Do i have to repeat my last statement word by word? Because they play a different game, what is broken there may not be broken here and vice versa. Air got gutted because of how good he was in LCS, was he that good in SoloQ? No he was not. Shen was nerfed because of LCS, was he that good in SoloQ? Did he deserve a nerf? No. Rek'sai was gutted because of how good she was in LCS, was she that good after that first round of nerfs in SoloQ? NO!

We have multiple examples of how champions that are simply viable or good in Soloq are gutted just because in LCS they are gods.

This alone shows that the game, champions and even the meta is like day and night when comparing random soloq players with teams that can execute strategies they need or want. These are 2 different games that are not cpmarable.

Despite what you have said, Although.

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T14:03:11.035+0000)

Yasuo doesnt. All of your "counterplay" you list is either counterpicking (A completely different thing from counterplaying), depends on yasuo sucking at the champ or in some cases, counterplay that is useless and helps the yasuo.

This

It is not that yasuo is weak, it is simply that he does not fit pro play in any way, at least currently, because there while inidividual champion strenght matters, they look into different strenghts and focus more on teamplay and counter teamplay.

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2y4JEdof,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T14:03:11.035+0000)

The problem is not that the yasuo is better than you. The problem is that it doesnt matter if he is better or worse than you, because of the limitations of champions. If you will have a yasuo of the same skill as a skillshot relied midalener, yasuo will win because the mage will have no counteerplay to yasuo. Every champion has to have reliable counterplay other than sucking with the champion.

& this

LCS also depends highly on counters and specific strategies. The current strategies do ot include yasuo and because of him being hard countered by enough champions he is simply not picked.

Riot Games cannot balance things not even remotely good for SoloQ & LCS at the same time, They would either need to separate those two games balance but they won't do that because apparently they want us to adapt to the game and learn it.

Saying that "HURR DURR HE IS NOT IN LCS, PERFECTLY FINE!! HURR DURR" Is simply idiotic and shows how little you know about game balance and differences in TEAM pro play and in SOLO play on the ladder.

If professional players do not find Yasuo worth having a strategy power on that character, It's because like says the quote.

LCS also depends highly on counters and specific strategies. The current strategies do ot include yasuo and because of him being hard countered by enough champions he is simply not picked.

Not even the best of players are playing Yasuo (Faker,Bjergsen etc) in LCS because they know he isn't as over powered as NA boards claim he is, We need to adapt and learn the game better. Those players are (Faker etc) are one of the best players in the world, They got the knowledge & the skills, They know Yasuo isn't overpowered or worth having a strategy on because

LCS also depends highly on counters and specific strategies. The current strategies do ot include yasuo and because of him being hard countered by enough champions he is simply not picked.

So he has counters, We need to get better at the game, adapt, learn more because there are COUNTERS to Yasuo, Proof is that best players of league of legends acknowledge that by knowing Yasuo is not worth having a strategy on because he doesn't have the strength or team power to lead them to victory due to COUNTERS

& another thing to note that is if Yasuo is as strong as you have been saying in SOLOQ then why does he not have a win rate of 80-90%? Why is he sitting at a 49-50% win rate from time to time in SoloQ ladder? Why is he not permanently banned if he is such a 100% automatic victory for the team that has Yasuo in SoloQ ladder?