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Mark/Dash in ARAMs is Going to Destroy Balance

Mandaari··3 votes·1,176 views

Adding Mark/Dash is an awful idea and it's going to destroy any notion of balance that ARAM has. The vast majority of those champions that you're targeting by adding M/D don't have a problem because they can't get into a fight. They have a problem early game because they can't poke, and if they do engage they're guaranteed to take damage that they'll have a hard time healing back. Adding M/D won't change that, but it'll make engages for everyone stupidly strong.

Imagine Galio, a champion that's already extremely strong in HA especially against all of those AP poke comps people think are OP. He's going to have a jokingly easy and low cooldown way to get ults off. Same thing with Alistar, Kat, Amumu, Fid, Maokai, etc. There are so many champions that are already extremely strong that are going to get pushed way over the top by M/D. In return you're giving champion you think are weak a tool they didn't need.

Meanwhile, you're adding Warmog's which is going to make giants belt double rejuv starts extremely good. That helps the weak early game that melees have while making tank late games even stronger than they are. Adding Warmog's is the correct way to make melee stronger all around, especially early. That being said, adding M/D with Warmog's is way over the top. It's like your balancers made two separate changes and didn't coordinate with each other.

Finally, M/D wasn't the thing that made champions like Akali ridiculously strong in Poro King. It was mostly To The King because divers could dive way further than they should be able to get away with and just return back to the king. It basically gave everyone the second activation of Zed's ult.

For all of you that think melee are hopelessly weak in ARAM, here's some help for you. You are weak early game, but almost unanimously strong late game if you don't feed. Start regen (lifesteal/spell vamp if you can make use of it). Stall the game out until you get stronger by wave clearing. Sometimes that means waiting until 6; sometimes it means waiting until 2+ items; sometimes it means waiting until level 16. You are going to lose your first tower eventually, but the longer it takes for the other team to get the tower without getting any kills the stronger you're going to be later. Don't waste your skills on losing poke trades, especially if it means you're poking instead of wave clearing. If your team needs help engaging have someone rush Righteous Glory. In most cases someone should rush Locket. You have plenty of options for engaging already. M/D isn't going to help. It's going to make things worse for you by making already strong picks stronger.

The only extremely frustrating and forever one sided scenario is a strong poke comp with a lot of zone CC that can kite back any engage easily. These are incredibly rare and should not be balanced around. The only thing you should be doing to stop this is to make it even less likely by unlocking all champions in ARAM.

No offense Riot, but I don't think your ARAM balancers are ARAM players. Most of the changes you make on ARAM seem like something an SR player who plays ARAM on occasion and puts no effort into actually learning the game would do. Do not balance around those players. Balance around non-ARAM-smurf players that play ARAM nearly exclusively and know how to play difficult comps.

If you actually want to help melee early games here are a few things that would actually help:

  • Add shields to the outer turrets for the first few minutes of the game. This stops heavy ranged comps from pushing down your tower immediately while not punishing pushing later on.

  • Increase the health gain of the back health relics. If you're winning you have to walk back to get the health relic and lose out on pressure. If you're stuck under your turret you don't miss much.

  • Increase the effectiveness of lifesteal on melee champions for the first few minutes of the game.

All that being said, I do have (mostly positive) feedback for the other changes that I'll put in a reply.

19 Comments

Mandaari2 votes

I like the Warmog's and BT additions.

Sanguine blade was a strong rush item, but it was nearly all around weaker than other lifesteal items. I expect there will still be a worthwhile decision about picking Essence Reaver vs BT. ER is much stronger in HA than in SR since the CDR and mana sustain is much more important. That being said, there is no longer a cheap lifesteal item.

Warmog's was the correct answer to weak melee/tank early games, though I expect it'll be a little strong on tanks. With health regen becoming a function of base health regen tanks became stronger past level 3 or 4 (which you start at on HA) and much stronger late game.

Something I'd like to see addressed related to Warmog's is allied healing. Healing was extremely strong, but it's not the only reason healers were so strong. Sona, mainly, was strong because she is constantly giving 5 man auras. Her heal costs 80 mana at level 1 and heals allies for 16, yet she still has a crazy high win rate. Healing has been nerfed to the point that it's really just unsatisfying, especially if you're killing yourself as Soraka. I'd like to see an experiment with Urf's approach to healing:

MORELLO'S REVENGE: All direct healing effects are 50% less effective at the beginning of the game, increasing by 1% every 30 seconds (Up to 100% effective at 25 minutes)

The reason I'd like to see this now is because allied healing has gotten gutted while self healing has been immensely buffed. A 50% gap is healing effectiveness was IMO over the top without Warmog's. Adding Warmog's is the tipping point that make the 50% gap too big. Additionally, having the effectiveness of allied healing ramp up will parallel high regen build paths without being overpowering early on.

DrNova2 votes

Just go with it.

Yonag2 votes

I play arams only, 1000+ wins, mark/dash ended arams for me! This is by far the stupidest addition to the main game. Bring back poro king for those that like it, but the balance is so F...ed up its not worth playing as an aram.

It is a Shame, you buy champs, skins, enjoy game and this B.S?

done with aram until its removed, if not removed , done with league. Time to dota i guess, will be testing it out until gone or until it becomes permanent.

Stupid!

Played 2 games with it, enough for me. Did poro enough ot get icons and that was it, didnt like it there, dont like it in aram.

YOu want aram to be good? make ranked arams. You made a move to make it more like SR, well then make it like SR and get rid of this BS spell.

Mandaari1 votes

Same. 1.1K wins. First game all I see is snowball spam.

HotS beta key looking pretty nice right about now.

Erockandroll1 votes

The whole throw/dash, was taken from the Legend of the poro King featured game mode. it basically has the same affect as summoner 31 only without the stacking points for summoning the king.

And that didn't particularly change or Break certain champions. I'd say it's a good spell to add.

Mandaari2 votes

Elaborate exactly on why you think it's a good spell to add.

Edit: And yes it did change and break a LOT of champions.

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

I like the idea. If you dash in you are stuck there and can't teleport to a poro king, so its a good "all in" sort of idea unless you have a decent escape. Not to mention if someone is marked they can go back to turrets, or hide behind minions in the first place. I recall deliberately letting myself get hit sometimes to run back to the second turret when I knew the other player would be foolish enough to dash to me. Plus, poke teams are NO FUN to play against when most of your team is lacking in pokes, or even if just you are unlucky to not have a poke in which mostly you have to just avoid getting hit and trying to do what you can.

Mandaari1 votes

Like I said, lack of initiation isn't an issue. I'll use Jax as an example. Early on he has no problem getting a stun combo off and starting a fight for his team, but even if they win the fight they can't take full advantage of it. The first problem is that a full melee team can't push turrets after winning a teamfight unless it's a clean ace or anyone that remains can't stop your team from pushing. That's rare until later in the game. The second problem is that you're going to have a hard time getting health back after a fight. Ranged are less likely to take damage and can lifesteal back up. It's more likely that melee will take damage in a fight and less likely that they'll be free to lifesteal afterwards. Finally, those early fights are when most melees are weaker in teamfights. You wouldn't expect a Ryze to carry an early game fight, so why would you expect a Jax perform well early?

Notice that not a single one of those issues is about inability to initiate.

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

Jax still has a range limit on his initiation that may be tricky against anyone with a poke, and if he tries to hide in a bush a lot of champs can poke him safely as they can hit him untargetted but he can't leap to them unless he can target them. You CAN build life steal or other health regen items on a melee champion if you like to heal up after a team fight just like a ranged champion, though melee will need to consider speed and defensive options with a little more urgency than a ranged player. Also do not forget that the toss/dash will not be required to play as, and if you do not want/need it you do not have to get it.

Mandaari1 votes

If you have bush control then you shouldn't be taking poke, or your team should be in a position to punish poke. If you're sitting in a bush taking Ziggs bombs constantly that's your fault, not Jax's.

Yes, you can build lifesteal or health regen on melee champions, but if you're in the situation where you're complaining about your inability to do anything then lifesteal isn't going to help. Health regen will, and that's why I said Warmog's was a good addition.

I'm well aware dash till not be required, but it's too strong on way too many champions. On the PBE it's still a 20 second cooldown and reduced by 25% if it hits. It's available to everyone, including champions that have no business getting another way to initiate. Like I said, the strength gain for already strong champions is going to overpower the strength gain for melees.

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

Poke does not normally require targetting, or in many cases even much aim. Chances are they can still poke you while you are in a bush wether they are in a bush or not, and that you will likely be out of range(or unable to target them in a few cases) or do anything else about them. I agree on that warmogs and bloodthirster will be good to help champions out in ARAM How is it too strong? If you hide behind minions you will be alright, and if you get hit run under turret, and if you are scared: run under a second turret. Or consider that most of the time when you are hit by poros that means your team is not distracted by the enemy and should be able to more easily focus on the isolated enemy.

Mandaari1 votes

Again, if you're sitting in the bush and still taking poke, targetted or not, that's your fault. Stand in the back so you have time to dodge. Anticipate the poke, don't just react to it.

If you get hit with a poro and it's a poro worth taking then why would anyone wait long enough to let you walk under turret? It's a 3 second wait on a 20 second cooldown. Do you really want Alistar, Galio, and Amumu to be able to gap close that easily before ulting? Like I said, those are the champions that are going to be way too strong. Champions like Jax aren't going to get much stronger because, again, initiating fights is not their problem.

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

So just anticipate it comming at you? Sort of like the poro tosses. I admit I have not had problems with those champions in poro king before, but I am certain that if you cannot anticipate their poros or measures to get back under turret or by team safely then I suppose you have to hope they do not get those 3 champions in their champion rolls.

Mandaari1 votes

M/D can still hit minions. Not exactly the same situation as sitting still in a bush.

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

So you can hide behind minions, and you can more easily and safely check bushes with this new spell. You just pointed out yourself that pokes are not a problem as you should be able to avoid it. As I recall the new spell IS just a long range poke you can dash to. In addition you confirmed that you can hide behind minions to avoid this as well. Not to mention the chances of getting one of the few champs you fear will get this new spell are likely to be significantly smaller than the chances of getting a decent ARAM champion in general.

Mandaari1 votes

Sitting in a bush dodging spears and shit while you wait to engage isn't the same as this spell at all. My point of saying that it can hit minions is that you can dash to the minions as well. Coming back from base on Amumu while your team is holding your tower? You hit your Mark on anyone or anything and it's pretty much a guaranteed good ult.

Champions that synergize with M/D:

  • Alistar
  • Amumu
  • Annie
  • Braum
  • Cho
  • Mundo
  • Eve (needs it)
  • Fiddlesticks
  • Galio
  • Garen (needs it)
  • Gnar
  • Gragas
  • Hecarim
  • J4
  • Jax (debatably needs it)
  • Suicidal Karthus
  • Kennen
  • Leona
  • Lissandra
  • Malphite
  • Maokai
  • Morgana
  • Nautilus
  • Nunu
  • Pantheon
  • Poppy (debatably needs it)
  • Rammus (needs it)
  • Rek'Sai
  • Renekton
  • Sejuani
  • Shen
  • Shyvana (needs it)
  • Singed
  • Sion
  • Skarner
  • Sona
  • Talon
  • Thresh
  • Trundle
  • Udyr (needs it)
  • Vi
  • Vlad
  • Volibear
  • Wukong
  • Xin Zhao
  • Zac

That's almost half the champion base. Among them are 7 champions that actually need the engage that M/D will provide.

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

Pretty sure dodging things like Morgana's Q, Nidalle's Spear, etc. IS a skillshot that has more or less the SAME sort of skills required to dodge the snowball comming at your face in a skill shot. Keep in mind along with dodging the snowball and other skillshots: anticipation is important. If they hit a minion and you are already on a roll with your anticipation skills: Move away or set a trap for that location incase they decide to dive. Make them think twice. You essentially listed all of them regardless of how useful this spell may or may not appear for them. Like Rek'sai? Rek'sai has tunnels and doesn't even have any menacing skills like amumu's ult which STILL places them isolated and vulnerable to getting 5v1. In that case where we are listing more than half the roster as you say: "Is there really a threat if your team has just as equal chance of getting those champs as the enemy team?"

Mandaari1 votes

Yes, it's the same kind of skillshot as a binding, but with much more reward. Having a tank reposition into or close to their team is a more rewarding than landing a binding, which is already rewarding. That's like comparing landing an Ashe ult to landing a Caitlyn Q.

I listed everyone that will benefit from the spell in some meaningful way to show that the people that need it most are by far the minority. Like you said, champions like Rek'Sai already have ways of getting into fights, but guaranteeing a good position to unburrow helps. All of the champions that hugely benefit from it, like Amumu, are already very strong. And are you really going to say Amumu landing an ult "place [him] isolated and vulnerable to getting 5v1"? Don't reactive the spell if your team can't follow up.

"Is there really a threat if your team has just as equal chance of getting those champs as the enemy team?"

Again, not the point I'm making. My point is that M/D makes all the wrong champions stronger and almost none of the ones it was targeted at stronger. Let's all say these poke comps everyone perceives as impossible to win against are really that good. There are a lot of champions that fit on those comps, but it's OK because you're just as likely to get those champs as your opponent. Is that really how you want balance? Mutually statistically probable destruction? You're also likely to end up getting the same melee comps that don't get much of anything from M/D and complain anyway, so why put M/D in in the first place?

Yulen Xoshxius1 votes

That is true, there is POTENTIALLY more advantage of landing it than most skill shots, sort of like how Ashe's Arrow hitting in middle of a team is decent. HOWEVER, not every champion has a skill like this to make such potential. Not to mention even tanks can be killed with enough CC and focusing. You can list ALL champions because ALL champions can use this to some degree of capability. Even someone as squishy and uneeded in the middle of a fight like Soraka, who albeit squishy can use it to do a desperate chase or to try and escape another foe who is after them(to escape towards one that is unprepared). So EVERYONE has some sort of potental, some more than others. Sort of like the current summoner spells. You talked about team follow up? This isn't one team vs a brick wall. Your team AND the enemy team constantly change movements, so simply having one team ready to dive with the spell does not mean it will be way different than diving WITHOUT the spell except the distance it will cover. Amumu can ALREADY do something like the toss except instantly and over a shorter distance, yet he can be managed. Other champions with gap closers can be managed as well. If they dive your team its more or less the same as before except you can anticipated it in 3+ seconds or less(due to travel time of the toss) and over a longer distance. If they are the type to dive quickly: you don't have time to position for them truthfully, but neither can their team. If they check first to make sure their team is in position: you can get in position too. AS I said before it makes ALL champs stronger to varying degress, but more or less the playstyle is more or less the same except over larger distances, more frequently, and by more champions. Currently ARAM IS about probability and often the team composition and duration of a game determines who will win. Adding another CONTROLABLE factor to both sides benefeits BOTH sides however: providing more options and counter play. If your champions do not benefeit from the spell: Don't get it. If they do: Get it.

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