Its been (atleast) two seasons of damage being too high.

GigglesO·Oct 21, 2017·11 votes·462 views

What ever happened to being able to play a tanky champion toplane and go "oh I'm being ganked" walk back to tower.

Now its literally oh I'm being ganked, guess I may as well get up make a cup of tea and have some cookies while I wait for the respawn timer.

Walk back to lane.

Proceed to afk under tower and lose cs because 1 death pretty much determines lane.

Wait for the 20 minute finish...

And if you think games last longer than 20 minutes, you are kidding yourself. For that matter most plat games are decided in the first 10 minutes. I've seen games higher than 1 death/minute, and regularly play in them for that matter.

23 Comments

SwiftKitten88Oct 21, 20172 votes

i feel like this thread is beyond obvious.. but here is your +1

GigglesOOct 21, 20172 votes

But if you look at the comment below us asking for champions to 1 shot each other no, no it is not obvious.

{quoted}

The only problem is that towers are too weak, and the game often snowballs from that.

Damage itself isn't too high, at least if you don't want another Tank META which was by far the worst META to this day. I would take a META with everybody oneshotting everything over that anytime.

The thing you described has always been like that in melee top lane matchups, that has nothing to do with damage being too high.

ShadòwOct 21, 20171 votes

and that's bad why? people will actually get punished for misstepping.

you still have work to do to OS somebody, but there is nothing wrong with champions being able to OS some non-tank if they play it right.

do you really believe Tank META is better where nobody dies unless you get 20 rotations on them, and tanks could do what they want?

PennsOct 21, 20172 votes

Yes because people think you get punished for bad positioning more in a tank meta and it makes the game more strategical than braindead "i oneshot you"

lel

GigglesOOct 21, 20171 votes

Tank metas should actually be more forgiving. The issue is is these "tank metas" that we keep having are atrocities. They do Nuke level damage, with high level safety.

ShadòwOct 21, 20172 votes

The only problem is that towers are too weak, and the game often snowballs from that.

Damage itself isn't too high, at least if you don't want another Tank META which was by far the worst META to this day. I would take a META with everybody oneshotting everything over that anytime.

The thing you described has always been like that in melee top lane matchups, that has nothing to do with damage being too high.

GigglesOOct 21, 20172 votes

Ummm it has nothing to do with melee matchups, if you remember back in Season 1, when we had a heal + adc meta tanks were still kill-able. The difference is that damage was lower back then. That is why champions had 4-6 second cc's. Have you never experienced, or read about season 1 morganna snares/rammus taunts? Damage was low enough that there was enough time to revive and rejoin the teamfight... That is also why games lasted 1.5 hours or more... but legit, we are pretty far away from a tank meta, or at least what a tank meta should look like.

The shit we have now is a damage meta with champions being too tanky for how much damage they deal.

ShadòwOct 21, 20171 votes

And now guess why Season 1 is called a shitfest of balance.

People being able to rejoin fights that last over a minute? no ty.

GigglesOOct 21, 20171 votes

So season 7 hasn't been called a shitfest of balance. Lul adc, adc op, tank op, assasin op, support op, welcome to the league of ardent censor....

Oh yea keep telling me this season was somehow better than the last seasons.

ShadòwOct 21, 20171 votes

ADCs have always been a problem, and Assassins were only OP because Lethality was.

And then we have Ardent Censor. Especially with all this heal and shield BS, can you tell me how you should be able to kill any ADC in a hypercarry comp anymore if Damage would be lowered? As it is right now they can already facetank almost everything. With even less damage they will outsustain and outdamage everyone even more.

GigglesOOct 21, 20171 votes

You just proved my point about how 2017 is a shitfest for balance.

Azazel AerternumOct 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You just proved my point about how 2017 is a shitfest for balance.

Appears to me that you were attempting to play Mordekaiser as a tank...which he is not.

It's kind of odd that you think he is one though.

Other than that, the banner of command on Mordekaiser is a pretty sketchy buy, and you get it a lot. It's roughly an efficient item, offering decent stats and two usable passives, however it's more or less dead gold on a champion that scales particularly hard, and is almost useless without, heavy amounts of AP. It's very rare that you should actually need the item, it offers no real combat stats beyond the armor and MR, the health regen isn't that useful in of itself. The CDR isn't bad, but there were other items you could have gone with to obtain the same amount of CDR.

It appears that you've played almost two thousand games this season, so I'd assume you would know this, especially with the number of Mordekaiser games, but it's just not as efficient a buy. Gunblade, Liandry's, Rylais, even Protobelt would have all been options that are far more efficient in terms of stats you actually need.

I'm very confused by you always rushing banner of command, it really makes 0 sense in context. You complain about other champions having 'too high damage', but Mordekaiser has an extremely strong laning phase compared to most other champions. He can outsustain them, and typically outscales almost all. His 1v1's are difficult to play against due to the ease and repeated nature of his poking leaving his opponents at a perpetual disadvantage, and he can quite easily turn a losing game into a winning game by catching out a fed ADC or similar champion and using their ghost to wipe the enemy team, or likewise, can benefit by gaining extensive tankiness or bonus AP depending on the champion he slays with his ultimate. It's base damage is high, and if built right, can inflict truly massive damage to a target, even a tank.

You have some weird builds, and rather low winrates on all of your champions except two that you have over thirty games on, only Blitzcrank and Mordekaiser, of which Mordekaiser you currently have a 44% winrate on out of the last 16 matches as. The rest of these champions, Xin Zhao, Twitch, Cho'Gath, Garen, Sona, Nasus, and Vladimir, all with over 30 games played on, are sub 50% winrates. It could just be that your builds are bad, or that you don't understand how to play against or into certain matchups, or really how other champions work.

As for ganking, with the number of games you've played, surely you know that around the 2:30 mark is when you should drop a ward and expect a visit by the enemy jungler? You know when to, and not to, push a wave, and how to judge whether or not you and your jungler win a 2v2?

If you know the enemy top is leashing their jungler, and that it is an Ezreal, you can be pretty sure that the enemy Ezreal is literally going to come top to cheese you while you're level 1, as he's an early game jungler that is extremely snowball-reliant. This is true particularly and most specifically in games for which the enemy jungle's red is their top-side buff (when you are on the bottom half of the map).

A Shyvana is unlikely to gank you, she is a rather weak early game jungler that usually prefers to farm rather than go off in attempts to gank lanes, as she lacks CC and therefore her ganks are unreliable. What does this mean? If she's on your team, you can't expect her to be able to go toe to toe with an aggressive, early game Jungler, who will most certainly win out the fight and punish you hard in a 2v2. And if on the enemy team, the best expectation is that you are not in significant danger of a gank, as she is not going to have the ability to catch you, unless the laner has heavy cc and you're not properly positioning yourself in lane or have the wave out of position (i.e. at the enemy's turret w/o wards against a Shen).

Lee Sin is very likely to gank lanes commonly, and will attempt to go top if he can, especially versus something like 'Tank Mordekaiser', who has no escapes and is probably auto-shoving the wave, and therefore out of position. Early game even more so, repeated ganks are likely to be met with success, if he can force out your flash or kill you, then you have to respect his pressure, as he is likely to camp for you to return to lane and do heavy damage or even kill you, or gank you once you are back in lane.

The majority of real tanks, do have some survivability in lane, and typically have mobility or counter mobility, of which Mordekaiser has none. Cho'Gath can silence or knockup targets that are attempting to close in on him. Galio can taunt and reduce damage taken for a bit, he has a dash available to escape if the enemy is not standing on top of him or in the way. Shen can dash, etc. Their mobility is limited, but if your positioning is proper, your warding adequate, then there is no real chance of you being caught out in early lane, at least not if you are paying attention. The only real chance would be the enemy jungle doing a lane-gank by hiding, though as you are presumably not blindly shoving the wave like a bot into tower over and over, this won't work well for them. In the time they're waiting for you to go out of position, you'll likely have leveled up, and if you are paying attention, should have noticed that your enemy has not leveled up despite having comparable CS killed around them, which means that someone is or has been leeching XP from them. Ergo, assume someone is, and just play safe. Tanks aren't meant to go all out in lane and snowball out of control for kills, I can't really imagine a circumstance in which you would want to constantly hardshove the wave, so you shouldn't be. Just play safe and wait to scale up the later the game goes, midgame is where tanks with even gold to carries are extremely strong by comparison.

If I know I beat the enemy laner and can zone them off of cs, and I know where the other players are on the map, or have my jungler in position to gank or counter-gank, then that is the only real time I shove the wave off from my tower. I force the enemy to overextend constantly rather than being overextended myself, and in these situations I typically deny CS while ahead. If significantly ahead or versus an enemy that is going to struggle to farm under tower, and who I can trade into for free while they are farming, to look for a kill or deny more CS, then I do it. This is not going to really happen on most tanks, this is really only applicable on Bruisers.

I could understand if you were a Darius main who didn't understand wave management, but Mordekaiser isn't a tank, and honestly has no real reason to hard shove the wave. He scales well, and doesn't rely on a snowball while behind or ahead, so he can quite comfortably and safely farm out his opponent. There's no rush to get an advantage, as taking the risk that is required to generate a lead can quite easily put you behind instead. On something like Darius you don't really mind the risk, you will cut down almost any laner, and likewise against Junglers. If in a 1v2, even early, as Darius you will quite easily turn it and wipe both, there are only a few exceptions to this rule, and they are mainly you being simply outplayed or having consistently made mistakes. Darius has high pressure in lane, is a lane bully that can not only deny CS, but has high kill pressure in lane, while being a lane that typically the jungler will avoid for fear of giving him a double kill. Mordekaiser can be properly played as a lane bully without real kill pressure, he can poke you out of lane while freezing the wave, which is typically what you should be doing. Prioritizing a Rylais and Liandry's as your core items for consistent DPS on your ultimate, while still giving you solid solo fighting power and overall higher teamfight pressure. This allows you to kite, and to avoid being kited. Taking a gunblade into specific matchups, though this is usually not as reliable as the alternatives, it does offer Spell vamp, though rather limited as his Q counts for the effects of spell vamp as an AoE ability if I remember right.

If you're building your champion wrong, I don't think you have a place to complain about how 'strong' other champions are. He's not intended to be a tank, his kit is not built with a tank in mind. At best he can be a bruiser, if you were so inclined, but in that case you might as well play something that is better at being a Bruiser or a Tank. Shen is going to have far better map presence and is a tank, Darius is going to have great damage in and out of lane, while being a significant threat to the enemy team. The only real reason to keep playing Mordekaiser while as a tank would be against a Hypercarry, and attempting to take their clone and using it while having survived the teamfight. The issue being, if your team is relying on you to do reasonable damage, and you don't build offensive stats, especially early where he is rather potent, then not only will your ultimate do comparably less damage, but you won't be nearly as effective as you could be.

Due to his passive, he already has immense survivability in teamfights, it's better to improve on his inherent strengths rather than attempting to ignore both strengths and weaknesses to fulfill the 'need' of a tank in which matches a tank is not necessarily needed. You have a Darius, a Rammus, in the match I'm referencing, and for the life of me I can't understand what possessed you to go 'full tank Mordekaiser'.

Following build you will likely have far more success with: item 3116 item 3151 w/ Deathfire Touch

Rest is situation, after those items, if you are so inclined, grab a Gargoyle Stoneplate and a stack tank. But, you at least need those two items and deathfire touch.

Why? DFT inflicts massive persistent damage, the bonus damage is high over the duration of your ultimate, and the fact that anything you do can trigger it. Why these items? They allow you to shred tanks and squishy targets.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

If you havent played banner + rift herald + dragon and pushed three towers + inhib as morde then you haven't had fun on morde.

Also, you mention that morde isn't a tank, damn straight he isn't a tank, neither is garen, and yet you see him utilize tank items. So ask yourself this, why must other classes be made of tissue paper to play the game. Also, not even the pro's and challengers are using rylis to kite anymore. If you know nothing about the champ other than what you assume he should be maybe you should stop spouting garbage.

Its pretty rich that you know all of this as a gold player, not to mention that I play most of my games as botlane, and build banner to help losing midlane.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

https://youtu.be/vYDiF1wIUvY

Try watching this... oh yea bonus MS and tank stats def questionable purchase.

btw, I had already gotten two mid towers because of dragon + banner soooo yea.... just because you don't know what someone is doing doesn't mean you should criticize them.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

Btw, incase you didn't know, it also takes teammates to win games. It doesn't matter what you do if you aren't having fun, if you go 0/5 or 5/0 it doesn't make that much difference in plat. I got one of my friends (via duoing) to plat on a 23/36 game just the other night. Also have you ever thought that I sometimes just play random shit in random lanes? Tried out 4-5 ashe mid games the other day, didn't go so well...

I was trying to do some garen adc, urgot jungle, and ect too... those didn't worth the best either but w/e its just a game.

ShadòwOct 22, 20171 votes

It is, but lowering damage is definitely NOT the solution to it, because of said points.

Towers need to get buffed and enchanter supports + ADC items nerfed.

SwiftKitten88Oct 21, 20172 votes

tank metas are also shit.. stop pretending that by asking for a nerf to damage we want a "tank meta"

we don't need to swap from one horrid extreme to another, we want BALANCE

a "tank meta" by definition means that tank are not only the tankiest champsions but the biggest threat and the highest damage dealers.

and that is just as shit as ADC meta

burst > sustain > tank > burst

NOT "tank > everything" and CERTAINLY NOT "adc get sustained burst > everything"

GigglesOOct 21, 20172 votes

Which is the issue, because I don't want a tank meta, I just want to be able to play and not die due to some random splash damage that wasn't even aimed at me.

PePsiLemoNNOct 21, 20171 votes

RIGHT!!!?1?11? Tanks should take no damage at all. Give them all a passive that makes them invulnerable if there are more than 0.5 enemy champs nearby.

GigglesOOct 21, 20171 votes

Thats not what this post is about. I just want to see a shift in power, just reduce damage across the board on all champions by 5-10% and see where we line up for how it feels to play. It could even be a special game mode.

Azazel AerternumOct 22, 20171 votes

Wow, I didn't realize that you couldn't get Dragon or Rift Herald without Banner of Command, what an unexpected change, it must have occurred, what, minutes ago? Either that, or something might be kinda odd here, as I still don't see exactly how building Banner of Command will give you a free Dragon or Rift Herald.

If you are stacking resists early like that on a champion that requires damage in order to properly deal consistent pressure in teamfights then you are quite simply gimping yourself. When you lose, you lose hard. When your team is behind, you stay behind. When you don't have damage, level advantage, or friendly jungle pressure, you will quite simply lose the match. I'm basing this off the fact that the only matches you appear to win are the ones in which your team does well as a whole, while unilaterally losing matches in which you get behind or your teammates do not perform well.

Banner of Command on Mordekaiser as opposed to, Rylais for a perma slow to catch out the enemy when combined with your ultimate. A hextech gunblade to sustain better against the enemy while still gaining reasonably efficient stats, and a decent active. Liandry's to burn down a target that is stacking health, like a Cho'Gath, or a Sejuani who typically takes health items instead of resists relying on her passive instead, most specifically early.

So to help your midlaner, your idea is to drop an empowered minion into their lane which will make their last hitting more difficult, and forcibly shove the wave into enemy tower, after which or during it might even be frozen out there as a result, allowing the enemy midlaner to easily freeze out and deny your mid farm? If they're already struggling, all this would do is force them to overextend if they want farm, so no, it doesn't really make any sort of sense at all, nor does your rationalization of it or derogatory comments. Oh no, this account is Gold, how dare I come up with a reasonably thought out and correct set of statements regarding what I observed from your gameplay history and builds. How dare I state that not only is your build non-meta, which is not really as much an issue, rather that it has gross inefficiencies which are why it's non-viable.

I suppose next you'll hop onto an ADC to say that building LDR first helps you shred the early armor your opponent buys, rather than, well items that would deal substantial damage or scale together. Or maybe you'll buy a Zz'rot portal, we all know how much Caitlyn could benefit from a Zz'rot.

Oddly enough, on Veigar you didn't first item a Sunfire Cape, quite odd indeed. You definitely could have used the HP and armor, and the passive isn't too bad either, perhaps next game? Oh wait, you're saying a damage carry builds damage items, no way! Wait, you're saying that you waited until you had purchased items to help you stay viable in lane and scale first, before building solely resists or similar items, as that would better allow you to stay competitive and relevant?

I wouldn't have been surprised to see you taking something like 'Courage of the Colossus' for those 'massive extra shields man', and then rushing a Zz'Rot or Banner of Command on Veigar.

Let's see, I can invest my first 4,000 gold into an item that won't see much efficiency beyond resistances, and then the rest of the gold I invest into components of an offensive item that increases my ability to do something. Or, I could use those same resources instead to complete Hextech Gunblade, and begin working on specific components for an item to counter the opponents team comp or begin work on a most particularly needed item (merc treads vs heavy cc, ninja tabis vs fed auto reliant carry, zhonyas if against a fed assassin).

But you're absolutely right, just because I don't understand something, and find it's inherent and potential premise or reasoning lacking, means I'm not allowed to flat out criticize someone's builds and then throw into question their reliability as a discussion starter, after the person opens up the discussion by saying that 'tanks are not viable' b/c everyone deals damage, and getting caught out gets you killed. Yes, playing a champion without mobility, and not properly positioning yourself, you are likely to die in a gank. I'll have to head to Bronze V for my builds now, where they're rushing Ardent Censer Thunderlords on Yi, as I'm sure that that will be the new meta. I mean I'm sure that the Yi knows why they're building that item, taking that Mastery, and how to play the game quite well. And as you said, it's not my place to cast doubt on the viability of such an outlandish and irrational build, as I simply don't understand what he's planning. And god-forbid, if that Yi were to then start a post declaiming that X champion or role was overpowered or unfair, then in which situation I should of course not be permitted to vocalize nor lament his building and set up as the actual cause for concern, and that it represents a lack of the more core and basic game knowledge and mechanics.

But surely, I must instead bow to thee whose ego is only unmatched by thy lackluster winrate.

The Hardstuck Plat with 3,171 Ranked Games as Mordekaiser, according to op.gg over your seasons, though that number may not have been updated for extremely recent games so most likely still under 3,200 games as Mordekaiser in ranked.

You're definitely stuck for a reason, and no it's not because of <insert my teammates, the meta, meanies that won't hard carry me, etc.>.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

I did most damage to champs that game... I also tend to do very high damage to champs while building very little. You should do some research on your champions.

GigglesOOct 22, 20171 votes

So you want to keep touting about how you are gold, and you want to look down on me for being plat, and enjoying doing things that are out of the normal. Yea keep telling me about your feelings, and how you only wish you were plat. Get it out buddy, you will feel better about yourself.