Revive, Clarity, Clairvoyance - can't we make them useful?

EnvyDragon··13 votes·2,004 views

I think Clarity/CV/Revive need to be looked at in terms of their goals and purposes in order to make them worthwhile. Nobody takes them. Ever. But I believe that they COULD be made interesting, with a bit of work. Pretty much everyone can see the issues with them, but... meh. I had a free evening and felt like theorycrafting.

Clarity: When you run out of health, you die. It's a big setback. That's why Heal is a useful summoner spell - at the last second, you can tactically restore an ally's health (or your own) to avert death, allowing for big plays. Running out of mana is nowhere near as significant - it means you can't cast most spells for a couple of seconds. Taking Clarity is only ever going to be a gradual mana-sustain measure, and in that case, why not just take potions or grab Chalice?

If the goal is for Clarity to enhance a team's ability usage by reducing costs, it fails because there are other ways to do this that work better and don't require a summoner slot.

Here's a suggestion for a version of Clarity that allows for big plays, has potentially VERY visible effects, doesn't blindly improve mana sustain, and - most importantly - is worth a summoner spell.

Clarity 2.0: You and the allied champion nearest to your cursor can cast a single non-ultimate spell [U]for free, with no cooldown[/U] (or significantly reduced cooldown), during the next 3 seconds.

Next!

Clairvoyance: The presence of the blue trinket alone makes this summoner spell redundant. Even then, nobody takes the blue trinket. One little spotlight of vision every minute or two isn't worth a summoner slot. It isn't even worth a trinket! (My thoughts on the blue trinket should probably go in another thread, but w/e.)

The idea here, I think, is that you can cast CV to see if an enemy is hiding in a given bush, or if there's anyone coming down one of your gank paths, or if an objective is under attack... but wards can do all of those things. In fact, wards usually do them better.

Every other summoner spell in the game can be used to facilitate big plays. CV can't. Vision is useful, but you can't kill someone with vision. So if you want CV to be useable in big plays, it has to have a much broader use...

Clairvoyance 2.0: Highlights areas of the minimap that contain enemy champions without specifying WHICH champions are there, and without specifically locating said champions. This is more of a "there is an enemy in purple spawn" or "there is an enemy in west jungle" sort of thing - I picture a yellowish haze around a whole section of the minimap. Enemies visible at time of casting, or enemies found up to 5 seconds after, reduce the spell's cooldown.

This one needs a bit of explaining. It doesn't have much moment-to-moment skill requirement, but knowing that you aren't in danger of getting ganked when you want to go in in lane is a big deal. Casting it before a teamfight can tell you whether or not this 5v4 will become a 5v5 any time soon. Entire enemy team is MIA? Better cast this to find out if anyone's near baron. The cooldown reduction mechanism means that it's smarter to cast it when there are fewer MIAs, or when you're just trying to verify an enemy's location; blind-casting is going to cost you in terms of opportunity.

And finally...

Revive: The big reason nobody really takes this is because it has a friggin' 9-minute cooldown. Coming back to life instantly is huge, especially lategame when you have 60-second-plus death timers, so it's certainly worth a summoner slot, but when you have so few chances to use it... Well, most people would probably prefer something they can use at a moment's notice.

The reason it NEEDS a 9-minute cooldown, sadly, is because - like I said - coming back to life is HUGE. Death needs to have an impact. Death is also binary; either you're dead, or you're not. Reducing the cooldown of Revive means you need to reduce the power of the spell, and you can't make yourself less "respawned" with this spell.

Or can you...?

Revive 2.0a: After a 3-second casting time (including a gamewide ping at the location announcing to both teams that you're using Revive), you respawn AT YOUR CORPSE with 50hp and no armor or magic resistance, and with a 50% reduction in all damage output. Any minions, monsters, or towers automatically attack you if you are in threat-range. Over the next x seconds (depending on level... probably 10-30 second curve), damage and resistances will recover completely, and your health will increase to 50% of its maximum, provided you aren't killed again in the meantime.

The fact that you don't spawn at your base and you don't have a speed buff means this is less versatile; this is Revive in the sense of cancelling your death, not in the sense of hastening your respawn. If you cast it, you need to make sure you'll be safe on recovery; death while tower-diving means you won't be reviving, you can't expect to revive to win a lost battle, and god help you if the enemy team has a Karthus. But it means that in the midst of a teamfight, your team could feasibly plan around you being able to come back, assuming they can keep your mostly-dead self intact long enough to do something.

But a miracle's a miracle, am I right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yokQ0_8__ts Pictured: mostly-dead champion, post revive2.0a.

There's also option B, which is much more tried-and-true:

Revive 2.0b: You come back to life at spawn, yada yada yada. Except that in addition to the spell going on cooldown... based on the amount of time spent dead, the amount of time since the last cast, and the character's level, you have to pay a GOLD COST to come back to life!

Okay, this is literally just buyback from Dota/Dota2. But hey, it works there, right? And while buyback isn't universal in League, I'd say it might be worth giving up a summoner slot to get it.

And if it sucks, well, you don't have to take it. Just like Clarity/CV/Revive are on Live right now.

23 Comments

Ironclad Dragon3 votes

Merge summoner 7 summoner 13 into "Rejuvenate".

EnvyDragon1 votes

This is a pretty popular idea, but I don't think it would work well in practice.

  1. Right now, Heal's speed buff gives it a few reeeeally nice use-cases outside of "heal when low". The fact that you can use it to force an advantageous engage after some poking/trading, and the fact that you can safe someone really effectively, make you much more reluctant to just cast it on low health.

That's the problem with just having a frequently available heal - it means one team is generally going to be more, well, healthy, with no real interaction involved. It means that you can sacrifice a summoner spell slot to ignore health management. That's not good for game health... uh, ironically.

If this was old Heal we're talking about, where you just make the bars go up on folks crowded around you, then yeah, merging Clarity into it would make sense. But on new Heal, how does mana restore factor into your goals in using the ability? Will a clutch mana increase help a teammate survive a skillshot? Not usually.

  1. Clarity cannot continue to exist as-is. Either it's strong enough for people to take it - which basically means you can ignore mana management, see above - or it's weak enough that nobody cares, and you only see it in low levels where people don't know how to pace their spellcasts or buy chalice of harmony.

But the goal of Clarity - reduce the resource burden to allow for more frequent ability use - is still a valid one. Instead of arbitrarily restoring mana, which gives each player an abstract number of extra spell casts, the version I suggested above means you have one free spellcast, right now. In the long run, it will work more or less the same; use it on poke, and you won't be wasting mana on poke, so your mana pool won't be empty as often. But in the short term, it means you have more tactical versatility too. It has the advantages of Live Clarity with some new, useful twists.

The only thing I would really worry about with that iteration of Clarity is someone like LeBlanc taking it midlane and just giving herself stupid amounts of burst... but it's a direction to look in. And hey, it makes more sense than Deathfire Grasp. Fuck that item.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

How about a summoner 21 summoner 1 hybrid?

EnvyDragon3 votes

I don't think those really mix either, to be honest. Barrier is something you want to use immediately BEFORE getting hit with a big attack. Cleanse is something you want to use immediately AFTER. If you combined the two, you'd end up with a single spell that you can't plan to use at a perfect moment.

Well... maybe.

Barrier 2.0: Provides a shield that scales with level and 65% tenacity for 3 seconds. In addition, the next disable (ie. anything Cleanse would remove) that impacts your champion is negated.

That's pretty nice, actually. Just sort of an overall grace period, and it removes the overlap with Heal (on Barrier's end) and Quicksilver Sash (on Cleanse's end). It's also proactive rather than reactive, which is never a bad thing. Yeah, thumbs up, I support this.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

That's what I was picturing, actually.

Hoi Im Temmo2 votes

You used a Princess Bride reference = upvoted. gj sir

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

I'm with this guy.

SpiderTeo2 votes

The title of this thread piqued my interest, since I'm a regular user of Clairvoyance. Hell, I get static all the time from players who think I'm only trolling when I take CV as the adc. But there is a method to my madness, and it is this unique perspective that I developed as a theory back in Season One, and was finally vindicated as common practice by the pros in that season's Finals. For me, I need as much intel as I can get for the upcoming contest. A major part of intel is map vision. Without map vision, a team is flying blind and either needs to turtle hard to prevent any losses or take high risks for even the smallest rewards. It is the difference between successful team fights and team wipes + loss objectives. And Clairvoyance provides the necessary information when the team is ready to make a play.

I use Clairvoyance as often as I need it when it comes up. That means potentially every minute, I can see any area on the map regardless of distance. It can be used to check on objectives such a Baron or Dragon. It is a damn useful alternative to face-checking. It can be used to help tracker the enemy jungler's movements. It can be used as a last second option when a ward expires to prevent any potential ganks. Similarly, it can be used to "spotlight" a running enemy champ to prevent her from escaping into the bush. Yes, the duration and area of exposure is not a whole lot, but even a little information can make a big difference in a team's strategy.

I know many of you probably don't agree, but so far no one has been able to give me a satisfactory reason not to choose Clairvoyance. The only justification other players can give me is that "I must be a total noob, or troll to get that spell." I assure you, I have been preventing ganks and securing kills with my use of Clairvoyance, whether my team cares to admit it or not.

Now there's a list of reasons why CV isn't useful. I'll take my turn to refute them in kind:

The presence of the blue trinket alone makes this summoner spell redundant.

The Scrying/Farsight Orb, or the blue trinket, is crap. Hell, in my opinion, most of the trinkets are crap (but that's another thread). It also does not make Clairvoyance redundant. First off, Scrying Orb (ScO) has a 2 minute cooldown and a very limited range of usage. CV has a 1 minute cooldown and is global. The area revealed with ScO is muddled and small. The area revealed with CV is much clearer and with a slightly larger area. There is no comparison between the spell and the trinket that is worth mentioning once you can see the difference in practice.

... but wards can do all of those things. In fact, wards usually do them better.

Wards have certain limitations that Clairvoyance does not. Yes, wards reveal areas of the map for a much longer duration of time. Wards can easily be bought when needed or tossed out when inventory space is desired, whereas Clairvoyance takes up a whole Spell slot and probably won't be used every single minute on the minute despite its potential of doing so. But wards require gold in one fashion or another. Someone can make the case of yellow trinkets not needing gold, and I can accept that case, but trinkets are still crap, and compared to real wards, are much more limited in use. Wards also carry a degree of risk. If you want to place that ward in contested territory, then someone has to get brave, sneak over there, place the ward, and sneak back. Wards can also be destroyed. You place a ward in the bush, and two seconds later the enemy sweeps that same area to 3-shot your 75 gold investment. Sure, you can always place a second ward after the sweeper is on cooldown, but that's another 75 gold to burn, and it's very likely only the support even bothered to buy a sightstone. Unless you have an ability like Nocturne or Graves, there's no way you can counter CV.

Yes, there are pros and cons between using wards versus Clairvoyance. That's why i use both. Yes, I use a sightstone and CV in almost every game I play (the exception is when I'm playing jungler and need to take Smite). (continued...)

SpiderTeo1 votes

(Continued from parent post...) To me, it's not a matter of "either-or." It's a matter of using all the tools available at our disposal. Hell, if I could buy and place 5 pink wards at a time like I used to do as a support (with T-Money runes and masteries) back in Season 3, then maybe I wouldn't need to use CV as much since there's already a ward placed there. The "wards" argument was perfectly viable back in Season 3 and prior. Unfortunately, in Season 4, the whole ward system was overhauled, and effectively nerfed, "for the sake of making warding a team effort rather than the sole duty of the support."

That's a nice sentiment, but it only really hurt players who would regularly and constantly ward the map. For players who didn't even bother with wards in the first place, this change really has not impacted them much, if at all. Sure, they got those shiny new yellow trinkets, but as I said before, those trinkets are crap, and only provide a false sense of accomplishment for players who can now say they have "warded."

The big nerf was that each player was limited to 3 wards (+ 1 pink ward) placed on the map at any one time. Now, for a guy who would regularly drop 4 to 5 wards at a time almost after every time he recalled, this was a major blow. Now, I need to rely on my other teammates to make sure the rest of the map is warded because I can only place 3 wards at a time. 3 wards is not enough to cover the whole damn map. That's why I use Clairvoyance. It picks up the slack when wards have reached their limits. Yes, I now need to be more selective when using CV, but that has actually helped me become a better player by necessitating me to read the map better, and to pick up information from what I see as well as what I DON'T see. And despite seeing in pro games that all team members are tossing out wards regularly, most players here don't even bother to do that (but they still latch on to whatever the latest build/champ/item of the month is among the pros).

Every other summoner spell in the game can be used to facilitate big plays. CV can't. Vision is useful, but you can't kill someone with vision. So if you want CV to be useable in big plays, it has to have a much broader use...

Okay, I just saw Alistar Alistar walk out of the bathroom, so I know that above quote is full of bovine feces. Vision is useful, yes. It's damn useful. It's the one thing that players don't realize when they face-check a bush or chase a target across the map or asking someone to ward Baron, only to find Baron is gone. Whoever sees the other first has the advantage. That advantage allows you to initiate at your choosing, or to fall back from an engagement even before it begins. Hell, I can't count the number of times where my CV or ward has secured an easy kill for my team just because the enemy thought he was safe and invisible in that one bush. I have also used CV to reveal areas of the map to prevent escapes into the bush, which otherwise would have been a futile chase, or to prevent tunnel-vision teammates from running headlong into a coordinated ambush.

Clairvoyance 2.0: Highlights areas of the minimap that contain enemy champions without specifying WHICH champions are there, and without specifically locating said champions.

Really? That's pretty much useless. Even anything, that would actually nerf Clairvoyance than make it more useful. I can already do what this proposed CV 2.0 is supposed to do. Check it. Given enough information from wards, CV, minion movements, and last seen enemy positions, it's not that difficult to predict or guess where the enemy could be hanging out. The trick is not to just use the information from what you see, but also to use the information from what you DON'T see. I could go into more detail, but I think I'm running out of space on this second post.

I don't expect to convert anyone to using Clairvoyance more often, but I do hope that this gives some insight on how and why I use Clairvoyance, and that players stop heckling those players who still use CV.

EnvyDragon2 votes

That's actually a really in-depth and well-executed argument. I'm tempted to run CV next time I play ADC - the big downside of course is that it means you can't take Heal, which means you have to plan to play a little differently. But there's nothing wrong with trying new strategies. Or making your support take Heal instead.

What I'm wondering here is, what's the problem with buffing blue trinket? Reduce the cooldown to 60, give it global range, and have the duration/AoE rank up instead of slowly granting access to the power it should inherently have. I feel that that would be much more healthy for the trinket dynamic... though that WOULD leave CV feeling redundant.

SpiderTeo1 votes

If you want to try out CV, it will necessitate a change in gameplay. Because it takes up a spell slot, you could effectively lose one form of escape. That's why CV should be used often and proactively. Use it as a preventative tool so you see trouble coming and avoid situations where you would need Heal or Flash. If you want to use it as the adc, then you need to have the mindset of both a jungler and the adc. If you feel you might be in a position to get ganked, such as pushing too far forward, then hit CV on where you would think the most opportune point of entry for the jungler would be. If it looks clear, then you can push a bit more without too much of a risk. If you do see something is up, then you know not to press your luck, and will turtle, recall, or just hit the dance animation and bust a move.

Also, don't expect immediate results. i have been working on this since Season 1, where i would first start buying wards en mass as the adc "because I hate getting killed by someone who is just out of vision while I'm just trying to push or farm." Possibly a better way to practice is to get a champion like Ashe, and use her Hawkshot regularly. It functions like CV though with an initially limited range but eventually shorter cooldown. Then you can use your usual Spells like Heal or Flash so you are not left completely without an escape as you practice in a live game.

EnvyDragon2 votes

Quinn is actually one of my main champs (support main going top more and more), so I'm right there with you when you talk about "spotting" somebody who's just going into a bush. Her W is way underappreciated.

blackcat13001 votes

Karthus KogMaw Sona Draven Swain Leblanc Zilean

Are all champs that live and die by mana except Deven he is unstoppable if he doesn't run out of mana Q,E,Q,E,Q,E,Q,E,Q,E,Q,E, His damage a attack speed just got to one hit kill now make him drop the ax because with infenet mana that is the only this to save you.

EnvyDragon2 votes

All of those are champs for whom mana can be an asset, yes. None of those are champions you would take Clarity on if you were to go and play a game right now.

Other than Kog'maw and Draven, ALL of those champions could (and likely would) build either Athene's or Mikael's. Kogs and Draven can just get Essence Reaver if they want, but running out of mana just means they have to resort to autoattacks - which, as ADCs, should still be pretty effective. Kog's range buff doesn't even have a mana cost.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Clarity - Restores mana Clairvoyance - Grants vision Revive - Brings you back from the dead


League of Legends tends to not value needing a large sum of mana quickly and instantly. Budgeting mana for those who don't build mana has only gotten easier, and those who need lots of it need more than what Clarity can provide making it a moot point since they'll have to buy mana regeneration anyways making that Clarity useless later anyways.

Basically, Mana is either limitless, or easily manageable in this game.


Vision control is something that could be worked on, however with Scrying Orbs giving almost the identical impact as CV, and at a much less resource impact (Summoner Spell vs Trinket slot) unless it was insanely buffed we won't see Clairvoyance returning to play.


Revive is either a must have or an awful ability. On dominion this was equivalent to Flash. Mandatory. On Summoner's Rift it was total troll. Why? Kills on Dominion matter less than raw map presence. On top of that, Dying on Summoner's Rift was something to avoid vehemently, taking a summoner that brings you back only means your more likely to die in the first place since you lacked a second combat summoner. On Dominion, Dying was inevitable, and sometimes worthwhile as it allowed you to revive and move onto the map maintaining pressure.


None of these are balance able in the current game, they would require extra mechanic's added to them for no net gain in strategic value.


Cleanse is situational enough to be used against certain champions in pro play (Doublelift took it on Lucian when fighting a Twisted Fate) Heal/Barrier only need minor number balances to make them both worthwhile (might be there already) Flash is fairly mandatory for playmaking or outplaying as well as avoiding instantly dying. Ghost is the weakest of the viable summoners.

EnvyDragon1 votes

So did you just, like, not read the original post at all?

Old Man Teeto1 votes

The idea of all three summoners is flawed, and do not fit in with a Summoner's Rift game.

The best course of action is actually to either Remove them entirely, or leave them as is, there is no point in reworking them.

EnvyDragon2 votes

The idea of all three summoners is flawed, and do not fit in with a Summoner's Rift game.

The best course of action is actually to either Remove them entirely, or leave them as is, there is no point in reworking them.

See, for one thing, you aren't really addressing the post at all. The point of the post is that there IS a point to reworking them, because the goals you stated...

Clarity - Restores mana Clairvoyance - Grants vision Revive - Brings you back from the dead

...aren't actually accurate. It's like if you lock yourself out of your house. Is the goal to get through the door, or is the goal to get inside?

Clarity - Reduces resource pressure for spell casts Clairvoyance - Helps track enemy movement Revive - Reduces impact of death

Clarity COULD restore mana, but that clearly isn't going to work for reasons we've both gone over. There's still room for a spell that allows you to use abilities more freely, it just can't do so via pure mana restoration.

CV COULD grant vision, but that overlaps too hard with blue trinket, and it doesn't have enough oomph to make it worth a summoner spell. There's still room for a spell that helps you figure out where enemies are within the fog of war, it just can't do it by revealing a selected area.

Revive COULD bring you back from the dead, but... Okay, no, Revive is stupid and it should be removed. The game relies too heavily on kill/death tempo for an instant-respawn to be balanceable.

None of these are balance able in the current game,

I agree.

they would require extra mechanic's added to them for no net gain in strategic value.

There's plenty of room for net gain in strategic value. Hell, the whole point of the original post was to demonstrate that you COULD add strategic value by changing mechanics.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

There's plenty of room for net gain in strategic value. Hell, the whole point of the original post was to demonstrate that you COULD add strategic value by changing mechanics.

Your suggestion for Revive made revive super situationally better, but worse 99% of the time than the current Revive (with the huge Move speed steroid on revive) because your out of the fight for as long if it was on your side of the map, or around Dragon/Baron, with a high potential to just instantly die again anyways.

Your suggestion for CV "not showing" who you find and instead having little red blips (I think of it as how you see your Nidalee/Caitlyn traps through fog of war but don't actually have sight unless stepped on) just weaken's CV without giving an insane duration or short CD which would make doing any Baron/Dragon horrible and even more stalemate than it is now.

Clairvoyance giving reduced CD and removing the mana cost on next spells either does one thing: Makes burst damage burstier (replacing Ignite to double cast an ability - imagine Le-Blanc, Clarity ->Q->R->Q->W)

As I said, there's no net gain in strategic value.

EnvyDragon1 votes

I actually agreed in my response that Revive should probably just be removed.

For CV, its current cooldown is 60 seconds IIRC. Being able to account for the entire enemy team's positioning is, in my opinion, a HUGE improvement in strategic value over "Hmm, is there somebody in that bush for the following two seconds?" Rather than knowing whether someone is in a VERY specific area, you can determine broadly whether you're at risk of a gank, whether it's safe to do dragon, where that MIA went, etc etc. I argue that that is a net gain in strategic value.

Clarity on Live has no strategic value whatsoever. It's worthless. You may as well replace it with a passive effect that increases mana regen in a radius. A version of Clarity with ANY amount of strategic value is a net gain in strategic value. I agree that the reduced CD aspect of Version 2.0 is abuseable (actually mentioned that, specifically with LeBlanc, in this thread) but the point of the change is to GIVE IT STRATEGIC VALUE. Maybe not reduced CD, but if you add an effect other than mana stuff, it can become the "I can cast a spell without drawbacks" ability, and that opens you up to plays.

I'm not arguing that the variations I offered are perfect. I'm just saying that there are a few summoner spells that could be made at least interesting (if not viable) with a little bit of tweaking. Sure, you could just remove the spells. But why get rid of them when you can make them awesome?

skippersd1 votes

I disagree with ghost being unviable. It IS highly situational, couse you must be either somewhat tanky with a dash (ie: trynda, Jax) or full out tank (olaf a bit, Nasus, udyr) and these are just from the top of my head. THEORETICALLY it would even make sense on an adc with dash, (mostly Ez), but that is a huge inherit risk, because it would make said adc really dead really quickly should he be even a bit out of position.

TheKaymon1 votes

I think Clarity/CV/Revive need to be looked at in terms of their goals and purposes in order to make them worthwhile.

Agreed.

Clarity 2.0: You and the allied champion nearest to your cursor can cast a single non-ultimate spell [U]for free, with no cooldown[/U] (or significantly reduced cooldown), during the next 3 seconds.

I like the direction of this change, but I think this could have some abuse cases. Also I think it shouldn't have the ally component to make it more appealing outside of bottom lane. What about if Clarity made your next non-ult spell free, and increased it's power. Maybe make it something similar to the old Surge, with an boost in AP/AD. In addition, it could act as if you had 40% CDR if you want to keep the cooldown reduction aspect, without making it too strong.

Clairvoyance 2.0: Highlights areas of the minimap that contain enemy champions without specifying WHICH champions are there, and without specifically locating said champions.

I think this is a good direction for Clairvoyance as well. Moving it away from blue trinket is good, but I think your idea is a bit too complex. I would reccomend removing the visibility cooldown reduction. Alternatively, what about something akin to a short version of Rengar's ult, which would show all nearby enemy champions for a couple seconds, or maybe just show their portrait on the minimap through fog without providing vision.

Revive 2.0a: After a 3-second casting time (including a gamewide ping at the location announcing to both teams that you're using Revive), you respawn AT YOUR CORPSE with 50hp and no armor or magic resistance, and with a 50% reduction in all damage output.

99.9% of the time, I can't imagine this being useful. I think honestly that they should just remove revive or completely rework it. I don't think the equivalent of buyback can ever be balanced properly.

LittleBlast1 votes

They are all situational spells. They can all have their use, and yes you can actually kill someone with vision. I take clarity when I go AP Chogath for the amazing amount of extra kill potential you get. About {{summoner:2}} the reason I find it attimes viable is if your playing a chanpion with no skillshots, ex Ryze , because you need vision on them to kill them. Revive is the only one I really agree with needs a buff. I think that the cd should goes down 2x to 3x as fast while dead, allowing for people falling behind to be able to come back. Also, no ability should make an ally spell have no cd or free. Every lb would take clarity for the triple q. Just my thoughts.

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