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Lee Sin is a little weak right now

EnvyDragon··107 votes·7,248 views

said no one ever. Jinx

EDIT for serious-mode comment I made below, which I feel is worth pasting up here:

The fact is that even when Lee Sin is weak, he doesn't FEEL weak. He has a ton of options and a ton of utility - kinda like Thresh, except with Lee Sin you don't have to worry about braindead teammates flashing over your lantern. J4 might be statistically, provably better, but in my opinion - and the opinion of many others - Lee Sin is still more frustrating to play against.

He pegs you with a skillshot and then gets to decide whether or not to instantly teleport to you. Chase him down in the jungle? Too bad, he can ward-hop for free. Got him low? Well, he's got lifesteal and spellvamp built into his kit too, on top of a free shield - he can just beat up camps for a bit and he'll be right as rain, whereas most other champs would likely have to recall. He does so much and he doesn't appear to pay any price for it... at least with Jarvan I can see his windows of vulnerability.

74 Comments

Pozio45 votes

I downvoted your post, then I saw what's inside and changed my mind

( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )

A Superb Villain26 votes

http://media.agonybooth.com/images/articles/Amazing_Spider_Man_2_2014/j-jonah-laughing.gif

GloriousKaiser17 votes

Riot doesn't LeeSin

Kuroi8610 votes

Lee Sin is a little weak right now said no one ever.

...

Except LeeSin mains.

Personally.

He's close to being balanced.

A little too much early damage.

But not as strong as he used to be.

DeusVult10 votes

I do believe that it is the whole "excels at everything at every moment in the game and can build anything and be somewhat viable and have no costs or real long CDs" that people are fed up with, not the fact that early he explodes you like an overripe melon

Kuroi8612 votes

I wouldn't say excels at everything so much as he sucks at nothing. There are champs that counter jungle better. Champs that gank better. Champs with better CC. Champs with better damage. Ect, ect, ect. He doesn't do too much great, but everything just well enough that it's easy to cover up any weak points. Truthfully if you nerf him too hard, he becomes unviable. About the only big change you can make is to just push him into a niche.

Brenticus124 votes

Isn't saying "If you nerf him too hard, he becomes unviable" sort of redundant? And also I feel even with nerfs his utility is enough to keep him viable atleast in higher elo where teams can capitalize on plays.

Kuroi863 votes

Yeah, didn't put it right. I think a better way to put it would be that keeping him viable means keeping him strong. I'm not certain there is a middle ground unless you push him into a niche.

WolfBV2 votes

He's a Jack of all Trades like some other champion we know of. Sona

I wonder if they'll do the same to Lee Sin once they kill Sona.

ModCaptainMårvelous10 votes

Actually people said that They said it at release, where Lee's ratios were so piss poor that they actually had to hotfix him because he was so terrible.

Akesgeroth2 votes

This. There was actually like a month where Lee Sin sucked.

ForgiveColour7 votes

why do people pretend j4 is balanced just because "muh mana cost"? I ban j4 everytime i can. There isn't a thing that j4 cant do better than lee sin.

macromite8 votes

j4 doesnt have 25% spellvamp/lifesteal in his kit last I checked. or 200%ad scaling ult with good base damage. or not being practily resourcless. but yeah, jarvan is so much better than lee sin.

Cindikle4 votes

Bonus AD. And J4's is 150% while being AoE and bringing more disruption. As well as a second gap closer. As well as his Q having a % armor shred to make his even stronger.

I'd say they both have strong burst even if they build tanky.

Not that I'm saying Lee is balanced. His Q still has 205 more range. J4's Q - 770 Lee's first Q - 975(1100 for second, but that part is fine). Both are skill shots, and J4's requires an ability combo.

Lee's Q's range needs to be lowered by 850. And change the first Q's energy cost to have both Q's costs in it. With a slight refund in it if he deals damage with the second Q. J4 can be punished much harder for using his gap closer wrong. Lee cannot. If he misses, he just waits for the CD. He'll regen the energy faster than his first Q can spend it. And if things look bad after he lands it, he just has not to go in.

What they bring to a team can be very similiar. But J4 has much stronger weaknesses and counters.

Alëk5 votes

{quoted}

Bonus AD. And J4's is 150% while being AoE and bringing more disruption. As well as a second gap closer. As well as his Q having a % armor shred to make his even stronger.

I'd say they both have strong burst even if they build tanky.

Not that I'm saying Lee is balanced. His Q still has 205 more range. J4's Q - 770 Lee's first Q - 975(1100 for second, but that part is fine). Both are skill shots, and J4's requires an ability combo.

Lee's Q's range needs to be lowered by 850. And change the first Q's energy cost to have both Q's costs in it. With a slight refund in it if he deals damage with the second Q. J4 can be punished much harder for using his gap closer wrong. Lee cannot. If he misses, he just waits for the CD. He'll regen the energy faster than his first Q can spend it. And if things look bad after he lands it, he just has not to go in.

What they bring to a team can be very similiar. But J4 has much stronger weaknesses and counters.

Right now I don't agree with any number changes or statistics being changed on Lee. I don't feel that will help his problem. I feel that more than anything else, Lee needs an identity. Currently he's a jungler that can fit in any comp, and do literally everything required for the team. He can assassinate, tank, peel, and split. Because of all of these capabilites you can't really identify the type of role Lee plays in a game because he can do them all WELL. This is honestly the biggest problem. The fact that lee can do all of those things so well is extremely unhealthy for the game. It wouldn't be too bad if he played one or two roles decently since that is normal generally, however the fact that he can play any role the team requires, too fit a gap in the teams comp is very bad for the game and greatly reduces counterplay.

Whereas champions are generally puzzle pieces that can fit together to form a team comp, good or bad, lee is a puzzle piece that can fit universally into any comp. Pick Lee in a game, top or jungle, and you automatically have an option to play tanky, be an assassin, bruiser or in case of having a high damage support with low peel (annie etc.) play a somewhat supporting role. Lee has too much in his kit that allows him to fulfill all roles. burst, utility, dps, hard cc, soft cc, and poke. He has strong engage and strong disengage and perhaps more than anything else he has the ability to adapt to almost any situation. So until an identity is defined for Lee I feel that he won't really ever be balanced

Cindikle1 votes

I have no problem with there being champions that fit into most comps. As long as they are not the best at that roll.

A champion that fits many rolls would be one you would pick early in your comp so the enemy doesn't know how to counter you right away.

Lee does already fit this to a point. But he excels at two things. Mobility and early game. How many champs can compete with him in the early game? How many can have as strong of ganks as he can?

J4 comes close, but has no where near the safety and his mobility is much more situational.

Xin probably as as strong of ganks. But like J4, he is much more limited in how he can do things. And is even less safe in almost every regard.

As long as Lee gets to be so much safer than these two, he will always be that much stronger. Xin and J4 can land their gank easier. But they are punished so much more for it. Reduce this safety of Lee's and I think he'd become much more balanced as a champion.

This range reduction also gives players more time to avoid his Q when he does gank. This still leaves ward hopping to start the gank an option as well. It's not the end of his ability to gank.

Hibeki1 votes

Jarvans damage on ult is single target. Everyone else is trapped in arena the same as you, just only you take damage.

Jarvan requires to use two abilities for a single gap closer, and literally every ability on lee sin is a gapcloser if used correctly.

I admit Jarvan is strong at the moment, but that isn't because of his kit. It's because of the items and tactics and counters he utilizes.

WhereTheNamesAt1 votes

"Jarvan is strong at the moment, but that isn't because of his kit" lol.

-How can a knock up to terrain ult NOT be OP. I mean for fuck's sake you can trap an entire team in his ult -Jarvan literally has more free stats than Lee does

Hibeki1 votes

-Terrain ult still retains bug that can be walked out of since release

-Modern day supports and champions have easy ways of escaping small terrain

-Must use two abilities for knock up

-Jarvan's only free stats is Attack speed, and ARGUABLY his armor shred.

Stephenizgod4 votes

I think its funny when Lee Sin mains say "QQ some more he is balanced UNLIKE *enter FoTM champion here* at least his early game blah blah blah cant carry blah blah blah"

Early game: Buys Long Sword, Does more damage then 95% of the champions in the game.
Late game: Assassinates ADC then ults next priority target into his team and jumps out. Carry? Lee? Nah...

The Red Warden4 votes

You forgot how late game he still assassinates people even though he has 3-4 tank items.

jv21blU7oD2 votes

If you go the usual tanky jungle build on Lee you will not assassinate anyone late game unless you're playing against complete retards who doesn't give a single peeling spell for their carries (and the fact that you will straight up lose 1v1 against many of them). The nerf he got to Cripple a while back not slowing attack speed anymore pretty much shattered a lot of dueling matchups he used to be able to take on and he is more about utility now.

Best Lee Sin OH1 votes

If you think Lee Sin can assassinate ANYBODY late game, you're either shitty at this game or the people you're playing against are pitifully bad. Probably you since you just spew what other people say and can't form your own opinions.

Stephenizgod1 votes

LMFAO! What? I just told you my own opinion you imbecile, and you are right maybe assassinate is the wrong word. He jumps in with his Q hits his E then R then W to get away, taking little to no damage. Oh wait... that kind of sounds like what assassins do... maybe i was right the first time.

Best Lee Sin OH1 votes

An assassin's goal is to eliminate a priority target and escape. Lee Sin can not kill anybody late game unless he builds full damage (in which case he will rarely escape). Get good.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Really? Without any CC Lee Sin can jump twice, knock you back, has a shield, and a slow. He has all the tools for escapin and the damage while doing it to kill someone. Yes a bad Lee Sin will not capitalize on his Mobility and Damage, but a good Lee Sin has plenty of ways to either assassinate or isolate one person, it happens all the time.

DatKiva4 votes

i was about to come in and downvote you witha comment like "FUCK YOU AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON!" but then you cleaned up and delivered a good point

JØJł4 votes

LeeSin to your heart

Antemos Xaos1 votes

You will understand.

Spookzie3 votes

Veigar What's black and blue and is about to show you the definition of...LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin

Senteth3 votes

I why does everyone apparently have such a hard time vs Lee Sin? I personally have never played as, with, or against a Lee Sin that was anything more than subpar.

Granted I have only ever played him twice, and I was probably doing him horribly wrong. (I couldn't defeat more than 2 jungle camps without help) But I have played with/against many a MR. Sin, and not ***one ***has been anything more than okay.

I put him on the same level as Nautilus, because he isn't always useless.

That's just my experience with him anyway...

(Feel free to down vote into the abyss because of Lee Sins inability to impress me...)

2 much sauuuce7 votes

It's not having a problem with him per se, its the fact that he is seen so often, that his kit is overloaded to all hell (matched pretty much only by Thresh whom, guess what, people complain about just as much), and that "why pick such and such a jungler when Lee is available?" scenario, and the fact he can fit into any team comp and be first picked easily and has no real counter.

I run into mostly incompetent Lee Sin's as well (Silver peeps, what can ya say?) but it doesn't make it less annoying.

Personally I wish he was Olaf'd and smashed into the ground so I never have to see him ever again. But that's just me.

We want diversity, not "yet another reason to pick Lee Sin cuz reasons"

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

There are a great many bad Lee Sins out there that are attempting to hop on the bandwagon. Pray you don't have to face one of the amazing ones.

Carry3 votes

Lee Sin is weak right now in solo queue. He has a 45% winrate, J4 has a 54% winrate.

Downvote me GD circle jerkers, keep pretending your circle jerk is a better indicator of balance than winrates.

EnvyDragon6 votes

The funny thing is I might have upvoted you if not for that second line.

The fact is that even when Lee Sin is weak, he doesn't FEEL weak. He has a ton of options and a ton of utility - kinda like Thresh, except with Lee Sin you don't have to worry about braindead teammates flashing over your lantern. J4 might be statistically, provably better, but in my opinion - and the opinion of many others - Lee Sin is still more frustrating to play against.

He pegs you with a skillshot and then gets to decide whether or not to instantly teleport to you. Chase him down in the jungle? Too bad, he can ward-hop for free. Got him low? Well, he's got lifesteal and spellvamp built into his kit too, on top of a free shield - he can just beat up camps for a bit and he'll be right as rain, whereas most other champs would likely have to recall. He does so much and he doesn't appear to pay any price for it... at least with Jarvan I can see his windows of vulnerability.

JevelFaithful4 votes

{quoted}

The fact is that even when Lee Sin is weak, he doesn't FEEL weak. ... Lee Sin is still more frustrating to play against.

Good points there. I don't know if it's awesome design or horrible design. I think riot have already used arguments that apply here on both sides. And it's probably why he's so good and so hated.

If it's true he's only at 45%, then it's good. I don't remember seeing him a lot in the recent matches, but those were new teams. Maybe the old guard is still more comfortable with lee in hand. That also means that even if he's weak, he'll still feel strong and will still be hated.

Ironically, when I put it that way, it sounds like text book horrible design.

D1rtFarmer2 votes

aka overloaded kit with no mana.

JevelFaithful1 votes

I am not going to deny this statement. =)

Sukishoo1 votes

Yeah, I hardly even see Lee played lately. I dunno why everyone is crying so hard for him to be nerfed. I've seen him in 1 out of 20 games.

Kalarepa3 votes

You know a champion is broken, when he feels weak if he doesn't have 90% pick/ban ratio in LCS.

junglerboy163 votes

Basically, win rate has nothing to do with whether Lee sin is broken or not. He could have a 30% win rate or a 70% win rate, but he would still feel like crap to play against (maybe if he had 30% win rate it would mean he would be weak enough to not matter). His kit is broken in that there is just too much in it. He is also too extreme; he either hard carries off an early kill, or fails and turns into a useless utility dude. His early game is excessively strong, while his late game is excessively weak when not levels and levels ahead from his early game. His skill cap is far too high, which means people can master him and become uncontrollable, while his skill floor is also high enough that most newbs/people who don't dedicate games upon games to learning him fail miserably (which is where the low win rate comes from).

Zahz2 votes

awwwwwwwwwFiddlesticks

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

I was gonna like punch you at first sight on the title, but when I click in, I was like "YEEEEEEEAAAH"

Brotha2 votes

People complain about Lee because Lee is fun to play, not because he is OPNERFPLZ!!!!111!

11th lowest win ratio in the game. Fact is Lee has little influence in the outcome of your games, especially now that the meta is more about Late Game and less about Early Game (Lost lane? It's fine jungler got us 3 drakes in 25 minutes and we'll win every teamfight because fuck you).

EnvyDragon3 votes

{quoted}

People complain about Lee because Lee is no fun to play against

fixed

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

Don't judge solely by winrates. The majority of that is bandwagoners trying to copy what they're heard about from the community, and failing due to lack of experience.

2 much sauuuce1 votes

Also... FUN FACT!!!

Lee Sin's pick rate increases steadily from Bronze (lowest pick rate at 21%) to Master (highest pick rate at 45%)

His win rate is consistent in all rankings though. Which I assume as meaning that he just can't carry. >:)

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

Interesting. In that case I would guess that the reason for poor winrates is that he does better with a properly coordinated team.

Balgoth1 votes

ban him from your games.

EnvyDragon2 votes

I play 90% teambuilder and the rest of the time I'm not always captain.

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