Can Yasuo have some CD before he can generate Flow again after his shield was broken?

Shadòw·Sep 8, 2016·151 votes·4,656 views

One of the most annoying parts in Windmans kit is definitly his passive shield. I think we can all agree that this Champ needs a nerf.

So, instead of nerfing his Damage, can we put some CD on his Flow Generation after his shield was broken? Just like s passive where he cannot generate Rage again after he was Mega for a short amount of time.

This would actually create a much less frustrating laning phase when playing against without nerfing his Damage or Mobility, which are his core strengths.

I'm thinking about values like 15 seconds on lvl 1, scaling down per level and reaching ~1sec at lvl18.

170 Comments

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 201632 votes

Gaining Flow for his shield is already a 10-17 second effective cooldown, depending on him constantly moving, so I'm not sure why you want to bump it to 11-32 seconds other than to say "Fuck Yasuo."

Maybe I'm just tired, but literally the only champion I can name that has a cooldown on gaining a resource is Gnar, and that's kind of completely different circumstances.

EDIT: People have mentioned Kled's passive, just fyi, thank you lovelies

ShadòwSep 8, 201613 votes

To create bigger time windows in which you can do something when his shield is down.

Right now, he goes in, outtrades you because of his shield, and then sits back a short time and waits until his shield is back up again and does the same again.

The problem here is that his shield is up too often, usually when you got your spells off CD it is almost full again. I remember Zed being nerfed because of frustration in lane, so why not Yasuo ?

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 201625 votes

{quoted}

To create bigger time windows in which you can do something when his shield is down.

17 seconds not long enough in the laning phase?

Right now, he goes in, outtrades you because of his shield, and then sits back a short time and waits until his shield is back up again and does the same again.

points at literally every champion with a defensive tool ever

The problem here is that his shield is up too often, usually when you got your spells off CD it is almost full again. I remember being nerfed because of frustration in lane, so why not ?

See, now, I hate when people do this. Absolutely hate when someone is trying to make an argument, and they make a very unspecific reference to something else that might possibly be relevant, but the reference is too vague to say whether or not you're talking about the same subject.

What. Zed. Nerf?! The nerf to his shadow's travel speed? His return blink delay on his ult? Cooldown increase on his ult?

If you're referring to the one I think you are, you're talking about a combo that Zed players could pull off to instantly tower-dive with absolutely no retaliation whatsoever. Which is not similar to basically saying "Yasuo doesn't get to have a shield in the laning phase."

ShadòwSep 8, 20165 votes

What. Zed. Nerf?! The nerf to his shadow's travel speed? His return blink delay on his ult? Cooldown increase on his ult?

No i mean the 5-25 Damage on his Q which is his main Damage tool.

17 seconds not long enough in the laning phase?

Many Champion abilities are on such a high cooldown in lane. Syndra for example has 16 sec on her E, so how do you want to make his shield downtime count?

When your abilities come off cd, he almost regenerated his shield.

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 201618 votes

{quoted}

Many Champion abilities are on such a high cooldown in lane. for example has 16 sec on her E, so how do you want to make his shield downtime count?

When your abilities come off cd, he almost regenerated his shield.

You're comparing the ability to disengage combat, potentially stunning an attacker so you can get away completely, with a shield that blocks between 100-200 damage if it's all done within 1 second.

Not, say, another shield. You know, the same type of ability. But then you'd have to notice that the vast majority of shield abilities have a shorter cooldown and can block more damage, either on base shield or scaling. Not to mention they last longer and often come with extra buffs, can be cast on allied targets, and work with %CDR.

But, no, go ahead and tell me how Syndra's E is parallel to Yasuo's passive. I'm dying to hear your justification.

ShadòwSep 8, 20165 votes

it's not about comparing, it's about the ability to trade

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 201619 votes

Translation: you don't actually have a way to defend your point.

Yasuo's shield might block up to 100-200 damage during the laning phase, if his opponent just throws everything at his shield. Chances are, though, most players have learned that the shield lasts 1 second so they can just punch/shoot him once, wait a tick, then resume beating his face to a bloody pulp because he is a squishy melee champ.

Syndra's E is a cone knockback with a quarter- or half-second casting delay. All enemy targets within the cone are knocked back a decent distance, meanwhile, Syndra is mobile during her casting times. This means she gets away even easier, because she's actively moving away while pushing enemies off of her. If she places a sphere and then uses her E, all of which takes less than a second, she can also stun enemies, guaranteeing her escape from all but the most ludicrously mobile champions.

Did you notice something about the defensive use of those abilities?

Yasuo's shield is used for trading, while Syndra's E is used (defensively) for disengaging.

Not trading, disengaging. Entirely. Different. Defensive. Applications. And. Thus. Not. Comparable. At. All.

GULAG 4 USep 8, 20166 votes

Translation: Git fucking gud

ShadòwSep 8, 20164 votes

when XTRMN00B1337 says that

GULAG 4 USep 8, 20163 votes

When someone who fails to understand the cd of yasuo's passive is him walking says that, grats challenger

ShadòwSep 8, 20163 votes

and how much he needs to walk?

like 10-15 seconds?

GULAG 4 USep 8, 20163 votes

Test it yourself maybe? It's enough time, why does it need to be 30+ seconds like you suggested?

It's already something like 15, that's long enough.

ShadòwSep 8, 20163 votes

it's still a free shield

GULAG 4 USep 8, 20165 votes

Blocks ONE auto if you're not boosted
Lasts for 2 seconds
He has shit worth of base stats to compensate.

NightmareAmazoXSep 9, 20163 votes

Lasts for 1 second, I think.

Spicy RiceSep 8, 20167 votes

Gee wilikers, 15 secs to gain a shield that he can't time that blocks 1 auto before disappearing.

Next thing we know, you are going to be asking for extra cooldowns for Darius ulting so that his resets give room for counter play

GULAG 4 USep 9, 20163 votes

or you can't double jump on k6 anymore : ^)

dominusxSep 9, 20162 votes

PLZ NO DONT GIVE ME NIGHTMARES........@ConsumeAndAdapt will murder you IRL ;p

tooomineSep 8, 20167 votes

You have failed to account for the part where yas's shield is completely free. every other shield in the game costs mana, and you can effectively whittle your opponents mana bar down with trading. Yas, on the other hand, gets a completely resourcesless shield.

So, lets compare his shield to the other essentially resourceless shields in the game: Face of the mountain (90 second cooldown) Archangels staff (120 second cooldown) steraks gage/Maw (60 second cooldown).

His shield is, by far, statistically overpowered.

We can do more math. laning phase can take anywhere between 7 to 15 minutes. lets just say its 75 for easy math. In 7.5 minutes, yasuo can block 26 trades with his shield, entirely for free. for 15, double that, 52 trades.

compare to a janna, who also has a shield but who has to deal with mana. Base mana pool 0f 841, 70 mana cost for a shield (that does 85 damage mitigation), If all she does for the first 9 levels of the game is shield in trades, she can do between 12 and 24 shields during a laning phase (rough extimate to account for mana regen/5s).

You might be like "Aha! I have you now, 24 and 26 is close in a laning phase, hold my intransigence while I wallow in self-righteousness" but you forget that janna, in doing so, has forgone any possibility to offensive trading with her kit.

Yas, on the other hand, gets to get his free shields while offensively trading twice every minion wave.

That shit is hands down, broken.

dropping his cooldown to 30 seconds means he can effectively get 15 -30 free shields in a laning phase, and any mistake made during a trade gives his lane opponent an oportunity to deny him CS. Its still, statistically speaking, broken as shit given his 30 second cooldown ultimate at level 16, but it would make laning against yasuo feasible.

GULAG 4 USep 9, 20166 votes

So the shit base stats don't matter?

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So the shit base stats don't matter?

its quite comedic how much you defend yasuo even though you rarely play him

JustMyBassCannonSep 9, 20162 votes

I know you were commenting on him, but that applies to me as well.

I don't play the champion very much, mostly in ARAMs because random rolls.

I just also don't suffer fools' whining over champions. People complain about a champion doing what it's supposed to do, then act like it would be perfectly rational to Olaf them so they can go back to not thinking critically in-game.

tooomineSep 8, 20163 votes

yes. 17 seconds means he can affectively out trade you twice per wave while simultanously taking any of those opportunities to get CS instead of trading with you.

Shield plus dash equals a get out of bad positioning free card. Up the cooldown, and it becomes a pay to get out of jail situation.

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 20164 votes

So, you don't know how to retaliate against a champion, is that what you're saying? Because that's what I'm getting out of this. It sounds like you literally just stand still and let Yasuo have his way with the lane like a barely resisting, horny wench.

tooomineSep 8, 20161 votes

It sounds like you're insistent on intransigence, homie.

I have no time for that.

Spicy RiceSep 8, 20164 votes

That moment when you use intransigence inncorrectly because you aren't winning an argument, and went to a thesaurus to find synonyms for stubborn

GayFluffyUnicornSep 8, 20164 votes

AD ratio nerf, Q base dmg nerf, R dmg nerf, W cooldown gutting. Those are the recent nerfs who put zed into the gutter. Explanation: Zed should decide when to use his W and not just spam it hurr durr. Yasuo: move all day long without using his brain, reloading his shield, poking all day but oh they nerfed his AS a bit. "nerf"-

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 20169 votes

Nerfing his bonus AS reduces his innate Q cooldown as well, just fyi.

tooomineSep 8, 20163 votes

30 seconds means that any inefficient trading on yas's side can effectively cost him CS. it gives him a meaningful weakness when his shield is down.

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 20164 votes

Because it's impossible to make good trades against a champ that has a shield on a 17-second cooldown. That's why every goddamn scrub and their boosted plat mother is complaining about him.

GULAG 4 USep 8, 20163 votes

Mordekaiser doesn't exist, gg

NightmareAmazoXSep 9, 20162 votes

'' Boosted plat mother is complaining about him ''

This line made me spill my tea. Rofl.

Velzard of KozSep 8, 20165 votes

Maybe I'm just tired, but literally the only champion I can name that has a cooldown on gaining a resource is Gnar, and that's kind of completely different circumstances.

Not that I'd compare the tons of bonus Health to Yas, but Kled also can reach point of cooldowned Corage. Don't remember the name of the debuff tho. Once he regains Skaarl, If he looses him within the 30 seconds cooldown, he can't get Courage for the remaining time.

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 20162 votes

Fair enough, although Skarl is literally where all of his bonus health goes.

Auz the RipperSep 8, 20164 votes

"frayed nerves"

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 8, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Gaining Flow for his shield is already a 10-17 second effective cooldown, depending on him constantly moving, so I'm not sure why you want to bump it to 11-32 seconds other than to say "Fuck Yasuo."

Maybe I'm just tired, but literally the only champion I can name that has a cooldown on gaining a resource is Gnar, and that's kind of completely different circumstances.

in the end you are still getting a free shield for walking so I wouldnt complain

ThiccNuggSep 8, 20164 votes

Kled cannot gain courage for a few seconds, not that that isn't fair.

EviI SiontistSep 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Gaining Flow for his shield is already a 10-17 second effective cooldown, depending on him constantly moving, so I'm not sure why you want to bump it to 11-32 seconds other than to say "Fuck Yasuo."

Maybe I'm just tired, but literally the only champion I can name that has a cooldown on gaining a resource is Gnar, and that's kind of completely different circumstances. Kled. Isn't there a certain cooldown on how he can regain his lady lizard friend? Frailed Nerves? Or Am I in the wrong here and making shit up hueheuheuheue

FastAsHeckSep 9, 20162 votes

reading all your comments here, have to say you're the real MVP of this thread.

AwesomeChadSep 8, 20165 votes

holy crap, this. Just give yasuo's passive the gnar treatment. Having the cooldown on the shield will punish yasuo players more for going in all the time. It makes no sense for a high dmg threat like yasuo to be that inherently tanky in the first place.

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 201634 votes

I was waiting for someone to compare Yasuo's passive to Gnar.

You're comparing a form swap that grants hard CC and a significant steroid boost with a shield that blocks between 100 and 200 damage through the laning phase.

They. Are. Not. Parallel. Abilities.

And Yasuo is not "inherently tanky" because of his shield. Even if you lack any way to pop his bubble from a distance, you just have to poke it once, wait half a second, then go apeshit on his face, just like when any other champion has a shield, or a champ uses Zhonya's, or what have you. It's. Not. Hard. To. Play. Against. Yasuo. If. You. Actually. Try.

tooomineSep 8, 20166 votes

It. Is. Hard. To. Play. Against. Yasuo. If. You. Are. Half. The. Champions. In. The. Game.

see how I did that? imagine how persuasive it really is now...

i have digressed. yas's kit provides more than any other solo laner champ. He mathematically needs a nerf. its not a question of opinion, man, his kit has 8 unique functions, Lee Sin has 7, most other champs have 4-6. this champ is super overloaded and needs to be reworked. until then, he should be nerfed into the dirt, ala old school ryze.

JustMyBassCannonSep 8, 201612 votes

{quoted}

It. Is. Hard. To. Play. Against. Yasuo. If. You. Are. Half. The. Champions. In. The. Game.

see how I did that? imagine how persuasive it really is now...

No, see, you're supposed to start with a long explanation that details how I'm wrong, and then write a sentence that capitalizes each word, separating them with periods, as though you were slowly enunciating the core of your message to someone that needs everything spelled out like they're seven years old.

i have digressed. yas's kit provides more than any other solo laner champ. He mathematically needs a nerf. its not a question of opinion, man, his kit has 8 unique functions, Lee Sin has 7, most other champs have 4-6.

"8 unique functions"

That's being extremely vague for the purpose of bluffing up your argument. I want you to actually show me why you think I'm wrong, instead of bullshitting with coquettish language.

Lee Sin has an AS steroid, anti-stealth vision, two gap closers, a shield, innate Lifesteal, AoE damage, AS/MS slow, knockback/knockup, and is the champion with the easiest Energy generation out of all of the Energy champions. That's at least 12 functions in his kit.

But, no, you're not talking about functions. What you meant was that Lee Sin has 7 abilities in his QWER. Meanwhile Yasuo has 4.

Your math still isn't adding up because you're trying to simplify a complex figure with integer-based mathematics that do not add up properly at all.

But why am I expecting someone to actually function in a debate? This is League boards.

tooomineSep 8, 20163 votes

you right. I'm pulling my numbers from some research I did two weeks ago, and it isn't particularly familiar anymore. I'm on some bullshit.

Nevertheless, you defined 9 unique functions on lee's kit (and I"m being generous counting the two gap closers twice, you really only defined 8). while you pointed out my fumble, your own recovery of the play is lackadaisical.

that much being said, you can define yasuo's unique functions very similarly to lee's: Armor pen (r), damage steroids(e), move speed steroids(e), shield (passive) , projectile protection (w), AoE damge (q), Aoe Damage (q+e), hard CC (r), Hard cc (3q), double crit strike (passive).

still 12 unique functions, still more than lee, and any other champion in this game.

ChaosThiefSep 8, 201612 votes

You... really don't know how to play against yasuo... do you?

Let's give a few examples: If you're Lux, would you rather risk a long range snare, or wait for him to get close and instantly snare him?

If you're Viktor, you can use the Q's second effect? (auto enhancemet) to ignore wind wall and use your W when standing still.

If you're orianna, abuse the fact that you have a bonus magic damage on hit passive against him if he tries to go close.

If you're vel'koz, You can toss out spells to hit him and the minions at the same time, and if he goes in Q or E on him since it's point blank.

His kit is designed around the fact that ranged champions would normally be an incredible pain for him to fight; Yasuo is a skirmisher. Skirmishers are a sub class designed for small fights and 1 on 1 fights. If they know what they're doing, they'll succeed easily; like a katarina main would in teamfights.

NA YasuoSep 8, 20166 votes

Yasuo tells you when he has his tornado, he literally tells you when hes going to use his ultimate. Its easy for someone to play around Yasuo's mechanics.

Velzard of KozSep 8, 20169 votes

If you're vel'koz, You can toss out spells to hit him and the minions at the same time, and if he goes in Q or E on him since it's point blank.

The pain in ass with this is actually If the Yasuo player is paying attention, he can easily dash out of Q or E. And then whenever I try to predict when he might dash in for the juicy wave he just won't go. Velkoz The subject doesn't seem to cooperate.

ChaosThiefSep 8, 20167 votes

And that's kind of the point; he's trying to avoid hits entirely and use his mobility, but he isn't invincible and he knows this. If he's dashing around a lot, things like auto attacks are likely your best friend.

Velzard of KozSep 8, 20163 votes

If he's dashing around a lot, things like auto attacks are likely your best friend.

I always wanted to try ADC Vel'Koz :D But I get what you mean, thanks. The problem is that I am bad with anything but Vel so trying to counterpick Yasuo with something that has more reliable damage source isn't for me.

ChaosThiefSep 8, 20162 votes

And that's not a problem at all; play with what you can play with and learn everything you can.