Are we in elementary school where the teacher punishes the whole class because of two bad students? I mean come on that only worked in elementary school because of peer pressure not to mess up. It doesn't work in league because the other junglers can't peer pressure Lee Sin, and Jarvan into playing worse.
Purodyuusaa33 votesHey man. Lee Sin and Jarvan haven't always been a problem. It used to be Lee Sin and Vi, Lee Sin and Evelynn, Lee Sin and Shyvana, Lee Sin and Nunu, Lee Sin and etc.
SEKAI10 votesEven when FF was broken as shat, Lee (who doesn't even use it, except occasionally picking up to try) was still on the chart lol.
Direwolfiez1 votesI remember when Yi was the poster boy for FF...ahh, good times.
Ace Access 1 votesI remember when Yi was the poster boy for FF...ahh, good times.
tell me the story of yi ? pls
What Is Smite1 votesthere were 5 poster boys of FF on release, Riot made a bundle for them. The champions were Nocturne, Warwick, Xin Zhao, Master Yi, and Shyvana and the bundle included a skin from each of them. When FF was release it was broken beyond reason with scaling LS and Damage as the game went on, this meant that the first person to turn wriggles into FF would win the game cuz ER MAH GURD DAMAGEZ, and then Morello nerf batted the shit out of the item by increasing the amount of stacks need to turn wriggles into FF and removing the LS, following that he gave it some compensation to help stack it faster by including the kills and assists that junglers get as part of the Madred's razor passive.
Zmuecat4 votesWait, I know you are trying to tell me something. It's like a pattern or something, right? Hmm...
Wait, I get it, you're saying the recent changes to the jungle were J4's fault. That makes sense though, cause the alternative was the Lee Sin is a menace and needs to have something done to him.
So let's nerf J4, and change the jungle items back.
Sinlaire2 votesHey man. Lee Sin and Jarvan haven't always been a problem. It used to be Lee Sin and Vi, Lee Sin and Evelynn, Lee Sin and Shyvana, Lee Sin and Nunu, Lee Sin and etc.
God. as a 
JG main when did i miss the boat on her being OP. My girl still wrecks face like she has the hands of god but still doesnt have total dominance on a level that could be called Lee tier. Just something to watch out for if she feels like she's on a hot streak. Like 
without being as toxic when fed.
Purodyuusaa1 votesGod. as a
It was a while back. Early season 3 to mid season 3 I think? There was a point where Vi was monstrous in the jungle if only because of her ult. The forums complained about it for days.
Drukyul17 votesIt may have "worked" in elementary school, but it was still a 100% douche move by the teacher.
Silents4296 votesJesus Christ, a Riot member already answered this very question in the balance thread.
Stop fishing for upvotes.
Edit- http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hqw6bEoR-context-for-the-recent-jungle-item-adjustments?comment=00270000 For anyone not aware they answered this like 2 days ago. OP is just fishing for upvotes.
GigglesO16 votesJesus Christ, a Riot member already answered this very question in the balance thread.
Stop fishing for upvotes.
"Because we are trying to manage more levers" "We have a lot of work"
That isn't answering the question, that is avoiding the question of why they don't want to touch Lee Sin.
Silents4294 votesTry again.
Seriously these circle jerk threads just to make everyone pull out pitch forks again and again are obnoxious.
chumbler9 votesTry again.
Seriously these circle jerk threads just to make everyone pull out pitch forks again and again are obnoxious.
No, actually Riot's non-answers, favoritism, and general incompetence are the obnoxious things, hth.
Silents4295 votesLook at you, You are just trying to find things to get mad about, the link answered this posts question, the link goes in depth about the change why they did it, and how they are going about the current jungle changes.
chumbler6 votesLook at you, You are just trying to find things to get mad about, the link answered this posts question, the link goes in depth about the change why they did it, and how they are going about the current jungle changes.
No, it's the same useless shit they always say and more proof that they're utterly clueless. The constant refrain from Riot has been "We know we have a lot of work to do" and "We didn't communicate well" and "We fucked up, our bad" as though that somehow excuses the fact that they still fuck up constantly and in even worse ways and don't do any useful work or communicate worth a damn.
Not to mention they talk about how they have to get the systems in place before they can address Lee Sin/Jarvan when Lee Sin and Jarvan are the reasons they can't get the systems in place. They're doing everything they can do avoid fixing the problem, by which I mean actually dealing with Lee Sin and Jarvan.
Silents4295 votesObviously they do something right because every week theirs a new big topic everyone complains about, then the next week its something else. Your basing all this based on what you see on the forums, They are fixing the jungle, They have been tweaking the jungle/junglers every patch for the past few months. They are actively doing something.
You don't want to believe they are doing something, because you just want to complain about what they aren't doing the way you want it. Also FYI. Jarvan is only popular because he keeps up with Lee Sin, and Lee Sin isn't over powered just a loaded kit. Nothing game breaking, and I rather they fix the Jungle then deal with those two because a 100 upvoted post said too.
Abyssphere5 votesObviously they do something right because every week theirs a new big topic everyone complains about, then the next week its something else. Your basing all this based on what you see on the forums, They are fixing the jungle, They have been tweaking the jungle/junglers every patch for the past few months. They are actively doing something.
You don't want to believe they are doing something, because you just want to complain about what they aren't doing the way you want it. Also FYI. Jarvan is only popular because he keeps up with Lee Sin, and Lee Sin isn't over powered just a loaded kit. Nothing game breaking, and I rather they fix the Jungle then deal with those two because a 100 upvoted post said too.
You don't get the problem. Their posts talk about wanting to change Lee Sin carefully and in a meaningful way, and how they want to get the jungle finished before they do so. Yet champions like Amumu got nerfs in advance of the new jungle because "we think he'll be good in it". Why do they have to wait for the jungle to be 100% solidified for Lee but not others? And why couldn't they balance him in season 4 when they were oh so happy to destroy Elise and Evelynn at the same time?
Everything about their attitude to the jungle implies favoritism towards Lee and while their posts look genuine/heartening at first glance, once you look at how they treat every other jungler you're just left wondering why the only one they're so considerate with is Lee. They have Elise on a 42% win rate and are doing nothing, where is the care for her? Why must Lee Sin be balanced 100% perfectly but other junglers can be left to rot? Etc.
I'll believe Riot are seriously trying with Lee when I see actual changes to him, but for now it seems like empty words to try and convince people that they're not biased. It's hard to believe that when your favourite jungler is one who Riot had no qualms about throwing under a bus.
Silents4292 votesAmumu was buffed, the small unnoticeable hit to his base armor is nothing, and he got a new increase in damage for his W.
They aren't touching him because they want to make sure the changes they make work on the junglers like him, if they change him that screws up date a bit. And trying to take away form Lee Sin is harder then people make it seem, he is overloaded, and Riot knows this, the problem is they don't know what to take from him because they want people to still think he is fun. A perfectly legit reason.
Winrate means jack, thousands of other factors are involved with it, you also haven't seemed to actually look for yourself at Lee's winrate, its 45% So by your winrate logic he isn't even op, otherwise the 50 champions above him are.
And get this, Lee sin is widely played by LCS members as people so frequently bring up, he is also brought up on the forums a lot, as I already said, So. Why the hell do you think he gets more attention then Elise? Maybe if people got their head out of their ass for a bit, and decided to be productive, we could make more meangingful threads, actually discussions about taking from his kit without ruining him, discussions about Elise, or the Jungle or whatever.
But since were not doing that we just have to endure the same circle jerk threads about "LEE SIN OP LC$ PLAYS RIOT SUX" every friggin day.
Retillin2 votesDon't you wonder though? I mean we see nerfs to Corki because he is always picked. We see nerfs to Jax/Renenton/Trist. And then they fall out of favour for a while until a change comes around and they come back up.
You say the same circle jerk threads, but Riot has clearly (I don't think you can disagree) shows that some champions will not be touched even if they cause a problem. And frankly there should be a "circle jerk" every day if we get different answers to the same issue.
paraphrase here so stay with me:
Rioter #1 "blank champion is balanced" Rioter #2 "we know blank champion is having a negative impact on the jungle"
Things honestly said about Lee Sin by different Rioters when talking about jungle balance.
Silents4291 votesActual posts they make hold more water then a reply some random Rioter makes, they are all different people with different opinions and views, since they have made official posts about knowing Lee having a loaded kit it is fair to say they are aware of it and trying to fix it.
Renekton had the problem of being tanky, dealing high amounts of damage, etc. Tristana was insane as a hyper carry and hard to get to. Jax I don't really know, I never had problems with him when he was most played. Corki had insane burst.
You might think because they were popular they got nerfed but you would be half correct, the fact they got popular only showed the problems they had, as Riot has said plenty of times, they get much better feedback from the live servers when everyone is playing said champion. All it takes is someone to find a champion, then find something overpowered about them, then start playing them, eventually it picks up and Riot notices the problem that champion has.
Hyrum Graff1 votesThey have Elise on a 42% win rate and are doing nothing, where is the care for her?
You mean like how they buffed her q max damage to monsters?
Abyssphere1 votes[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2E02lAMh,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-01T15:59:22.775+0000)
You mean like how they buffed her q max damage to monsters?
No, because her win rate is 42% after that.
Ryu the first5 votes...that strat didn't even work in elementary LOL
chumbler4 votes[{quoted}](name=Ryu the first,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2E02lAMh,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-01-31T23:58:41.758+0000)
...that strat didn't even work in elementary LOL
Just shows you the quality of Riot's balance and design teams.
ImHerVoice4 votessince when does j4 have to do with getting first blood? his pre level 2 is awful rofl.
SEKAI2 votesSo they can pretend that they nerf those 2 but since everyone is dragged down, some of them even got kicked out, but no worries they will still remain at the top.
Aratez Treaty2 votesAny champion played right is annoying. Just use teamwork and hope you are better than the lee sin to beat him. If you can't, he might just be a bit better, or maybe you made some early mistakes and are now behind.
Gunpoint3 votes[{quoted}](name=Aratez Treaty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2E02lAMh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-31T20:32:13.907+0000)
Any champion played right is annoying. Just use teamwork and hope you are better than the lee sin to beat him. If you can't, he might just be a bit better, or maybe you made some early mistakes and are now behind.
Get off the cross kid, Lee Sin and Jaravan are op, it's really beyond debate.
Aratez Treaty1 votesGet off the cross kid, Lee Sin and Jaravan are op, it's really beyond debate.
So how old are you, an adolescent or someone who just tries to use his age to think he is better. As far as I'm concerned, you are the one complaining about a game that people says requires "skill," yet is only clicking behind a screen, without any life-lessons involved. Are you saying other champs can't kill them just fine?
High Lord Blaze2 votesIn what world is J4 OP...? It's that he's good in comparison to everyone else, since Riot decided to make the jungle complex and hard for a lot of champions.
SpongebobIsLife5 votesYes, J4 has never been op. He just completely outshines every jungler that isn't Lee Sin, with the exception of maybe Vi.
Lil Peeto1 votesHahaha!!! You haven't played long if you think J4 has never been OP. HAHAHAHA.
Aratez Treaty1 votes[{quoted}](name=Justin Memer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2E02lAMh,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-02-01T23:41:02.721+0000)
Hahaha!!! You haven't played long if you think J4 has never been OP. HAHAHAHA.
So other champions can't kill him just fine? What about 
. I can guarantee you these champions are able to kill a good Jarvan, and they don't have to be players that are better than the player playing Jarvan. If you have trouble, maybe you are playing wrong, or maybe you just aren't as good as that player. I'm not saying there have never been unfair champions, but now the champions are all even as regards their roles, so don't complain just because you can't face Jarvan. Not everyone has your problem, and not everyone has theirs.
Brenticus122 votesHe is OP atm though. The definition of an overpowered bruiser.
Most bruisers exchange damage for CC or CC for damage but not Jarvan. He has both. Idk when he started becoming such a goddamn problem but he was never this frustrating to play against before.
And now that people keep spamming the Gnarvan combo, it's getting even more anmoying.
Bears Dont Care1 votesMost bruisers exchange damage for CC or CC for damage but not Jarvan. He has both. Idk when he started becoming such a goddamn problem but he was never this frustrating to play against before.
Everyone else was nerfed pretty badly. Lee Sin does well because he has sustain that synergizes with his passive. Jarvan does well because he receives free defensive stats and his passive helps him with clearing so he doesn't get beat up too badly in the jungle.
Jarvan isn't a problem in himself, so much as the environment has changed to suit him.
Ace Access 1 votesEveryone else was nerfed pretty badly. Lee Sin does well because he has sustain that synergizes with his passive. Jarvan does well because he receives free defensive stats and his passive helps him with clearing so he doesn't get beat up too badly in the jungle.
Jarvan isn't a problem in himself, so much as the environment has changed to suit him.
why doesn't Riot make each monster camp deal have different stats based on which champ has the machete ?
the Anarchit3cht1 votesThat would be alarmingly complex.
rvn2svn2 votesHow do you fix it though? You can't make the Jungle harder for only the few OP ones.
Make it easier for everyone? Lee and J4 just got a massive buff because they could already survive pretty well in the hellish current jungle. Why would you play the lesser played jungles when the already OP ones just got even easier to play?
They should do this with every lane, honestly. Make it hard as hell to play each role and see what champs can survive. That should make pretty OBVIOUS that those champs need to be toned down.
Hawkefire1 votesAre we in elementary school where the teacher punishes the whole class because of two bad students? I mean come on that only worked in elementary school because of peer pressure not to mess up. It doesn't work in league because the other junglers can't peer pressure Lee Sin, and Jarvan into playing worse.
Simple. Riot only wants 1 master race of junglers.
Auryiel1 votesBecause they feel like if it's not those two abusing it, it's gonna be someone else.
Jesus, how hard is that to understand?
Instead of complaining about a perfectly reasonable systemic change, you should be complaining about the lack of buffs for the champions that have unjustly suffered from the change.
Abyssphere2 votesBecause they feel like if it's not those two abusing it, it's gonna be someone else.
Jesus, how hard is that to understand?
Instead of complaining about a perfectly reasonable systemic change, you should be complaining about the lack of buffs for the champions that have unjustly suffered from the change.
They have no problem with replacing one champ with another in other roles, how come the only lane where "someone else will be #1 if it's not the current one" is taken so seriously is jungle? Top lane's top champs change every month or so due to nerfs; the only constants are Irelia and Renekton. Bot lane has had Lucian and Tristana kicked out, Corki kicked out and Sivir/Graves/Kalista brought in, etc. We never heard "sorry we can't nerf Trist cos someone else will just be #1 anyway".
SpongebobIsLife3 votesbut Tristana and Lucian are still pretty good. They are played quite heavily by the player base and in the LCS still.
blobs21 votesu are clueless, they didnt increase price of item because j4 or lee but because of first blood giving enough gold to buy jungle item which gave the jungler who gets fb HUGE advantage
Retillin1 votesOr, or or... hear me out here. Lee and J4 got a lot of first bloods so they snowballed to a huge lead while Naut/Sej/Elise don't and fall way behind.
53872273_DEL1 votesWell, Lee Sin and J4 aren't doing anything, The kits of those two are just awesome. UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL! Are they annoying as hell? YES! Can they end up getting butts handed to? Yeah.. It's not punishing all the junglers. As you see if you read notes each patch. They are helping out the junglers' like upping the sustain and etc.. If you have sustain troubles buy the trailblazer. If you have ganking troubles then watch guides and streams. This game isn't hard at all. Every Champion has a counterplay, you just have to look for it. The reason lee and j4 are good is because they have a (dash) that lets them kick your fricking butt,,,,, If you have a speed up, or a utility that helps prevent failure you are fine.. Just learn to live with it, play your proposed champ so much till you are basically a damn fine and fluid summoner of that champ. Play all roles they fit in. Try new items. Write down the stuff you learn, so that way in the future if you quit playing said Champion, you will know what to do.. Please quit crying about stuff you can actually prevent.. It's like people want nerfs for champs who don't need them.
P.S. If you are childish you can down vote it, Let the advice be like water and food and feed your spirits and mind.. GOD BLESS
Nuclear Corvid1 votesHonestly, it's not so much J4's fault for once, so much as it is Gnar's fault for being strong/overbearing and having a very powerful interaction with the J4 ult.
Lee Sin, on the other hand, is and has been busted forever.
Cha The Boosted1 votesfull ad jarven top op as fuk
DarkenedSoul4201 votesIts ironic because they will still be the dominant junglers with these changes
Jamnon1 votesBecause they bring in the big money from LCS.