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Goodbye cancer ranged top picks

Z3SIeeper··51 votes·17,752 views

Edit: Everyone missing the point. These champions dick on melees with safe ranged auto attack spam in early laning. Nerfing their early laning auto spam by this much is a massive hit to this entire ranged vs melee fiasco. We didn't need a huge nerf to literally everything about all these champions, we just needed their base AD and AS to go down so we wouldn't have to worry about being basic attacked out of lane or even possibly losing melee 1v1's against them. Them getting compensation in the form of slightly better scaling is totally fine. If you don't get this you probably don't play top or just don't understand why these matchups are oppressive. It was never about their scaling, it was about their early lane bullying that denied melees from coming online in the first place. But by all means go ahead and keep memeing about -4 AD.

Your autoing every melee top laner to death from a distance won't be missed.

Jayce

  • Base AD lowered from 58 to 54
  • AD per level increased from 3.5 to 4.25
  • Shock Blast (Cannon Q) damage changed from [70/115/160/205/250/295 (+100% bAD)] to [55/105/155/205/255/305 (+120%bAD)]

Kennen

  • Base AD lowered from 50.544 to 48
  • AD per level increased from 3.3 to 3.75
  • Attack speed lowered from .69 to .625
  • Lightning Rush (E) attack speed increased from 30/40/50/60/70% to 40/50/60/70/80%

Neeko

  • Base AD lowered from 52 to 48
  • AD per level increased from 2 to 2.5
  • Attack speed lowered from .645 to .625
  • Attack Speed per level increased from 2.5 to 3
  • Shapesplitter (W) passive movement speed lowered from 20/25/30/35/40% to 10/15/20/25/30%

######I swear to god if these changes don't make it to live though

131 Comments

Mitsuk349 votes

Not goodbye, you still have Teemo and Vayne ^^

Z3SIeeper14 votes

Vayne eh, but Teemo is definitely hiding under Riot's radar somehow.

I was so hoping the Teemo gutting rework was gonna go through.

taleofsonata3 votes

{quoted}

Vayne eh, but Teemo is definitely hiding under Riot's radar somehow.

I was so hoping the Teemo gutting rework was gonna go through.

You do know Teemo is the last straw to veteran players? He is the mascot of league of legends gutting him will literally kill league quicker than anything you've seen.

HarveyiKfAbQ6 votes

Pretty sure most people would recognize either of Ryze, Ahri, or Katarina instead.

Teemo has never been a mascot more than those three.

EATARI3 votes

Teemo and Jinx were the only champs I recognized before playing myself.

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure most people would recognize either of Ryze, Ahri, or Katarina instead.

Teemo has never been a mascot more than those three.

Then why does teemo have that much merch? why did they do a whole statistics thing around teemo? Ahri is the only one close to the amount of merch he has and a large amount is linked to skinlines (kda/SG).

hate it as much as you like teemo is league's pikachu.

IainG104 votes

Except that he's a meme for all the vets. But yeah, I doubt there are many vets that'd quit over Teemo getting changed; if anything most vets'd probably celebrate....

tr4pz9 votes

How can teemo be gutted, he's already extremely bad.

Backstard3 votes

right?

Terozu19 votes

Teemo is a top laner, no matter how much you hate him he will always be balanced as a intentionally cancerous ranged top laner.

LTK KoRo3 votes

Teemo isn't even anymore a top5 or top 10 most cancerous toplaners,

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Not goodbye, you still have Teemo and Vayne ^^

Vayne has a 1.3% pick rate top lane.

She's not close to Neeko, Jayce, etc

Heko The Man2 votes

{quoted}

Vayne has a 1.3% pick rate top lane.

will increase if other champs get nerfed. also Quinn might also come back to life again (i hope not)

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Won't come back even then. Vayne top is still perpetually going to be ass-tier, and no amount of nerfs to other champions can fix that.

FSRER2 votes

And don't forget about Vladimir still being there

Mitsuk33 votes

Vladimir is ok. He isn't that strong early/mid game

Serge THE GREAT1 votes

{quoted}

Not goodbye, you still have Teemo and Vayne ^^

And Lucian. And Viktor, and Lissandra, and...

Critmaster Garen19 votes

nerfs dont fix the fundamental problem league has in melee vs. range matchups.

melee champions need ways to answer this kind of ranged poke, so these lanes can become more than "can i interact as little with my opponent as possible until my jungler may or may not show up?"

Hotarµ24 votes

nerfs dont fix the fundamental problem league has in melee vs. range matchups.

melee champions need ways to answer this kind of ranged poke, so these lanes can become more than "can i interact as little with my opponent as possible until my jungler may or may not show up?"

You're right, there needs to be abilities in a melee champion's kit that allows them to survive heavy ranged poke and also get in close to do their own damage.

Oh but wait, when Riot actually implements that into a champion's kit, the community hates it, calls it cancer, and constantly complains that it's OP.

Yasuo

wildfox9T8 votes

there is a difference between counterplay and negating any ranged existence because he pressed one key

if his WW was somehow interactive or wouldn't last for so long i don't think anyone would complain about it,in the same way people don't complain about abilities like Braum shield or XinZhao ult (which also negates ranged attacks,but are more healty)

EbonyBladeJ886 votes

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean it in THAT fashion. Oh wait, I should probably post this:

Your Post:

Me: https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/018/467/1355331549061.jpg

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Except Yasuo gets taken mid instead.

3TWarrior5 votes

Jax : fine (less so in a damage meta because there's no crowd control to peel him) and his E doesn't block abilities, which ranged champions have a plethora of

Sion : fine, lots of harass and ranged damage but it can be dodged, shield to lessen damage taken and overall a back and forth lane

Aatrox : you attack me, I attack you. there is no in-between!

Chogath : what's a snack doing in my lane? om nom nom

DrMundo : mundo goes where he pleases

there are PLENTY of options that don't just go "oh, I have counterplay for my counterplay, watch as my only weakness is my player!" you can work around his mechanics, but they feel AWFUL to play against and by the way, YASUO IS A MID-LANE CHAMPION...few to no people complain about him in top lane because his base stats are low enough that they CRUSH HIM, yet even then, the yasuo CAN MATCH THEM if skilled enough. His play rate is roughly 70% mid and 20% top, specifically 68% mid and 22% top atm

Now, yasuo may be a "balanced" champion, but his kit is frustrating because he has an answer FOR EVERYTHING. That's the reason that a lot of champions are disliked. Generalists have never been healthy in league's entire existence, but yasuo is a HYPER-CARRY with FOUR UNIQUE DEFENSIVE FEATURES IN HIS KIT...

Radiant Wukong3 votes

{quoted}

You're right, there needs to be abilities in a melee champion's kit that allows them to survive heavy ranged poke and also get in close to do their own damage.

Oh but wait, when Riot actually implements that into a champion's kit, the community hates it, calls it cancer, and constantly complains that it's OP.

Yasuo

That isn't the reason Yasuo is hated.

Exin05 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=292drrqz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-14T19:56:12.517+0000)

nerfs dont fix the fundamental problem league has in melee vs. range matchups.

melee champions need ways to answer this kind of ranged poke, so these lanes can become more than "can i interact as little with my opponent as possible until my jungler may or may not show up?"

its not fundamental problem its core of rock paper scissors balance. Honestly what do you want from riot to do? Nerf every ranged champion 2 feet under? Give every melee champions tools to easily deal with ranged opponent? First will kill half of the game second will create unkilable, unpokable, unkitable terminators and all ranged chapions will be f...d because ther will be countered by everyone (by assassins, by divers, by fighters, by jugg, etc.), great changes if you want kill off this game.

HarveyiKfAbQ2 votes

What is this rock paper scissors you talk about?

If Melees are the rock, and ranged are the paper, who is the scissor? Assassins?

Honestly, the only assassins who can beat ranged units reliably is Zed. The others only do incredibly well against marks men and die the moment they get stunlocked by mages who are also ranged units.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

its not fundamental problem its core of rock paper scissors balance. Honestly what do you want from riot to do? Nerf every ranged champion 2 feet under? Give every melee champions tools to easily deal with ranged opponent? First will kill half of the game second will create unkilable, unpokable, unkitable terminators and all ranged chapions will be f...d because ther will be countered by everyone (by assassins, by divers, by fighters, by jugg, etc.), great changes if you want kill off this game.

there are two problems with this statement.

1.) rock paper scissor balance is piss poor design. no one wants to play a game where the outcome of your lane is decided in champion select.

the dice happens to be stacked against you, and you have to pick your champion before your opponent 10 games in a row, get counterpicked as a result? i guess youre just not good enough at the game then.

2.) even in an environment of picks and counterpicks, the strength of those counters is still open for discussion. like a champion having an advantage in lane against another champion is fine and unavoidable, but a champion (type) being so strong against another champion (type) that that guy doesnt have a single success scenario and cant play the game is horrible gameplay. like who wants to play a game where your success is decided by your luck to pick your champion after your opponents and counterpick them for a free win?

i can play a lane of Garen vs. Darius where the darius has a lane advantage, and i can not make a single mistake in trades with him or i will get dunked on. but i still have the possibility of outplaying darius in trades and winning lane as a result, even if its hard.

but playing against champions like Karma Jayce klepto Kennen or Teemo means i dont ever have a chance to make a play on those champions with a lot of melee champions, by myself without losing.

for the same reason TahmKench is absolute aids in top lane, because he straight up wins every single matchup. even when he doesnt have much above 50% winrate. his current design is atrocious and broken for a champion. way overpowered in lane, and almost useless afterwards.

Voluug134 votes

Biggest issue is that ''give melee tools to survive vs ranged lane'' quickly turns into Irelia/Yasuo/Zed/Riven levels of terrible and onesided design. And then those awful designs turn into cancer matches for ''traditional'' melee top laners too.

What we need is probably better early tank itemization, and/or maybe to nerf early game top laner ''hybrid'' damage (while buffing their main/lategame damage type and maybe waveclear) so that melee toplaners can actually counterbuild in lane. As of now, characters like Kennen can just lol @ early defensive itemization because on-hit magic damage and starting with Doran's Blade for constant AA poke.

Of course as a whole it needs to be carefully designed and balanced to minimize off-class abuse like mid assassins completly ignoring any kind of lane weakness or to not make those items instant wins vs ranged).

RavenMagus3 votes

You are correct

We will never be rid of cancer ranged top lane matchups until we have cancer melee mid lane matchups.

Give melee the tools they need to answer the poke and they will be brought mid to stomp all over everyone there too (hi Irelia).

ZephyrDrake15 votes

These minor nerfs aren't going to do anything to ranged tops. You will still get poked down by them and now scale harder than before... but I guess dealing slightly less damage for the first 3-4 lvls is enough for you

Z3SIeeper10 votes

These are nowhere near minor changes. Jayce's is noticeably less than the others, but that's because Jayce already got hit a few times and is pretty damn close to acceptable.

As for the other two, note that their base AS is being hit as well. Kennen specifically is getting destroyed by this while Neeko is also having her W speed at level 1 cut in half which is absolutely massive.

Akali is SO HOT12 votes

Ranged top laners are never truly gone from top lane

Eedat9 votes

Goodbye? So they lowered their base AD by a couple for a few levels and barely tweeked an ability?

Luther King Jr V7 votes

4 ad is that much worth celeberating mate?

Marshbouy4 votes

-4 AD on a champion whose whole shtick is "autoing you to death" is a big fucking deal.

Eedat2 votes

-4 AD at level one, back to normal around level 4, then buffed after that

Marshbouy1 votes

Ranged top laners almost exclusively rely on hard poking someone down during the first few levels of the game, forcing them off CS, and snowballing that lead into a much bigger one later on in the lane. You're essentially reducing the majority of the damage that they can deal early on by 8% without taking into account other changes.

ArtumisPrime3 votes

The base AS nerfs are pretty huge (especially for Neeko)....but the AD nerfs are insignificant. It will take something like 15-20 AAs for them to lose a single AA worth of damage relative to before the nerfs, at level 1. And, they scale harder.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

-4 AD on a champion whose whole shtick is "autoing you to death" is a big fucking deal.

Jayce - Base AD lowered from 58 to 54 AD per level increased from 3.5 to 4.25

Jayce AD 9.13 vs 9.14

9.13 AD at level 2 - 61.5 9.14 AD at level 2 - 58.25

Net loss - 3.25 AD

9.13 AD at level 3 - 65 9.14 AD at level 3 - 62.5

Net loss- 2.5 AD

9.13 AD at level 4 - 68.5 9.14 AD at level 4 - 66.75

Net loss - 1.75 AD

9.13 AD at level 5 - 72 9.14 AD at level 5 - 71

Net loss - 1 AD

9.13 AD at level 6 - 75.5 9.14 AD at level 6 - 75.25

Net loss - 0.25 AD

9.13 AD at level 7 - 79 9.14 AD at level - 79.5

Net Gain - 0.25 AD

 

Level's 1 through 6 the base AD change to Jayce is a NERF

 

 

Neeko - Base AD lowered from 52 to 48 AD Per level increased to 2.5 from 2.

9.13 AD at level 2 - 54 9.14 AD at level 2 - 50.5

Net loss - 3.5 AD

9.13 AD at level 3 - 56 9.14 AD at level 3 - 53

Net loss- 3 AD

9.13 AD at level 4 - 58 9.14 AD at level 4 - 55.5

Net loss - 2.5 AD

9.13 AD at level 5 - 60 9.14 AD at level 5 - 58

Net loss - 2 AD

9.13 AD at level 6 - 62 9.14 AD at level 6 - 60.5

Net loss - 1.5 AD

9.13 AD at level 7 - 64 9.14 AD at level 7 - 63

Net Loss - 1 AD

9.13 AD at level 8 - 66 9.14 AD at level 8 - 65.5

Net Loss - 0.5 AD

 

Neeko's AD changes are a NERF until level 9.

 

 

Kennen - Base AD lowered from 50.544 to 48 AD per level increased from 3.3 to 3.75

9.13 AD at level 2 - 53.844 9.14 AD at level 2 - 51.75

Net loss - 2.094 AD

9.13 AD at level 3 - 57.144 9.14 AD at level 3 - 55.5

Net loss- 1.644 AD

9.13 AD at level 4 - 60.444 9.14 AD at level 4 - 59.25

Net loss - 1.194 AD

9.13 AD at level 5 - 63.744 9.14 AD at level 5 - 63

Net loss - 0.744 AD

Kennen's AD levels out at level 6 BUT he also has a base attack speed nerf which will impact his ability to bully often and to go for extended trades.

 

The goal of the changes is to reduce their ability to harass in the earlier levels but give it back in scaling.

Which by the looks of the numbers, the goal has been hit.

Exin01 votes

Which by the looks of the numbers, the goal has been hit.

Man i dont know, level 1 all ins arent probably usual thing and rest looks more like cosmetic then real changes. Do you really think that -3AD "nerf" offseted by scaling will do something? like after 2 minutes in lane is this nerf halved and and until six you are down by whooping 1 AD.

Cevrad5 votes

{quoted}

Your autoing every melee top laner to death from a distance won't be missed.

Jayce

  • Base AD lowered from 58 to 54
  • AD per level increased from 3.5 to 4.25
  • Shock Blast (Cannon Q) damage changed from [70/115/160/205/250/295 (+100% bAD)] to [55/105/155/205/255/305 (+120%bAD)]

Kennen

  • Base AD lowered from 50.544 to 48
  • AD per level increased from 3.3 to 3.75
  • Attack speed lowered from .69 to .625
  • Lightning Rush (E) attack speed increased from 30/40/50/60/70% to 40/50/60/70/80%

Neeko

  • Base AD lowered from 52 to 48
  • AD per level increased from 2 to 2.5
  • Attack speed lowered from .645 to .625
  • Attack Speed per level increased from 2.5 to 3
  • Shapesplitter (W) passive movement speed lowered from 20/25/30/35/40% to 10/15/20/25/30%

######I swear to god if these changes don't make it to live though

Imagine believing that these changes are enough to remove these champions from top lane.

preternatural4 votes

but dontcha know some starting item or rune will get changed and those kids will be able to use it and it will be "just like new"

KABLUMP2 votes

{quoted}

Your autoing every melee top laner to death from a distance won't be missed.

Jayce

  • Base AD lowered from 58 to 54

  • AD per level increased from 3.5 to 4.25

  • Shock Blast (Cannon Q) damage changed from [70/115/160/205/250/295 (+100% bAD)] to [55/105/155/205/255/305 (+120%bAD)]

You think that's a nerf?

my boy, that's just taking some from early and throwing on late game

thats a buff to triforce jayce, and with those ratio upgrades, that's a bigger buff to bruiser jayce than lethality jayce, both are decent though. Truth be told his early game wont be all that bad, even if the Q multiplier at levels 1/2/3 (So jayce will be level 5 because he levels QEQWQ) are a bit lower, you now have a champ who after level 5 is strictly buffed. This offsets the whole idea that jayce has strong abilities to counter his lack of an ult and therefore was balanced with the idea of getting an early lead and then running around killing people or forcing out their ultis while also forcing objectives, now he's just gonna snipe you in river from under his tower and you're gonna be like "K"

oh and as for math

117.5 at level 18 base ad up to 130.5 (Gotta check when the lines cross but it's probably around level 6 or so that it's a flat upgrade)

20% AD scaling on BASE Q without gate the gate brings that up to 28%

and that 15/10/5 at those first three ranks? you don't use shockblast for killing people that way, around rank 4 it's strictly an upgrade

you're gonna think differently when a jayce gets an early AD component item like a pickaxe, dirk, or warhammer

hell I don't see why I should go manamune every game now, that early AD finished item and MOAR Q's sounds great

Dimwitt2 votes

Oh we hit the top 3.

Don't worry Viktor Vladimir Ryze Quinn will take their place.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

Wait those are buffs to Kennen Jayce

WTF LOL [sg-lux-2]

NelsieLisnen1 votes

At least they left Quinn alone. Happy thoughts

JuiceBoxP1 votes

{quoted}

At least they left Quinn alone. Happy thoughts

I legit didn't see quinn ingame in the past month.

NelsieLisnen2 votes

Well ya, she isn't anywhere near as strong as those other lane bullies that are all top tier. I usually play Quinn when someone bans Kayle to punish their hubris.

uNhoLeee1 votes

lel top laners. complain more than adc mains.

Z3SIeeper3 votes

Guess which one gets more attention.

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