Riot has already put Yorick and Jarvan nerfs on the PBE ASAP

341123545652·Dec 4, 2017·93 votes·4,876 views

Meanwhile:

107 Comments

SalronDec 4, 201768 votes

"ASAP" J4 has been meta for the entire season

Do you even play the game?

Feel ApathyDec 4, 201725 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=20rW1orE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-04T02:02:19.535+0000)

"ASAP" J4 has been meta for the entire season

Do you even play the game?

JarvanIV Has been meta since release just like Lee Sin.

SalronDec 4, 201724 votes

That's a good one

XonraDec 4, 20173 votes

He has been not really played much like...what 1 season?

SalronDec 4, 20172 votes

All you need to do is look at their playrate/winrate history on leagueofgraphs to tell when they were meta for the most part

ModCaptainMårvelousDec 4, 201714 votes

For those too lazy:

J4 was played a bit in Season 2-ish. He had some play in S3. Season 4 was his huge spike when he was in the Vi-Lee-J4 trifecta of tanky DPS junglers. After that he fell into "ok" status until about S6.

Recon1212Dec 4, 20174 votes

J4 is in a miserable state right now. I played a game where I was getting one shot when he was like 2 screens off of me with 2 moves. He would e q miss, flash ult w aa, and i would die, how is that ok. He ruins the game with how strong he is.

OneriosDec 4, 201711 votes

That's more a duskblade/lethality problem (maybe triforce/gauge well) than anything else. His passive is 10% current health physical (not exactly out of line on tanks/bruisers), and an ult damage of 450+150% bonus ad is on the high end up bonus ad ratios but not unreasonable (panth q is 140% on a non crit, rene q is 80% in an aoe, lucian q is 100% at max rank, vi ult is 140%, graves ult is 150%, KX q is 110% with a potential 65% damage boost), so it's not like the damage built into his kit is out of line. The difference now compared to the past is duskblade, and the fact that he can cross so rapidly from outside of vision into ult range, ensuring that he always gets it off and once he gets the ability to start killing you like that you can't do much to stop it. J4 looks out of line because he is the easiest application case for it.

MordepoolDec 4, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feel Apathy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=20rW1orE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-12-04T02:11:07.008+0000)

Has been meta since release just like Lee Sin.

There was a whole season he was considered a troll pick not sure if it was s4 or s3

Feel ApathyDec 4, 20175 votes

{quoted}

There was a whole season he was considered a troll pick not sure if it was s4 or s3

Surely not because he was weak, but because other champions were above the god tier. LeeSin Nidalee RekSai Elise just a few

Succubús GFDec 5, 20171 votes

Honestly I haven't seen nidalee or elise in over 20 games..

SpaghettiVaseDec 5, 20171 votes

Well Elise is a pro pick if anything as well as Nidalee but they used to be godly back in the day

Succubús GFDec 5, 20171 votes

Nidalee in season 5 and 6 [sg-jinx]

ValyrianBladeDec 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feel Apathy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=20rW1orE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-12-04T02:11:07.008+0000)

Has been meta since release just like Lee Sin.

As someone who mained J4 in s5 and s6, I can guarantee you that J4 was not meta in either season. I never was unable to pick him due to an enemy picking him (or even my allied jungler, as I played him top). I also got accused of troll picking him top in champion select several times.

J4 was not meta until past the midpoint of season 7, and it wasn't until worlds that his popularity went nuts. Obviously when J4 is in a strong state, given that he's relatively easy to play, he'll get picked up a lot and become very meta. J4 shows up nearly every game at worlds? He instantly becomes meta in solo queue, and bam the nerf bat.

He was somewhat meta a few patches before worlds and really popular after.

Succubús GFDec 5, 20171 votes

LOL

WeedbroDec 4, 201742 votes

Zoe

AirKingNeoDec 4, 201734 votes

Pantheon

FatedSaviourDec 4, 201730 votes

Ornn

LiteUpSketchersDec 4, 201716 votes

I'm on mobile, but if I were on a computer I would attach an image of every single adc item.

Raid Boss MordeDec 4, 201723 votes

item 3153 item 3123 item 3508 item 3026 item 3031 item 3036 item 3139 item 3046 item 3094 item 3087 item 3072 item 3033

Like that?

KaìjuDec 4, 20175 votes

Ashe main chiming in, you aren't wrong. Our items are too cheap, it's actually disgusting. They need to all be 3k gold plus, maybe with a tiny boost in stats but only say 5% attack speed or 5 AD but even that is debatable since crit scales off itself so hard that maybe just boosting the parts and leaving the end items the same. But yeah the stats themselves are not the core issue, it's the price. Damage is too cheap.

LordGeovanniDec 5, 20171 votes

gold isnt an the issue when its that its easy for ranged champions to get them and for every 1 item an adc has they have 1.3 items on a fighter assassin or tank. adc items get cheaper but dont lose power but other classes lose power for cheaper items and others get bad value trade offs. item 3109 item 3083 item 3075 item 3143 item 3065 item 3001 (formerly item 3102 ) item 3060 item 3174 item 3068 item 3124 item 3071 item 3156 item 3056 item 3091 item 3053 item 3107 item 3800

KaìjuDec 5, 20173 votes

Actually if you raise the price it's the perfect solution. It it takes an ADC doing well 35 minutes to get full build then you have 35 minutes to end. If you start an early comp and don't end before a class based on carrying finishes their very expensive build then I think you should lose. Playing hyper carries should have a risk that the game all end before you get your big power spoke and adding gold cost would do that. Then you could play lethality carries and spike at 2 or 3 items rather them hyper carries at 4 items.

LordGeovanniDec 5, 20171 votes

The thing is the hypercarry concept as far as markemen is concerned is new since during season 4 hyper carries came from subsets of fighters like Jax and Master Yi. As defense got progressively worse to speed up the game Adcs picked up the hyper carry role as far as versus champions were concerned without ever getting worse at their original roles constant damage and objective taking. What you are talking about is that you are trying to gate adc power through bigger item costs but the problem with adcs isnt mainly how fast they reach their power its their power over all relative to everything else. The one thing that counters adcs being armor you have to go 4 items deep to get any significant effect versus adcs and when penetration items is added (both from the adc and the Black cleaver carrying fighter) in you have to go another item deep to make it feel like you dont have half an item worth of armor and defense. If you have a built in shield you can do slightly better. but then you are squishy to magic damage even though you have one magic resist item and trade having any damage impact and if you are building like that also traded range in your initial pick.

KaìjuDec 5, 20172 votes

Is Ashe a hyper carry?

LordGeovanniDec 5, 20171 votes

she not a hyper tank i dont carry as hard as the rest of my class (not that she is the worst even if she is a beginner champion with a large playerbase) so i must not be a carry must a sound arguement

Raid Boss MordeDec 4, 20172 votes

She has nerfs on the PBE too though

NineTailedMysticDec 4, 20172 votes

Not really nerfs, per se.

Raid Boss MordeDec 6, 20171 votes

Those are pretty big nerfs to her E though. There's also a pretty big nerf to her W. Check the patch notes, they went more in-depth with her nerfs

NineTailedMysticDec 6, 20171 votes

I don't think they hit her core issues. Absurd Q damage, RNG W, cleansing E doesn't remove the bonus damage effect, E still has odd interactions with being cleansed (treated as both a one part and two part CC, taking the better effect)...

LegitBusinessmanDec 4, 201720 votes

LET'S DO WHATEVER WE NEED TO GO TO GET 3 MORE YEARS OF GRAGAS TOP TIER JUNGLE.

NOT BORING TO WATCH.

AT ALL.

DeadUnbornDec 4, 201715 votes

4/10 originality 3/7 validity 8/10 redundant whining

undesirable teamDec 4, 20174 votes

{quoted}

4/10 originality 3/7 validity 8/10 redundant whining

0/10 original 1000/1 validity (complaining about twitch = 10000% on my watch) 0/10 redundant whining twitch has been broken forever

Big Black CrocDec 4, 20178 votes

Name checks out

SkorchDec 4, 201715 votes

Hmm... Let me just check LoG real quick Jarvan: 53% winrate. Yorick: 53.5% winrate. Twitch 51.3% winrate.

OK. Hell i havent even SEEN a twitch in like... 20 games.

This is becoming a bigger meme than Yasuo.

AbibyamaDec 4, 201719 votes

Friendly reminder that the boards still has ADC hate boner

SkorchDec 4, 20176 votes

yeaaaaah... Honestly i hope Riot doesnt listen to about.... 80% of what gameplay says.

EDIT: They have a few good things to say. But most of the time they just freak out and circlejerk around a champion that was indirectly nerfed but they didnt get an ACTUAL nerf so they will just bitch for 4 or so months on end about a nonissue

ShirukuSamaDec 4, 20173 votes

Winrate alone means nothing

Jarvan: 53% win rate with 22% pick rate Twitch: 51.3% and 6% pick rate

Yorick: 53% win rate and 2% pick rate. http://na.op.gg/champion/yorick/statistics/top

Rito should buff towers or nerf grasp, but they instead nerf Yorick who is mostly played by mains. Really clever.

SkorchDec 4, 20176 votes

K you covered the yorick thing. But i still see no reason to nerf twitch based on what you tell me.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 4, 20172 votes

HM maybe because twitch has been busted for one year, is still busted and will come back once ezreal and mf get actual nerfs. Then you can come back on these boards and complain about the "adc hate boner" when he then rocks a 55% winrate again. Btw simply posting winrates alone and saying he is fine is not how a discussion works. Your numbers are worthless without cntext. Lemme help you: nearly 52% winrate as a "lategame hypercarry" in one of the most snowbally metas ever. Yup seems like twitch is "fine"-

SkorchDec 4, 20174 votes

Twitch: 51.3% and 6% pick rate Hmm nope added pickrate no problem there...

"nearly 52% winrate as a "lategame hypercarry" in one of the most snowbally metas ever." See heres the thing with Winrate... it incorporates EVERYTHING. In other words he is BALANCED in an UNFUN PERIOD. That doesnt make him broken. Your issue is the snowball meta. 51% winrate is BALANCED. And yes 51% it is way closer to 51% than 52% number inflation wont help you.

And you know what if he was rocking a 55% winrate. I wouldnt be saying that "the boards hates ADCs" You know where that stigma comes from? Hating on an ADC that has a 51% winrate when there is PLENTY worse offenders.

IF he skyrocketed to 55% winrate again sure go ahead, complain, he deserves a nerf. But Nerfing a champion that is "OK" because he CAN become stronger if there is a huge meta shift is an ass backwards downright retarded thing to do.

Faceroll TacticsDec 4, 20173 votes

He's a late game champ that has a good winrate in a state where we barely get to midgame

If game length goes up significantly we will see twitch up way past 55% if he is performing this well in a meta that doesn't suit him.

SkorchDec 4, 20174 votes

Again, the issue with the game isnt that we barely get to midgame. In a snowbally, instagib, short game meta. The issue is you dont get to midgame. The issue is you get to late game very fast.

If an ADC is 3 4 or 5 items at 20min, its not a "Welp we finally reached midgame hes really fed" Its "Welp the meta is super snowbally, and that twitch got his LATE GAME SPIKE at like 20min." You are in the late game now, its just faster.

Is that a good thing? FUCK NO. But that "HURR DURR ADCs GOOD IN A SNOWBALLY META, WHERES THE MIDGAME, WHY ARE THEY STRONG PRE 40MIN?" argument is dumb. The issue is they got a fuck ton of gold, time doesnt matter fuckall to an adc if they are sitting on a mountain of gold.

So again i say it. Issue is snowball meta, Not HURR DURR ADCs STRONK AT 15MIN.

Faceroll TacticsDec 4, 20172 votes

ADCs as a whole need to be nerfed. The entire class has been meta for 7 years.

At least we go through periods of tanks/fighters/assassins in the jungle, but bot lane is always stale.

SkorchDec 4, 201710 votes

I hate the "ADC has been meta" thing so god damn much. Because it is so misinformed. And incredoubly a double standard. Every role has around 3 metas it switches between based on other metas. Top: Tank/Jugg/Bruiser. Occasional one-off picks like quinn. JG: Tank/Carry/Assassin Mid: Mage/Assassin. Occasional off character like Yasuo. Support: Tank/Enchanter/Mage ADC: Marksman.

Do you know the issue with marksman though? There is Lethality/Crit/Other. It also has a defined meta, and rotating group of champions that are strong. That is no different.

But thats not the argument is it? Well why isnt there mages/bruisers/assassins/etc filling the carry role? A few reasons.

Because of Marksman in general. I know people want champions to go into the marksman role... but Riot doesnt want a solid 6th of their roster unplayable. So they would have to be balanced elsewhere. Marksman are SPECIFICALLY balanced under the fact they usually have a support, have weaker laning phase (with the exception of having range.) They would have to balance marksman everywhere else to get other people bot, which would be a nightmate.
Riot, Because that is what has worked so well so far. Is it kinda stale? yes. but there is a reason that they settled there in the first place and Riot balanced it around that.
The double standard. Sure if you call Marksman just Marksman they are the only class with their own role. But lack of diversity is a problem in... EVERY SINGLE LANE. Not everyone can go everywhere thats why i call it a double standard. Assassins arent meta top lane, Mages arent meta top lane, bruisers arent meta anywhere other than top lane, supports arent meta outside support. Not everyone can go everywhere.

That was a really long rant but good lord i find the "ADCs are always ADCs" Thing SO DUMB AND MISINFORMED.

JackMcSnipeyzDec 4, 201711 votes

Maybe cause both of them have higher winrate than twitch and his winrate dropped this last couple of patches? (With the removal of feravor and ardent meta).

Dead Anime DadDec 4, 20178 votes

Man, poor yorick gets to be relevant for once since he has been reworked and he gets hit with a nerf almost immediately.

devdev463Dec 4, 20176 votes

There has never been a point in my time with j4 where I thought he was bad tbh. It's funny watching people call him OP and then when he's not top tier all anyone can talk about is how "weak" his ult is. In my mind he's the orianna of the jungle, you can run him into literally any team comp and play him with any team and he will always be a valuable pick.

Harden StepbackDec 4, 20175 votes

Jayce

EbonboltDec 4, 20176 votes

Sry man, boards is a realm where vayne is the most broken champion in the entire game regardless of meta, adcs and zed are god tier no matter what and champs like jayce and leblanc are completely reasonable:D