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I propose the removal of free stats.

Aheadatime··6 votes·1,491 views
http://imgur.com/CRFDo0r

Edit 2 - This is not a 'nerf' thread. I didn't state anywhere in this OP or any of my responses that I want to nerf any champion at all, whatsoever. Getting rid of bundles of free stats and replacing them with unique, interactive abilities (or integrating them into the champ's per level stats/ratios) was the idea behind this post, as should be extremely obvious through the post itself. Sheesh people. Read the damn thing before commenting.

RekSai 20/40/60% attack speed. Yasuo Double crit %. Zed 5/10/15/20/25% bonus AD. Morgana 10/15/20% spellvamp. Akali 6%+ spellvamp. Fiora 15/20/25/30/35 AD. Fizz Ignore unit collision. Reduced damage taken from autos.

I'm not talking about things like Lee's w, Jax's ult or even Yas's ult (even though I hate that free ArPen), because there are windows of opportunity to utilize/avoid these free stats. I'm talking about straight-up permanent free stats. The concept is boring, non-interactive, and occupies room in the champ's kit that could be used in a more interesting way.

More new champs are coming out with these bundles of stats and it's uninteresting. Mechanics interest me more than stats do, like Thresh's hook/lantern, Kallista's movement, Skarner's ult, Vayne's condemn, Malzahar's disease, Nocturne's ult, Jarvan's ult, Braum's shield, and Azir's soldiers/towers. These things are super unique and interactive. You can learn to avoid them, position yourself against them, build against them, counter-strike when they're on CD, etc.

You can't do any of that with free stats (besides building against them). Even the user of the free stats champ can't do anything with them besides acknowledge them. They're just there. I propose that this trend stops before it gets boringly out of hand.

**Edit **- **I intentionally did not include conditional stats. Vlad's passive, Galio's passive, MF's passive, etc. These are stats that are only granted upon a condition being met, and thus, they're not entirely free. I also did not include aura stats like Taric's W, Janna's passive, and Zilean's passive, as they're more team-oriented than stats granted strictly to the user. In most cases, these are necessary regarding the champion's identity. **

It should also be noted that the examples I posted are just examples. It wasn't a comprehensive list. I do not have anything against these champions or their kits outside of the lameness of free stats. I could not think of any creative compensation buffs for the aforementioned champions as I do not play most of them and didn't assume that you guys would be so upset that I didn't provide any ideas on the matter.

48 Comments

Pumbarg6 votes

Looks like you just want to nerf a bunch of champions without any real counter buff for it.

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Yeah, OP. Name several ways there would be a counterbalance.

Aheadatime1 votes

Zed is a particular case. He is pretty strong atm, and is probably going to get nerfed without compensation. I could see Riot increasing his ratios if they removed his free bonus AD, though. That'd make alot of sense. I don't like thinking about changing him all that much until he is in a balanced state though, because like I said, he's too strong atm.

Fizz could simply be given a couple of extra level 1 armor and 5 more movement speed. Or you could get creative and make it so that if Fizz is traveling towards his fish after using his ult, he ignores unit collision and gains 10% movement speed or something.

Fiora is getting reworked, so nothing there for me to care about/work with.

Akali's spellvamp could be buffed, but moved over to her shroud so that she only has access to her sustain when inside the shroud. This creates a clear incentive for the Akali player to use her shroud wisely, and gives her opponents access to prevent or hinder her power budget.

I can't think of a good, creative passive for Morgana nor Yasuo tbh, and Rek'Sai is still too new to deem OP, UP, or balanced, so she provides the aforementioned Zed dilemma.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

Hmm. Acceptable response.

Aheadatime1 votes

Of course not. I couldn't think of any creative compensation buffs for these champs because I don't play any of them. In the OP I stated pretty clearly that these free stats occupy "room in the champ's kit that could be used in a more interesting way."

In other words, remove the free stats and give us something more unique and meaningful. You could help out by thinking of some unique compensation buffs for them.

AHeroNamedHawke5 votes

>Says Vlad's passive doesn't count because you have to buy something >Says Yasuo's passive does count because you have to buy something and get double

We've reached a kek singularity

Aheadatime1 votes

That's a good point. I guess I'm being a bit bias in this regard, as I personally see Vlad's/Galio's passive as more creative than Yasuo's. Maybe that's just me, I dunno.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

That's a good point. I guess I'm being a bit bias in this regard, as I personally see Vlad's/Galio's passive as more creative than Yasuo's. Maybe that's just me, I dunno.

At least address everything equally

The complaint holds some merit but not when you nitpick the champions you don't like

Aheadatime1 votes

It's not that I don't like Yasuo. Personally, I think he's awesome and his kit is an incredible example of melee potential. I just think giving him double crit % was lazy and uncreative. Again, that's just me being bias and I'm not going to pretend that it's not. Maybe some people think that's crazy creative, and there's no way I can disagree with that as it's subjective.

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

{quoted}

It's not that I don't like Yasuo. Personally, I think he's awesome and his kit is an incredible example of melee potential. I just think giving him double cirt % was lazy and uncreative. Again, that's just me being bias and I'm not going to pretend that it's not. Maybe some people think that's crazy creative, and there's no way I can disagree with that as it's subjective.

And I agree that handing out stats to compensate for power creep is less interesting than unique design

Aheadatime1 votes

Thank you! That was the main point of the OP. Glad some of you can agree with the foundation, even if there details that you disagree with.

Kuroi865 votes

Lets also remove! Vi Free on his shield, % hp damage, armor reduction and attack speed bonus. XinZhao Free armor reduction and on hit heal. Alistar Ignore unit collision and deal AoE magic damage after every ability. Caitlyn Free mini crits.

Lets rework champs and make them more complicated just for the sake of being more complicated!

Aheadatime2 votes

{quoted}

Lets also remove! Vi Free on his shield (Temporary. Conditional.), % hp damage**(Not a stat. It's a form of damage.), armor reduction and attack speed bonus(Temporary. Conditional.).** XinZhao Free armor reduction (Temporary. Conditional.)and on hit heal (Conditional Mechanic.) Alistar Ignore unit collision and deal AoE magic damage after every ability (Temporary. Conditional). Caitlyn Free mini crits.(Not a stat, a mechanic.)

Lets rework champs and make them more complicated just for the sake of being more complicated!

Tundra Fizz4 votes

{quoted}

Fizz Ignore unit collision. Reduced damage taken from autos.

So Fizz will literally not have a passive at all then according to your proposed changes?

lol

Aheadatime1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tundra Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=20eTK47j,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-01-12T06:10:47.859+0000)

So Fizz will literally not have a passive at all then according to your proposed changes?

lol

So you didn't read through the thread or the OP at all then? I stated in the OP that these bundles of stats would be replaced with something more interactive and creative. Replaced with something more interactive. Replaced.

LordCrazyGlue3 votes

I agree Riot has talked about not liking free stat since season 2 and they keep putting out champs with free stats cause honestly I think they are out of unique ideas. They now have the "Let's build this massive op champ with bunch of passives that shouldn't be there and sell as many riotpoints as we can before we nerf him." The Yi rework was the beginning of this. This is not the end of it either. Sadly

Aheadatime1 votes

{quoted}

I agree Riot has talked about not liking free stat since season 2 and they keep putting out champs with free stats cause honestly I think they are out of unique ideas. They now have the "Let's build this massive op champ with bunch of passives that shouldn't be there and sell as many riotpoints as we can before we nerf him." The Yi rework was the beginning of this. This is not the end of it either. Sadly

They still totally have the capacity for creativity. Thresh is new-ish and his kit is awesomely unique. Kallista's new and her movement is very unique, along with her soul-bound. Rek'Sai's tunnels are pretty unique and fun to use. I agree that this 'free stat' thing has been going on for a long time, and that it makes champions feel stale, but the creativity that goes into some of these abilities is also worth mentioning for sure.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

This thread is implying that Riot doesn't balance the champions based on their personal kits and steroids.

Then again, 99.9% of the threads in this entire section basically tell Riot that they're not balancing the game right, according to Random Player #42,748,341,920

What is actually wrong with a champion's kit including a stat perma-steroid? Please explain.

Aheadatime1 votes

{quoted}

This thread is implying that Riot doesn't balance the champions based on their personal kits and steroids.

Then again, 99.9% of the threads in this entire section basically tell Riot that they're not balancing the game right, according to Random Player #42,748,341,920

It's not implying anything about balance. This sub-forum is called "Gameplay & Balance", and this thread is speaking to the "Gameplay" side of things. As I said in the OP, free stats are boring and uncreative, and the kits they reside within could be made more interactive and entertaining if the stats were removed and better mechanics were introduced in their place. I never once said anything about being overpowered, or about balance in general for that matter.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

So the problem is, "It's boring!"

Because absolutely everything has to be flashy, indirect and fancy.

Why let Fiora have an innate 35 AD when we can just increase the base damage of her Q and R by 21 and 31 respectively, and give her +35 innate growth AD?

Aheadatime1 votes

{quoted}

So the problem is, "It's boring!"

Because absolutely everything has to be flashy, indirect and fancy.

Why let Fiora have an innate 35 AD when we can just increase the base damage of her Q and R by 21 and 31 respectively, and give her +35 innate growth AD?

Not flashy or fancy, just interesting. Wouldn't you say that a skillshot is more interesting than a point-and-click, assuming they both do nothing more than deal damage? I mean there are extremes on both ends. If everything were too direct and similar, everybody would just have the same abilities and there'd be no variation whatsoever. If everything was overly flash and complicated, the game would give everyone seizures. I'm just saying that I feel free stats are lazy, could be implemented directly into the champs base stats, and that unique mechanics are more interactive.

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

Skill shots and targeted spells both have their own advantages and disadvantages. Targeted spells tend to have shorter range, but can bypass non-targets. Skill shots, as a rule, are longer range, and vary in the number of targets they can strike. Skill shots are avoidable, so they tend to have a much smaller zone of threat than a targeted spell, despite having a longer range.

Each kind of mechanic can be interesting when put in the proper context.

Yeah, it's nice to have unique mechanics and interactions, but it's not like they're always necessary. Simplicity doesn't always mean it's easy and boring.

Aheadatime1 votes

Simplicity can be amazing. Thresh's hook and lantern are both very simple, but both extremely interactive and healthy. When I use words like creative, interesting, or interactive, I don't necessarily mean complex or difficult. It's just that I'd much prefer an interactive ability like a hook over a non-interactive clump of stats like 25 free AD.

SEKAI2 votes

Removal of "free stats"?

How is first blood drawn if that's the case? I don't want to wait for the entire game hoping to bump into a retard who walks under tower knowing that he has no damage just to get tagged by my AA so I can steam roll across the whole map with my newly bought long sword.

If you get what I mean.

LordCrazyGlue1 votes

{quoted}

Removal of "free stats"?

How is first blood drawn if that's the case? I don't want to wait for the entire game hoping to bump into a retard who walks under tower knowing that he has no damage just to get tagged by my AA so I can steam roll across the whole map with my newly bought long sword.

If you get what I mean.

Use Skill and Mechanics to get first blood instead of OP champs with free-bees that get you first blood cause their kit is bloated with extras.

SEKAI2 votes

Tbh though, Hecarim has no unit collision by default and ad that scales with ms but it's ok he is balanced so that remains as his "uniqueness".

Then there are say Lee Sin or Fizz, where they just have too many things to outplay an opponent hence "overloaded kit".

I like the former and despise the latter.

It's not an issue of whether having free stats or not, but the problem of having too much and uncontrollable.

Aheadatime1 votes

{quoted}

Removal of "free stats"?

How is first blood drawn if that's the case? I don't want to wait for the entire game hoping to bump into a retard who walks under tower knowing that he has no damage just to get tagged by my AA so I can steam roll across the whole map with my newly bought long sword.

If you get what I mean.

I don't get what you mean tbh. Are you referring to items/runes/masteries? If so, you're mistaken. Masteries and runes come with an opportunity cost of not using other masteries and runes, along with runes' ip cost and masteries' level cost. Items cost gold. Neither of these make sense.

If you're referring to damage-dealing abilities in general, well that wouldn't make much sense either. Abilities don't grant free stats (unless they do, which was the point of my OP), they grant damage (and possibly CC, etc). This damage isn't even free, because even if the champ doesn't use mana or energy, the cost is putting the spell on cooldown.

EndGamer112 votes

Kinda funny how you list Azir's tower when he has "free stats" on the same ability.

Aheadatime2 votes

First of all, his tower *is *unique. Just because it exists within a kit that gives him what you define as free stats (see below), doesn't make that claim illegitimate. It's like saying "lol you say Yas gets free stats but I think we can all agree that his windwall is very unique".

And Azir's 'free stats' are conditional. I didn't include any conditional stats ie, Vlad's passive, Galio's passive, MF's passive, Teemo's move quick, etc. All of these abilities require some condition to be met before providing the stats. If we removed every shred of bonus anything in every champ's kit, that'd be an incredible undertaking. I don't mind conditional stats like that at all, as alot of times they create very unique kits/champions.

I'll edit the OP to clarify this point, along with the 'aura' point.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Why nerf Rek'sai's passive?

LordCrazyGlue1 votes

{quoted}

Why nerf Rek'sai's passive?

Come on man Rek'sai is way overpowered. first game I played her I didn't even know what she did and finished 8/4/17 just mashing buttons. That is an overpowered kit if I have ever seen one.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

{quoted}

Come on man Rek'sai is way overpowered. first game I played her I didn't even know what she did and finished 8/4/17 just mashing buttons. That is an overpowered kit if I have ever seen one.

Dude...I've gone 12/0/14 as Evelynn, that doesn't mean shit in terms of how good a character is, and that was my frst time playing her.

LordCrazyGlue2 votes

I love how this community is..... Anyone suggests taking away their Freelo and they freak out and mass down vote the thread.

Aheadatime1 votes

I'm not sure if I'm getting downvotes because I listed a set of particular champions as you suggest. It could be that, or it could just be that people genuinely feel that free stats are creative and really define certain champions. I can't tell, as nobody has given me a reasonable argument yet.

FalconPawwwwnch2 votes

Yea I agree, remove every steroid from ADCs

Aheadatime2 votes

Steroids are boring, yes, but they're different than the 'free stats' I define in the OP. Steroids usually cost mana, are always temporary, and go on cooldown. Permanent free stats do not.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

Tristana's passive, Corki's passive, Kog'Maw getting free AS passively from Q, etc

Aheadatime1 votes

All of which I'm not a fan of. I would rework all of those abilities if I were working for Riot's balance team and had the time to do so.

Slushi Simcambi2 votes

Free stats and having passive within passives in kits seems to be the direction that newer more OP champs are going.

Oh well.

Aheadatime2 votes

Yeah I'm not a fan of the double passive thing either. I think sometimes Riot adds more things to a kit in order to make it seem more unique or creative when the same sense of creativity can be achieved with far less stuff.

SeargentAnus2 votes

Aatrox Blood Pool Ahri Spell vamp Akali Spell Vamp Alistar Free Damage Amumu MR Shred Anivia Free revive Annie Free CC Ashe Free Crit Azir CDR=AS, Free tower Blitzcrank Free shield Brand Free damage Braum Free CC Caitlyn Free damage

Just to name a few.

Aheadatime1 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox Blood Pool Conditional. Has Cooldown. Not a stat. Ahri Spell vamp Conditional. Akali Spell Vamp Agreed. Alistar Free Damage Conditional. Not a stat. Amumu MR Shred Agreed. Anivia Free revive Not a stat. Annie Free CC Not a stat. Ashe Free Crit Agreed. Azir CDR=AS, Free tower Conditional. Blitzcrank Free shield Not a stat. Brand Free damage Not a stat. Braum Free CC Not a stat. Caitlyn Free damage Not a stat.

Just to name a few.

Pumbarg1 votes

I mean.... Zileans passive gives 8% increased experience gain to allies around him but I dont see him on this list. Udyr passive gives him 5 move speed and 10% attack speed each time he switches stances, where is he on this list of "free stats"

LordCrazyGlue1 votes

{quoted}

I mean.... Zileans passive gives 8% increased experience gain to allies around him but I dont see him on this list. Udyr passive gives him 5 move speed and 10% attack speed each time he switches stances, where is he on this list of "free stats"

The Zilean passive does not give free stats it boosts leveling faster at the expense of any form of sustain (It also used to be global and was indeed in the free stat column hence why riot changed it to the range it is). Udyr move speed and AS are not permanent they go away after a short Cd hence not free stats. Just temp buff's for changing stances

Aheadatime2 votes

Udyr's stats are temporary and conditional. Zilean's passive is an aura. Neither of these examples relate to my point in the OP. A champion getting permanent free stats for himself only is what I was referring to. I edited my OP for clarification.

No Fun Police1 votes

Rek'sai, Zed and Fiora stats are not "free" in any sense - you need to level up an ability to get those. I think they could get even more base/per-level stat moved into abilities that are otherwise one-point wonders. That way player gets a choice: do I level up something that'll become much stronger, or do I level my QoL/one-point-wonder to get stats I'm otherwise missing? This is IMO the best way of balancing those champions, by gimping their early-midgame hard and forcing them to choose. Also, I think Azir could get his CDR-into-AS moved from static pasisve into W levels, gaining 0.25%/0.5%/0.75%/1%/1.25% AS for each 1% of CDR.

Raptamei1 votes

List of free stat champions that should be nerfed according to the OP:

Amumu Damage block. Lissandra Free spells! Sona Auras! Nocturne AoE damage and lifesteal. Diana AoE damage and totally free 20% AS. Garen Health regen. Teemo Poison auto attacks. Swain Mana when you kill a unit. Etc.

I think we can all agree that the OP has a good point and Garen and Diana are game breaking because of their passives.

Aheadatime2 votes

Sigh.. Read the other 13 comments just like this one. I'm not saying to nerf anybody. I'm saying to get rid of free stats and replace them with more creative abilities. If you took Fiora's free AD away and upped all of her ratios while simultaneously giving her a completely new ability, would you consider that a nerf?

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