Getting real sick of this "flip of the coin" mentality

Aheadatime·Jul 13, 2015·79 votes·5,554 views

I've been getting a recent surge of these players who think league games are a flip of the coin. What I mean is that if we don't steamroll immediately, all hope is lost to them. In their mind, whoever gets a few kills or a drag early is going to win the game, and the only reasonable thing to do now is afk until 20 minutes. They have no understanding that they are a factor in whether we win or lose, and that their actions can single-handedly win us the game.

Had an annie do this recently. She got killed once by TF, and harassed the jungler for it(?). Me and jinx get a double kill, she dies again to enemy jng, and decides its game over, even though she was up in farm and had her ludens complete at this point. Like cmon man. I'm sona. You're annie. Flash in there, tibbers, and let's clean this shit up. So frustrating to have one of our major sources of damage, zone control, and CC just give up as if those 2 deaths of hers gave the enemy team 10,000 gold a piece or something.

Sorry, just venting. But please, if you join ranked, consider yourself an extremely valuable asset to your team and play accordingly. Don't treat ranked like a gamble, like a coin flip. "Either we steam roll or we don't and its game"

77 Comments

LordDarkshaydeJul 13, 201520 votes

I completely understand where you are coming from. I played Azir top lane against a Riven and while that matchup usually goes well for me I actually got outplayed and fed her 3 kills before laning was over. Bot lane screaming "GG Riven fed" so I muted them all and continued to play it out. I ended the game 12-8-12 because I was not willing to give up just because I had a poor laning phase and I wish more players would have this same mentality. The game isn't over until the Nexus falls.

AheadatimeJul 13, 20157 votes

Yeah it's super frustrating to deal with these players in promos especially. I've failed my gold -> plat promos 3 times now this season, and there was at least 1 game from each promo series where a player like this would emerge. I understand that I made mistakes as well, and that I need to improve upon my play in order to rank up, but these players don't feel like that. They simply want to steamroll and have the enemy surrender@20.

Iron IV dudeJul 13, 20154 votes

Only 3 times?.. I might hit my 11th time soon....

TheRainInSpainJul 14, 20151 votes

Had games where we had all the dragon kills and just knocked down an inhibitor.... (all allied inner towers were standing)

Yet, three of my teammates wanted to surrender because they thought the enemy team would steam roll us.

LICENSED HOOKERJul 13, 20157 votes

Seriously yo, i hate when people ff just because 1 lane did horribly im like.

WE DIE WITH THE SHIP

PikmintsJul 13, 20156 votes

I've seen this for a while now. Last season in ranked, our team's extended invade resulted in the enemy Fizz getting 2 deaths and he went AFK from there. 5 minutes in, the enemy jungler was the only one still trying with the rest sitting at fountain.

First, invade kills rarely grant people much in terms of both gold and exp so any lead gained was minimal. Did it hurt their odds compared to if they didn't die, of course, but they still could've won. Secondly, one player leaving caused the rest of the team to immediately stop trying. Did it hurt their odds compared to if it wasn't a 4v5, of course, but they still could've won.

People need to understand this one simple fact. Wheter the game is 1500-100 or 100-100, once each champ gets to full build and level 18, any champ with 1000 kills is just as strong as a champ with 0. Once your opponent gets full build, each second you're closing the gap in power since their's can't grow any more. One kill late game cripples a team for about a minute, so anything from a simple pick-off to a lucky teamfight is enough to hand your team the win.

AheadatimeJul 13, 20156 votes

{quoted}

People need to understand this one simple fact. Wheter the game is 1500-100 or 100-100, once each champ gets to full build and level 18, any champ with 1000 kills is just as strong as a champ with 0.

Exactly, and to add to this - getting kills isn't the only way to get "fed". I've had situations like this happen all the time; I'm malz vs leblanc mid. Level 3 her jungler comes, they both flash for it, she ignites, I die. 10 minutes later I have a 20 cs lead on her and were evenly matched in items.

Not that you personally don't know this, but it's worth mentioning for those who still obsess over k/d and early lane kills.

RottedApplesJul 13, 20154 votes

yeah and these people even come out in champ select. Had a game which was my last game of promos where someone was like, hey it's this jungler guy from last game who trolled our top laner, he said it wasn't worth ganking, (in my mind this meant the top laner or both of them died a few times and the jungler was making the right call not ganking the lane to not feed more kills to it) so i'm just gonna afk this game. I spoke up and was like, hey you know you could just dodge the game if you want. He was like nah i don't want to lose lp. So i told him he was going to lose MORE lp by just sitting around doing nothing. And he was like, nah cause you guys might still win. So i stressed how impossibly hard it would be to win a 4v5 to him told him to just go to lane and try to just do your stuff, not to worry about anyone else if that helped.

Bottom line i managed to convince him to just play the game. I carried the game pretty well so he didn't really have to do a ton anyway, and the jungler whom he said would "troll" actually made a really good early gank for me to get me going. I wonder what would have happened if i hadn't been able to roam for kills, since i was playing kat into runeglaive ez i could easily kill him but he played incredibly passive so the lane was very even and i did all my work roaming bot and helping our jungler not lose his blue to eve.

If he was willing to "flip the coin" so to speak that early then i do think it is a major problem and people need to realize not only what you said but also that just because someone didn't do well last game doesn't mean they are bad or a troll and they might do ok this game.

AheadatimeJul 13, 20154 votes

I often find myself being the mediator as well, but sometimes it just doesn't work. This is just from personal experience, but the more plat players I come across, the more often this mentality comes about. They seem to be super confident in their judgement calls, as if they can prophesize the game's outcome through a minor event like first drag or a bot lane double kill.

Magical Lil GirlJul 13, 20153 votes

Hmm. to downvote this thread or not.. I'll flip a coin!

LordDarkshaydeJul 13, 201514 votes

Luckily I don't need a coin to decide on downvoting your comment that literally brings nothing to a viable conversation. This person is not raging or flaming they are simply stating that we as a playerbase need to get out of this sort of mentality and try our best to win every game regardless of if we are down early or not.

AheadatimeJul 13, 20155 votes

Thank you

TheVishualJul 13, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I've been getting a recent surge of these players who think league games are a flip of the coin. What I mean is that if we don't steamroll immediately, all hope is lost to them. In their mind, whoever gets a few kills or a drag early is going to win the game, and the only reasonable thing to do now is afk until 20 minutes. They have no understanding that they are a factor in whether we win or lose, and that their actions can single-handedly win us the game.

Had an annie do this recently. She got killed once by TF, and harassed the jungler for it(?). Me and jinx get a double kill, she dies again to enemy jng, and decides its game over, even though she was up in farm and had her ludens complete at this point. Like cmon man. I'm sona. You're annie. Flash in there, tibbers, and let's clean this shit up. So frustrating to have one of our major sources of damage, zone control, and CC just give up as if those 2 deaths of hers gave the enemy team 10,000 gold a piece or something.

Sorry, just venting. But please, if you join ranked, consider yourself an extremely valuable asset to your team and play accordingly. Don't treat ranked like a gamble, like a coin flip. "Either we steam roll or we don't and its game"

Recent? This has been going on since launch... The bigger problem is when people drag out games where you have about a 1% chance of winning. Gamers in korea know when to FF and don't drag out games that are 10-52 thinking "oh we can do it guys if we believe in the heart of the cards". These games are what cause people to rage and have that mentality about the games that are actually close (like if you give up FB at 3 mins, you can still come back).

Ironically when you say it's like a flip of a coin... matchmaking is like a flip of a coin. Ranked is kind of like poker, you can only win at best like 55% of games on average even if you're really good, and that is still a good winrate (with your average player, not someone smurfing in low elo, then the numbers are much more skewed).

AheadatimeJul 13, 20151 votes

Nobody here is talking about playing out a game that is 10-52, as realistically, this can only happen if the opponent is dominating your team so bad that they're toying with you at the fountain. I've had games where we were down 2 players and pulled a win 3v5. I've had games where we came back after being down 10 kills and 2 inhibs. I've also had games where my team took 2 enemy inhibs and baron, then lost a teamfight and they pushed our nexus. I don't surrender in like 90% of games because most of these games are still undecided.

Matchmaking will literally always result in a win for one team and a loss for the other team, that is 100% guaranteed. This isn't what I mean by flip of the coin. I mean that these players take themselves out of the equation altogether, and only look at how their teammates are doing vs their lane opponents. "Well, top has died once, bot is down 2 kills, and our jungler is building devourer and trying to stack. gg man, fuck this". Instead of the "gg fuck this", he should be thinking, "I'm up 2 kills and 20 cs on my opponent. Lemme shove him/kill him, and roam bot for a double so we can drag and take control of river back".

It's not just "my teammates are worse therefore we lose". You are part of your team, and your actions will determine how this game gets played out.

TheVishualJul 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Nobody here is talking about playing out a game that is 10-52, as realistically, this can only happen if the opponent is dominating your team so bad that they're toying with you at the fountain. I've had games where we were down 2 players and pulled a win 3v5. I've had games where we came back after being down 10 kills and 2 inhibs. I've also had games where my team took 2 enemy inhibs and baron, then lost a teamfight and they pushed our nexus. I don't surrender in like 90% of games because most of these games are still undecided.

Matchmaking will literally always result in a win for one team and a loss for the other team, that is 100% guaranteed. This isn't what I mean by flip of the coin. I mean that these players take themselves out of the equation altogether, and only look at how their teammates are doing vs their lane opponents. "Well, top has died once, bot is down 2 kills, and our jungler is building devourer and trying to stack. gg man, fuck this". Instead of the "gg fuck this", he should be thinking, "I'm up 2 kills and 20 cs on my opponent. Lemme shove him/kill him, and roam bot for a double so we can drag and take control of river back".

It's not just "my teammates are worse therefore we lose". You are part of your team, and your actions will determine how this game gets played out.

No I was agreeing with you that this happens, and it's been happening the entire time the game has been out... The reason people feel like that is due to the reason I stated; people drag out painful losing games and it makes people not want to play winnable games. Assuming equal skill, the only way you lose those games where you are crushed and comeback is if the other enemy team rages/throws, which is out of your control and is LUCK (and it's very unlikely that it happens on a consistent basis).

However, most players cannot discern the difference between a winnable game and a lost game so it creates a toxic environment because you force people to play those miserable games, which makes them tilt and then carries over into other matches.

AheadatimeJul 14, 20151 votes

The reason people feel like that is due to the reason I stated; people drag out painful losing games and it makes people not want to play winnable games.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are other reasons people feel this way -

They are in a hurry
Streamers they watch behave this way
Haven't learned to cope with bad teammates, just want to surrender until they get good ones
Negative outlook on life in general (one bad event = ruined my day)
Only find fun in dominating/being overpowered

However, most players cannot discern the difference between a winnable game and a lost game so it creates a toxic environment because you force people to play those miserable games, which makes them tilt and then carries over into other matches.

Not sure if the "you" in the above quote was directed at me or not. If it was, I don't force people to do anything. If it's a lost cause, I surrender. If it's not, I don't. I don't do lame things like duo with somebody and tell them not to surrender either. If I'm duoing, it's with irl friends, who generally are in the "surrender because were down 3 kills" camp, so they vote yes. If that wasn't directed at me, than see my above post. I don't believe that all people ff so easily simply because they had a negative experience with a dragged out game in the past. It could very well be one factor, but there are many factors.

TheVishualJul 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are other reasons people feel this way -

They are in a hurry

Streamers they watch behave this way

Haven't learned to cope with bad teammates, just want to surrender until they get good ones

Negative outlook on life in general (one bad event = ruined my day)

Only find fun in dominating/being overpowered

Not sure if the "you" in the above quote was directed at me or not. If it was, I don't force people to do anything. If it's a lost cause, I surrender. If it's not, I don't. I don't do lame things like duo with somebody and tell them not to surrender either. If I'm duoing, it's with irl friends, who generally are in the "surrender because were down 3 kills" camp, so they vote yes. If that wasn't directed at me, than see my above post. I don't believe that all people ff so easily simply because they had a negative experience with a dragged out game in the past. It could very well be one factor, but there are many factors.

The factors you listed are really kind of a stretch and have nothing to do with the actual "game" but they could MAYBE be a factor. Like I was saying before, we are looking for consistent reasons why people feel this way in relation to the game you are actually playing, not what goes on in RL. In my opinion, there are few things more miserable in LoL than being forced to play a "lost" game when your team won't FF and it definitely can take a toll on your emotions.

You also have to bear in mind that a majority of the community is < 16 and doesn't have the adult emotional reasoning ability to process their anger in games (and you seem more mature so I think that's why you handle it a little differently). I think this is also another reason why a lot of players have a hard time discerning between winnable and lost games; tilt completely skews your ability to think logically and younger players have a harder time dealing with tilt (on top of just being less emotionally mature, no offense it's just how life works). People also tend not to take breaks between games in solo queue and the tilt compounds from the last game (that's why you often see people go "omfg feeders every game wtf" and "everytime i play with x champ they feed" etc etc. even though statistically that's impossible). On top of this, lower elo players also often have a limited understanding on how to play from behind.

This combined with tilt is often why you see people give up FB and then go 0/5 instead of a smarter higher elo player who gives up FB and is 0/1 but then farms and is even-ish CS with his lane... you wanna minimize your losses so your team can carry you if you're behind.

No one has ever done an actual "study" of why people rage in solo queue/quit early with statistical analysis; all we really have is anecdotal evidence. With that being said, what I had stated (and I see it happen very, very often) has been my experience playing this game for over 5 years and having started in Bronze and now being Plat rank + having probably well over 5-6k games played total. Take it with a grain of salt obviously (as you should with anything anyone tells you lol), but that's my opinion based on experience.

You want to win your games with a minimal amount of frustration. In a game where you have a very low chance of winning, sometimes it's better to just give up then bash your head against the wall for 30 mins and maybe eke out a win (more often than not you will just end up getting yourself angry and have that tilt carry over to the next game, which compounds to the next, etc.). This is often why you see people go on huge losing streaks.

I also almost exclusively play solo queue so it's different than when you queue with your friends, definitely.

AheadatimeJul 15, 20151 votes

I can respect your opinion. I definitely agree that if a player had to forcefully endure multiple games that were clearly lost on a very consistent basis, that they could become generally discouraged at the earlier signs of a loss and thus, want to get out of that game. I still stand by my previous examples though, that that are many potential factors that could cause a person to want to quit a game with such a miniscule deficit.

I would like to believe personally that the biggest two reasons would be the person's character irl, as a guy who gives up at the slightest hint of struggle on a rl project could totally behave the same way in league, and the individual being in a hurry. Yeah it's totally subjective with no proof whatsoever, but I've very rarely experienced a 'forced' non-surrender. With the way the surrender vote is cast, the only real way you can force a no vote is by duoing, else you simply have 2 people with a more positive outlook on the game. In that case, none of the three who voted no should be devastated to the point of psychological scarring, else they fall into the previous category of being a general downer irl.

XonraJul 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Nobody here is talking about playing out a game that is 10-52, as realistically, this can only happen if the opponent is dominating your team so bad that they're toying with you at the fountain. I've had games where we were down 2 players and pulled a win 3v5. I've had games where we came back after being down 10 kills and 2 inhibs. I've also had games where my team took 2 enemy inhibs and baron, then lost a teamfight and they pushed our nexus. I don't surrender in like 90% of games because most of these games are still undecided.

Matchmaking will literally always result in a win for one team and a loss for the other team, that is 100% guaranteed. This isn't what I mean by flip of the coin. I mean that these players take themselves out of the equation altogether, and only look at how their teammates are doing vs their lane opponents. "Well, top has died once, bot is down 2 kills, and our jungler is building devourer and trying to stack. gg man, fuck this". Instead of the "gg fuck this", he should be thinking, "I'm up 2 kills and 20 cs on my opponent. Lemme shove him/kill him, and roam bot for a double so we can drag and take control of river back".

It's not just "my teammates are worse therefore we lose". You are part of your team, and your actions will determine how this game gets played out.

While I agree with your point, it just makes me roll my eyes so hard they nearly fall out of the back of my head when people try to use "I won a 3v5 this one time" as an excuse to never surrender, because all it does it make others refuse to surrender regardless of any scenario ever because "I won a 3v5 that one time".

The chances of that happening are so slim that they might as well not be recorded, so that is not really a good excuse to never give up. In, I would say, 99.99999% of games, if you are somehow unlucky enough to get a 3v5....you have no chance. Your team is probably demoralized, at least one person is likely throwing a tantrum, and if the enemy team even pretends to group you aren't doing anything about it unless they are playing with one arm.

You can recall situations till you are blue in the face that you came back from a bad situation, but the reality is, that doesn't happen that often :P Sure, don't give up when the game is actually winnable, but man, don't use winning a 3v5 that one time as an example. That stuff drives me crazy when I see people say that. Likely the factors were all over the place for that win that you aren't sharing as well, but just...please don't try to promote that, because I have enough people refusing to even surrender in a 4v5 with no inhibs, quoting people that say this kind of stuff.

I'd rather have some angry kid give up at 10 minutes and just get the game over with to not team with him, than someone refuse to give up at 45 minutes (with people still somehow not full build on my team and 2 towers down). That is just frustrating as all hell.

AheadatimeJul 13, 20151 votes

Look, obviously you don't play it out if its 3v5, your inhibs are gone, and the other 2 wanna surrender. That's just douchey. My teammates were highly motivated to win, thus we didn't surrender. I wouldn't force my own selfish hopes on others in a dire situation like that. My point was that the mentality of losing a kill or two early = loss doesn't hold up to my own personal experiences, which you seem to agree with.

XonraJul 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Look, obviously you don't play it out if its 3v5, your inhibs are gone, and the other 2 wanna surrender. That's just douchey. My teammates were highly motivated to win, thus we didn't surrender. I wouldn't force my own selfish hopes on others in a dire situation like that. My point was that the mentality of losing a kill or two early = loss doesn't hold up to my own personal experiences, which you seem to agree with.

My point was more, without the context behind a 3v5 win, like maybe the enemy team wasn't playing well, or your champs were already fed, or it was 3 friends blah blah, it comes off a little differently to those that are just looking for an excuse to never surrender under any circumstances.

I have lost track of the times I see people in already lost games that say something along the lines of "people win 4v5s all the time" with no context of why, so they use that as motivation to refuse to ever give up.

It is like the Black Knight from Monty Python And The Holy Grail. Getting his limbs chopped off "it's merely a flesh wound". It is the mentality people have in the game sometimes. I get you want to win because....so do I, but just don't like seeing the "I totally won a 3v5" not because it isn't great you did, but because most people just ignore the context and use it as another excuse to drag out a losing game.

I do get your point, and I probably sounded WAAAAY more aggressive towards you than I meant to, just been seeing it a lot lately, and it drives me bonkers.

Thanks for being cool about your response.

XonraJul 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Recent? This has been going on since launch... The bigger problem is when people drag out games where you have about a 1% chance of winning. Gamers in korea know when to FF and don't drag out games that are 10-52 thinking "oh we can do it guys if we believe in the heart of the cards". These games are what cause people to rage and have that mentality about the games that are actually close (like if you give up FB at 3 mins, you can still come back).

Ironically when you say it's like a flip of a coin... matchmaking is like a flip of a coin. Ranked is kind of like poker, you can only win at best like 55% of games on average even if you're really good, and that is still a good winrate (with your average player, not someone smurfing in low elo, then the numbers are much more skewed).

Hate to say it, but I tend to agree with this.

I appreciate the "don't give up when the game is still winnable" mentality, but some people just don't know the difference, which leads to both sides being terrible.

Some people will quit a game that is winable, but the next they won't win a game that is a zero to 6 towers, 3-0 dragons, 2-0 barons, and the enemy with double your entire teams kills...and still refusing to surrender because "we can still win this guys."

There is a difference between being optimistic and wanting to win and try to come back, and refusing to be realistic when you have no statistical chance given current circumstance, half the team wanting to quit (nothing like just those two people refusing to let the team surrender), and your team comp being terrible late game anyways.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and move to the next game.

DarthSpectrumJul 13, 20153 votes

A kill is only 300 gold at best in most scenarios. That isn't even enough for boots.

Riot has proactively installed more and more anti-snow ball mechanics into League over the seasons. Kills besides first blood bonus don't give full gold until ~4 minutes, towers get extra resistance early game, and plenty of neutral objectives such as Dragons are available to both teams.

Getting killed has more of a psychological than gameplay impact, because really, the gap isn't that large with only one or two kills.

The only time players should surrender is if they feed a late game team fight team as early game champions. Against champions such as Yasuo or Kog'maw, you are expected to beat them and gain an advantage early game. However, they have mechanics in their kits that makes them more powerful as the game progresses. If you losses to them even while they are in their gimped state, you will have no chance of winning even if you drag the game out.

femméJul 13, 20152 votes

heh sounds like korean solo q...but i'm seeing this more also, I think it might just be the summer player base.

LuggJul 13, 20152 votes

People throw games so often, it's crazy to surrender unless the lead is really ridiculous and you are facing multiple late game champs.

A Drowned FishJul 13, 20152 votes

Yeah, this sort of stuff only happens in ranked too. Normals ppl are more relaxed. I think it has something to do with trolls/Harvey Dent's not getting their roles. This is why I can't wait for Ranked Teambuilder.

Bodkins OddsJul 13, 20152 votes

I've been very lucky in solo queue lately. I've only been matched up with people who like to actually finish games even when they're behind. Sadly, I have that one friend who just gives up on the game by his first death, so I have no such luck in premades. It really pisses me off. >_<

AheadatimeJul 14, 20151 votes

Funny, because three out of the six irl friends I play league with have this mentality that I dislike so much. It drives me nuts. One of them is so bad that he'll say "geeze good game" out loud if the enemy gets first blood.

Aboylova92Jul 13, 20152 votes

It really does come down to the attitude of the team a decent amount. Also understanding when your champion is at their strongest. If you're a Vayne and you lost early, it's not that big of a deal. It would obviously be better if you didn't, but you scale annoyingly well into late game. If we're talking about a champion like LB though who manages to do poorly in lane, it might be more of an issue. Not saying the games over, but it's going to be a whole lot harder than before.

AheadatimeJul 14, 20151 votes

For sure. Whenever I get a late-game comp in ranked (malz, vayne, nasus), I am always sure to remind everyone "guys were late game. pls no raging/flaming if we die a couple times early". Most of the time people respond with "^"

WeFlyNoLieJul 13, 20152 votes

This should be a PSA.

It irritates me that in ranked people think the game is over at 12 minutes because mid has two kills and is "fed".

AheadatimeJul 14, 20152 votes

Yeah that word "fed" gets thrown alot when it shouldn't. 1 or 2 kills isn't fed, especially early game. To me, a kill or two on top of a ~30 cs lead would be fed. Honestly when I hit tab early and mid game, I'm looking at cs instead of k/d. Yeah, every now and then I cry when I see a 7/0 enemy lucian or something, but realistically, you should be checking to see which lanes are doing better/worse than their enemy laners regarding cs.

WeFlyNoLieJul 14, 20151 votes

People that actually take the time to cs rather than chase kills usually come out ahead. You're absolutely right.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPEJul 13, 20152 votes

people just give up way too easily, I once had a game where we went 2vs.22 and still end up winning because of a huge comeback

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20152 votes

but league IS a flip of the coin.... with matchmaking everyone wins 50%

AheadatimeJul 14, 20151 votes

I posted this in response to someone else, but it's relevant here.

Matchmaking will literally always result in a win for one team and a loss for the other team, that is 100% guaranteed. This isn't what I mean by flip of the coin. I mean that these players take themselves out of the equation altogether, and only look at how their teammates are doing vs their lane opponents.

In other words "the rest of my team seems to be off to a poor start compared to their enemy counterparts, thus this game is lost". As if the "coin flip" is solely based on how your teammates do and not how you perform. This is the big point I want to drive home. You can change the outcome of the game by playing very well and having a positive attitude. You are a part of that coin flip.

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20152 votes

how you perform is completely irrelevant in the long run.

in a matchmaking system you Will lose half your games no matter how well you play. yes if you play a good game you can win that one. but the result is your mmr goes up and you will lose in the future because of it. each game is 50/50. it actually is a coin flip.

that means if you win you are setting yourself up for a future loss. if you lose you get a win later. that is what I really want to drive home. when you win, you lose. how else are they going to keep you at 50%?

AheadatimeJul 14, 20152 votes

Try going afk or feeding intentionally for 100 games straight and tell me if you're at a 50% ratio after that. Once you notice you're way below 50%, come back and tell me again about how your performance didn't effect your W/L ratio.

The reason nobody has a 100% W/L ratio is because they get outplayed. Sure, we all love to rage about feeders, afkers, or bought accounts, but the reality is that usually, we encounter players who are better than us, or at least who played better in that particular game. I would be willing to bet that very few people are actually at a 50% W/L. Most people are above or below this mark, which generally is indicative of their skill level relative to their elo.

Players who are better than their elo will have a higher W/L and continue to climb. Players who bought their account will have a horrible W/L and fall. Players who are about right where they belong (like myself) will hover around 50%. Why do you think high level diamond/challenger players can smurf newer accounts to diamond without issue? You think they just get 'lucky coin flips' until they hit diamond?

And your logic regarding winning = losing and vice versa is confused. The reason you will lose eventually after winning isn't based on the fact that you won, it's based on the players you get paired with. Eventually, everybody will get paired against somebody better than them, or at least a team that gels better than their team. Going on a 10 game win streak doesn't mean you're overdue for a 10 game losing streak, and vice versa. It just means you're now on a path to getting in the 'correct' elo for your skill level, wherein you're more likely to have a balanced W/L.

The annie in my example game didn't side with either you nor I. She was simply in a defeatist state of mind after being killed twice. It had nothing to do with her past or future wins or losses. It was the direct result of her state of mind, which is the entire point of this thread.

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20151 votes

you are very wrong about this. you should study how matchmaking works.

everyone hovers around 50%. riot is very good at keeping players there. lets look at the players who have posted on this thread.

aheadatime - 51.8% lorddarkshyade - 48.8% wynillo - 51.5% xonra - 47.9% lost little girl - 50.5% darthspectrum - 53.3% weflynolie - 50.0% thevishual - 50.3%

I could go on and on. every single person who posted in this thread who has more than 50 games played is at near 50%. this is not a coincidence or a fluke. everyone in the world (except maybe the top 1%) will lose 50% of their games no matter how well they play. it doesnt matter. that is matchmaking.

that means each game is exactly a coin toss. for every win you get, you will have to take a loss. going on a 10 game winstreak does mean you are due for a 10 game losing streak. there is no other way to explain how everyone is at 50%. if they could go on a 10 game winstreak and then another 10 game winstreak they wouldn't be 50%.

prove it to yourself. look up anyone you want on lolking.com. if they aren't in the top 1% of all players or bottom 1% and they have at least 100 games played then they are 50% winrate.

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20151 votes

p.s. I looked up your annie with the defeatist attitude. his name is 'murder ur famliy' and he is 331W 335L = 49.7%

guess his attitude isn't hurting him much. he still gets to win half just like everyone else.

AheadatimeJul 14, 20152 votes

Yes as I said in my response, people who generally are at where they belong elo-wise hover around 50%. People who improve their play and learn new, stronger champs that fit their playstyle temporarily boost their W/L until they've climbed to a higher spot. People who go on tilt, have internet issues, or rage and bring others down generally have lower than 50% until they fall to where they belong. Notice that you found that I have a 52% win rate while Annie has just below a 50% win rate. That could very well be the result of me still being in the process to climibing to low plat and Annie's shit attitude preventing her from climbing any more.

I understand that matchmaking consists of two team, and one team will lose while the other wins every game statistically. In this sense, it is very much a coin flip. But you still seem to be missing my point. The coin flip doesn't exclude you. If you have good mechanics, a wide champion pool, counter-pick your opponents, out-play them, roam for kills/objectives, ward thoroughly, and be friendly in-game, you increase your W/L over a temporary period of time until you reach a higher ELO. This is my point. You don't just join your unranked placement matches and think "well here goes nothing, hope I get some wins so I can be diamond!!". Again, stronger players consistently have higher W/L ratios until they reach those higher tiers like diamond, and it's not a coin flip. Bronze players consistently lose until they're at bronze, again.. not a coin flip. You are always a deciding factor in the games you play, despite the randomness of your teammates/enemies skill levels.

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20151 votes

that is true if you are climbing you will temporarily win more than 50% but it only takes like 4 games to climb 100 MMR. the greater winrate is Very brief.

smurfs might jump out to 20 games above 50% at the start, but the system reacts and then they climb not because they win more than 50% but because they gain a lot more LP for wins than losses since it knows where they really belong.

100 MMR is a pretty big improvement. if you improve that much, you might get 4 wins you don't have to give back. but once matchmaking gets you to where you belong you will win 50% and its a coinflip from then on.

AheadatimeJul 15, 20151 votes

Now were just arguing semantics. Most people don't climb 100MR in 4 games. Fresh accounts created by diamond players, sure. For me personally, I'm getting around 18LP per win, which would mean 6 wins plus promos to move up a division. In any case, you seem to agree with my point so there's not much else to discuss.

XonraJul 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=2ExwPGm7,comment-id=001b00000000,timestamp=2015-07-14T06:10:28.447+0000)

how you perform is completely irrelevant in the long run.

in a matchmaking system you Will lose half your games no matter how well you play. yes if you play a good game you can win that one. but the result is your mmr goes up and you will lose in the future because of it. each game is 50/50. it actually is a coin flip.

that means if you win you are setting yourself up for a future loss. if you lose you get a win later. that is what I really want to drive home. when you win, you lose. how else are they going to keep you at 50%?

This is a rather depressing outlook, I gotta say.

If this is your opinion, then why play at all (in ranked)? You will never accomplish anything, at least if this is what you believe to be true.

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20151 votes

its not my opinion. this is fact. that is exactly how matchmaking works. it is depressing - when you win you have to know in the back of your mind you have to pay for that later with a loss.

and that is why you cant play for wins and losses. you are going to win half no matter what you do. you have to play for fun.

XonraJul 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=2ExwPGm7,comment-id=001b0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-07-14T20:57:04.170+0000)

its not my opinion. this is fact. that is exactly how matchmaking works. it is depressing - when you win you have to know in the back of your mind you have to pay for that later with a loss.

and that is why you cant play for wins and losses. you are going to win half no matter what you do. you have to play for fun.

Sure one team wins and one team loses, but trying to look at that as it being 50/50 is completely false.

If I have a boxing match with my cat, just because one of us has to win and one of us has to lose, does not mean I only have a 50% chance of beating my cat.

The people in matches are NOT always equal, despite matchmaking trying to make it so.

You could have a team of silvers that should be gold and are on the rise, and you could have the enemy team all be golds that should be bronze, and were carried, and on the downfall.

Realistically, 50% isn't true, because there are so many more factors aside from "two teams, 5 people, one team has to win". You are ignoring so many more factors.

If you false fact were true, then no one would get past bronze or everyone would be in challenger, there would be no LCS, and everyone would have exactly a 50% win rate.

What's that, that isn't the case you say in a snarky voice? Yeah of course not.

EL HAMSTEROJul 14, 20151 votes

*sigh

everyone does have a 50% winrate. yes there are slight variations. people can go on little winning or losing streaks but the more games they play, the closer to 50% they become.

a fight with your cat is not matchmaking. matchmaking would never let that fight happen. the top 1% of players are an exception because matchmaking doesn't have anyone above them to pair them up with. the bottom 1% are the same.

you clearly don't understand matchmaking. 50% is not a guess or made up. it is the truth of matchmaking. it is a Law of matchmaking. the way the system works allows nothing else.

lolking.net - check anyone you want who isn't in the top 1% or bottom 1%. if they have played enough games then they are at 50%.

TheVishualJul 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=EL HAMSTERO,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=2ExwPGm7,comment-id=001b000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-14T23:16:30.780+0000)

*sigh

everyone does have a 50% winrate. yes there are slight variations. people can go on little winning or losing streaks but the more games they play, the closer to 50% they become.

a fight with your cat is not matchmaking. matchmaking would never let that fight happen. the top 1% of players are an exception because matchmaking doesn't have anyone above them to pair them up with. the bottom 1% are the same.

you clearly don't understand matchmaking. 50% is not a guess or made up. it is the truth of matchmaking. it is a Law of matchmaking. the way the system works allows nothing else.

lolking.net - check anyone you want who isn't in the top 1% or bottom 1%. if they have played enough games then they are at 50%.

The system will put you at 50% when you reach a skill cap, but you are implying it's impossible to get better and raise your winrate over 50% and climb ELO. That's simply not true; I'm living proof and do it every season lol.

What is true however is that if you don't place at your true elo right away (which happens very often because placement matches have such high value and solo queue randomness can sometimes mess up those 10 games) you will have to grind out many more games to get to your current "true" elo, even if you are better than the people you are playing against.

RandomoniumJul 14, 20151 votes

The real reason why people get crushed once they give up a kill or two is they never bother to learn how to play when they are behind. They assume a 2 kill lead means its gg because they don't adjust their play style and blinding keep trying to 1v1 someone with a dominant gold lead.

Winning when you're behind is possible but it requires patience. Instead of going for risky plays that could cause the enemy team to snowball you should focus on farming and punishing enemies when they make mistakes and overcommit. The longer you drag out the game the less significant their gold lead becomes and the more opportunities you will have to capitalize on their mistakes.

Just played a game yesterday where our top laner couldn't connect for over 20 minutes. Instead of just saying it was hopeless and surrendering we stayed calm and patient and ended up winning after 50 minutes.