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Pyke feels like one of the most balanced assassins in the history of ever, so why not learn from him

NA Darklarik··27 votes·8,834 views

Both when playing as and against him, i just cant help but feel "damn he is balanced". At no point do i think him weak, nor ludicrously strong. All his abilities have counterplay and ability to dodge them. Nothing feels "Point - click - delete" or "Stealth - click - Delete". And his abilities have long cooldowns so if you miss one, your liable to not be able to properly assassinate your target, which creates the necesity to work with teammates, as he even has solo-death related quotes "Easier with a crew".

Even his stealth is telegraphed by sharks. His Q has a large wind up. His E is dodgable. Even his ult needs to be aimed, has a smaller than it looks AOE, and gives some time to use either a dash or flash away. Most importantly, He is always squishy, meaning he can never really brute force his way into a fight like some assassins have done so historically (Khazix Akali Diana MonkeyKing Zed )

Now my question is, while i understand some more dedicated non-support assassins should still be able to pick lone squishy priority targets by themselves, in relation to his Long Cooldowns (and thus importance of landing everything, unlike some assassins who burst you down with only half their kit or ultimate alone), and his Cant-become-tanky passive.

Imagine if all assassins had this, most importantly the inability to build extra health. Thats something i would like to see balanced around.

87 Comments

Frontline Fury8 votes

But he’s not. Pyke is ludicrously unbalanced stat-wise - the amount of practice and skill you need to succeed with him compared to both other supports and other assassins is extremely low.

In a month he’s stat checked his way into the top 3 supports slot, outmatching supports players have YEARS of experience on.

Baron Barian7 votes

He's not a real assassin.

NA Darklarik14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-12T02:38:50.891+0000)

He's not a real assassin.

Im already mAstery lv 6 with him, as someone who plays a lot of Kayn, rengar, and Nocturne, i can definitely say he is most definitely an assassin

ModWulf Helhammer23 votes

Most assassins don't come with a bunch of CC.

If you tried to make an actual solo lane assassin with the kind of kit Pyke has, they would be horribly unbalanced.

CaptainAntiHeroz6 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T02:47:08.340+0000)

Most assassins don't come with a bunch of CC.

If you tried to make an actual solo lane assassin with the kind of kit Pyke has, they would be horribly unbalanced.

Hes recommended to buy item 3147 anditem 3026 ... Call him a Support if you want I call him the Assassin that can kill steal you and say "I'm pyke I'm helping"and go bot lane without being called a troll pick

ModWulf Helhammer6 votes

Does he have assassin qualities and playstyle?

Yes.

Is he a true assassin? No.

If Riot had not specifically intended him to be a support, and created his kit for that specific purpose, he would likely not be looked open as favorably by the community.

CaptainAntiHeroz8 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T02:58:35.274+0000)

Does he have assassin qualities and playstyle?

Yes.

Is he a true assassin? No.

If Riot had not specifically intended him to be a support, and created his kit for that specific purpose, he would likely not be looked open as favorably by the community.

ExplainLux support andZyra then [sg-ezreal]

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

Not exactly sure what your point is.

CaptainAntiHeroz6 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T03:12:01.220+0000)

Not exactly sure what your point is.

Lux is a mid laner that doesn't come up in the support collection even after all this time that shes been played as one

Used to be you could go to the store and click support and gangplank would come up

My point is If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, sounds like a duck, you can call it whatever but it's still a duck, same with Pyke

2Charmnot2Charm4 votes

Lux is a mid laner that doesn't come up in the support collection even after all this time that shes been played as one

Because she is a trash support that only works in bronze-gold elo.

Unlike brand, vel koz, and zyra her mana costs are too high to keep poking the enemy duo lane non stop, her zone potential is no where near the likes of the 3 I mentioned and they don't require too many items to be threats to the enemy team.

Lux support is a meme support and anyone that's plat+ would be saving themselves the trouble by dodging whenever their support picks her.

CaptainAntiHeroz3 votes

{quoted}

Because she is a trash support that only works in bronze-gold elo.

Unlike brand, vel koz, and zyra her mana costs are too high to keep poking the enemy duo lane non stop, her zone potential is no where near the likes of the 3 I mentioned and they don't require too many items to be threats to the enemy team.

Lux support is a meme support and anyone that's plat+ would be saving themselves the trouble by dodging whenever their support picks her.

Zilean still shows up as a Support and that whole champion is a meme unless you one trick him. AND ZYRA DOESN'T SHOW UP EITHER sooooo your counter argument is invalid, would you like to try again?

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Tbf we don't credit the client's role assignments to be accurate whatsoever. They still have yet to update it to their new classes and subclasses they declared awhile ago.

In their new classes, support just doesn't exist. They have something close to it: Controllers, being Enchanters and Catchers.

Zyra shows up under Catchers and Zilean under "Unique Playstyles" though I'd definitely pin him as an Enchanter (MS increase, rez, stun and a heavy slow for the "Controller" aspect).

But neither sub-classification just defines those in their sub-class as "supports". Support simply doesn't exist as a class in Riot's new definitions.

SithesisLord1 votes

Zilean under "Unique Playstyles" though I'd definitely pin him as an Enchanter.

He also has an XP giver and a on-demand CD reset, two things no other Enchanter has. Or a Catcher for that matter. He is much more a Specialist than he is an Enchanter.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

The on-demand CD reset is more akin to just being a "stun" and either "enemy slow" or "ally/self speed up" since that's what it's used for.

The XP giving is definitely something you'd think an Enchanter would do. Just because noone else does it doesn't make him a Unique Playstyle. There's several Enchanters who can do something no other Enchanter can that aren't Unique Playstyle classifications.

When it comes down to it, he falls right into these definitions:

"Controllers are defensive casters that oversee the battlefield by protecting and opening up opportunities for their allies."

"Enchanters focus on amplifying their allies’ effectiveness by directly augmenting them and defending them from incoming threats. Enchanters themselves are often quite fragile and bring relatively low damage to the table, meaning they really only shine when grouped together with others."

Note that this is a generalization and not every Enchanter deals no damage

If anything, he's definitely a Controller.

Crescent Dusk4 votes

Only works in bronze-gold. Right. Somebody has neglected watching Yozu streams, rank 1 NA Lux who's done just fine in challenger as both lux mid and supp.

iDarkWind1 votes

Lux isn't played as Support at all. Just because it is popular in low ranks, it doesn't make it viable or even good.

Her Shield is a Skillshot, her Snare is hard to hit, her only poke tool is her E wich costs a lot of mana, and the items her core items for damage, wich are item 3285 item 3089 are extremly expensive for someone that is a support.

That's why Brand Zyra are way better supports than she will ever be, their base damages are higher, they scale much better with cheaper items item 3151 item 3116 item 3135 and do much more AoE damage.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

Lux isn't played as Support at all. Just because it is popular in low ranks, it doesn't make it viable or even good.

Her Shield is a Skillshot, her Snare is hard to hit, her only poke tool is her E wich costs a lot of mana, and the items her core items for damage, wich are item 3285 item 3089 are extremly expensive for someone that is a support.

That's why Brand Zyra are way better supports than she will ever be, their base damages are higher, they scale much better with cheaper items item 3151 item 3116 item 3135 and do much more AoE damage.

Brand is a horribly unbalanced champion and if you prefer him as a support im so glad you have 0 concern for "if your carry would like kills because you need your burst damage" And if you think lux binding is a hard skill shot when it even forgives creep block, then I'm sorry continue with your point and click 0 skill nonsense If "being a skill expressive champion" is your issue that explains a lot [sg-soraka]

iDarkWind1 votes

Him being unbalanced in your opinion changes nothing of what I said. Also, I didn't understand half of what you said to be honest. Yes, Lux Binding isn't one of the hardest skillshots, but it being blocked by minions makes it a lot harder to land in the laning phase, hell even those you land may not be a good time for engage.

"being a skill expressive champion", what are you talking about? What I said isn't just an opinion, it's a fact either you like it or not.

aaaustindestroy11 votes

I mean if Pyke kills the enemy with his ult, his allies get full kill gold ...

Revoke3 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T02:47:08.340+0000)

Most assassins don't come with a bunch of CC.

If you tried to make an actual solo lane assassin with the kind of kit Pyke has, they would be horribly unbalanced.

Talon has slow, LB has root, Kassadin has slow, fizz has knock aside, Shaco has fear and slow, rengar has slow and root, Ekko has slow and stun, Kha has slow, nocturne has is fear. Only Kat and Akali are ones without a CC.

ModWulf Helhammer9 votes

Pyke has a stun and a pull.

The only other assassin with a stun has a much higher difficulty in actually landing it, and we've seen what happened when he was strong (both regular and tank Ekko were balance nightmares)

Revoke5 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-12T03:13:25.728+0000)

Pyke has a stun and a pull.

The only other assassin with a stun has a much higher difficulty in actually landing it, and we've seen what happened when he was strong (both regular and tank Ekko were balance nightmares)

Assassin don't really need that much CC, they just need one to lock down their target so they can 100-0. Talon would be so much weaker if his rake didn't slow.

ModWulf Helhammer10 votes

That's exactly my point

Pyke was made to be a support, and that's why they were able to load him up with more utility in exchange for less damage.

You can't do that with a true solo lane assassin.

IcyPepper4 votes

I don't think OP is suggesting we give assassins lots of CC. That'd be a nightmare! D: Rather, I don't think OP mentioned Pyke's crowd control at all.

Hahahahyena1 votes

OP is most certainly not suggesting anything like that, people just go on a tangent so that assassins would be more healthy rather than "if assassin can 1 click = 1 kill then theyre balanced, if they cant theyre bad"

CaptainAntiHeroz2 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T03:18:25.085+0000)

That's exactly my point

Pyke was made to be a support, and that's why they were able to load him up with more utility in exchange for less damage.

You can't do that with a true solo lane assassin.

Bet I got my first s- on Zed playing font of life support Zed Now whatcha gonna say? "But Zed was never meant to be a Support" well pyke wasnt made to be a jungler or top laner but guess where he can also be found in champ select ?

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

I got my first s- on Zed playing font of life support Zed

Way the ranking system works, you're being compared to other support Zeds. And while the cheese players may have a high peak, his overall average stats are probably bad. So getting a high ranking on support Zed isn't as noteworthy as in a strong position.

CaptainAntiHeroz3 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-12T03:13:25.728+0000)

Pyke has a stun and a pull.

The only other assassin with a stun has a much higher difficulty in actually landing it, and we've seen what happened when he was strong (both regular and tank Ekko were balance nightmares)

Have you ever played Pyke? Or did you just watch a few montages? Because Pykes stun can be really hard to land

Z3Sleeper4 votes

Super conditional stun and a short distance pull that doesn't CC after the pull like all other pulls.

Terozu1 votes

Its the longest and fastest pull in the game and sets the enemy behind him rather than in front.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

{quoted}

Its the longest

It's the same range as Thresh and Nautilus.

Also, to get that range it takes a minimum of 1 second for the charge time to reach that range, whilst Thresh has a 0.5 second delay and Nautilus has no delay.

And technically, Urgot has the longest range pull.

Terozu1 votes

Neither Thresh or Natilus' pulls pull them the full distance. Therefore Pyke's is the longest actual pull.

And Urgot doesnt count... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

aaaustindestroy11 votes

Pyke’s doesn’t either. It pulls them a good distance but it brings them just close enough for him to E to them for his stun combo. Also, for his Q to bring the enemy behind him, they have to be right up on him.

Terozu1 votes

Pykes puts them behind him...

Hahahahyena2 votes

that is if youre in melee range look at the singed, he isnt pulled behind pyke the first time but only until hes in melee range he is pulled behind him

Z3Sleeper2 votes

No it doesn't, it pulls them 550 units regardless of how far they are from Pyke. If 550 units is more than the distance between Pyke and the target, the target will go past Pyke to complete the 550 unit travel.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Oh you meant actual pull distance? Then:

Pyke: 550 Naut: 550 Blitz: 825

Therefore, Naut and Pyke are tied and Blitz is the longest range pull.

Dracocrash1 votes

it still hits them with a 90% slow for 1s after being hit which is better than the 0.1s stun that comes with blitz pull arguably.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Blitz pull stun is actually 0.5 seconds. It also pulls them 275 units further at max range.

Though at close range, I guess Pyke technically pulls them further (550 no matter what).

Dracocrash2 votes

slows simply aren't on the same level as hard crowd control, do not compare them. Fizz and wukong only have CC on their ultimate. Zed , akali , kat ,kha'zix and talon all lack hard cc. Rengar can only ROOT (not stun or pull) a target if he has full ferocity, and has to give up on empowered Q burst to use that CC. Ekko and shaco's hard CC is simply unreliable, and easy to avoid. Leblanc's Root is delayed and can be avoided since it is a) a skillshot and b) can be walked out of.

Very few assassins have truly reliable CC, and it is rare to find it outside their ultimates.

Pyke on the other hand has a pull and a AOE stun, Although they are a little unreliable in their own way, its simply on another level compared to the base kit of other assasins

Revoke2 votes

{quoted}

slows simply aren't on the same level as hard crowd control, do not compare them. Fizz and wukong only have CC on their ultimate. Zed , akali , kat ,kha'zix and talon all lack hard cc. Rengar can only ROOT (not stun or pull) a target if he has full ferocity, and has to give up on empowered Q burst to use that CC. Ekko and shaco's hard CC is simply unreliable, and easy to avoid. Leblanc's Root is delayed and can be avoided since it is a) a skillshot and b) can be walked out of.

Very few assassins have truly reliable CC, and it is rare to find it outside their ultimates.

Pyke on the other hand has a pull and a AOE stun, Although they are a little unreliable in their own way, its simply on another level compared to the base kit of other assasins

You got to be kidding me when you think slows aren't effective. You're saying how assassin has like LB skillshot is delayed is a skillshot when both pyke's pull and stun are the same thing. You can sidestep both his Q and E.

IcyPepper4 votes

I think OP's point is that Pyke isn't like most assassins ;)

but he is very much so still an assassin

Cunky1 votes

[{quoted}](name=NA Darklarik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-12T02:41:16.529+0000)

Im already mAstery lv 6 with him, as someone who plays a lot of Kayn, rengar, and Nocturne, i can definitely say he is most definitely an assassin

only mastery 6? what a big nerd https://i.gyazo.com/97222f2c5ff97796a07ed8109f69c8d0.png https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/872995033567332105/07970228DABCC6A7DC23A15FA3DF7F3D7B2C0602/

CaptainAntiHeroz11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xkZzLMG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-12T02:38:50.891+0000)

He's not a real assassin.

Your right, unlike typical assassin's he has clear weaknesses

Glîtchy2 votes

{quoted}

Your right, unlike typical assassin's he has clear weaknesses

Eye Of Terror4 votes

{quoted}

Your right, unlike typical assassin's he has clear weaknesses

This.

Śhunpo2 votes

{quoted}

Your right, unlike typical assassin's he has clear weaknesses

Typical assassins do have clear weaknesses omegaLUL

CaptainAntiHeroz2 votes

{quoted}

Typical assassins do have clear weaknesses omegaLUL

I'm listening

Śhunpo2 votes

{quoted}

I'm listening

Learn how to position, how to peel for your squishies, how to build defensively when you're clearly behind, how to keep up in farm without dying, how to ward properly and how to deathball properly.

Assassins are awful in standard 5v5 fights, and fights where things are at least semi-even. They punish mistakes harder than any other class, so learn to make less mistakes. I know that sounds harsh, but that's how assassins work. Think of them as champions to train you into playing properly every single game, since the punishment for making mistakes against them is generally death; which is an obvious sign that you made mistakes. The moment you learn how to counterplay assassins through smart macro play you'll become an exponentially greater player.

CaptainAntiHeroz2 votes

{quoted}

Learn how to position, how to peel for your squishies, how to build defensively when you're clearly behind, how to keep up in farm without dying, how to ward properly and how to deathball properly.

Assassins are awful in standard 5v5 fights, and fights where things are at least semi-even. They punish mistakes harder than any other class, so learn to make less mistakes. I know that sounds harsh, but that's how assassins work. Think of them as champions to train you into playing properly every single game, since the punishment for making mistakes against them is generally death; which is an obvious sign that you made mistakes. The moment you learn how to counterplay assassins through smart macro play you'll become an exponentially greater player.

You can ward all you want against ap assassin's but then there's item 3147 and playingSoraka the only good position to counter assassin's is "under tower" which eliminates the 5v5 problem when you have to give 10% Max hp in a burst meta where evenitem 3110 can only negate so much [sg-janna]

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