Courage of the Colossus "abuse" is merely the symptome of a bigger issue.

Oglaf·Nov 20, 2016·48 votes·3,322 views

And that is how ridiculous damage itemization really is.

The problem with CoTC currently is that you can go full Resolve and still output great damage because of damage items being more powerful than tank items in the end.

Were it so that going full Resolve actually meant having to give up a lot of damage for it, we would not see CoTC being a problem. But thanks to damage itemization, it is not.

At least, that's how I see it. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

86 Comments

Done25Nov 20, 201612 votes

I have to agree. It's too good on high damage dive fighters. CotC is simply BETTER than Warlord or Fevor for Irelia, Hecarim, Udyr, Darius, and other such fighters/juggernauts. Though one might argue that Warlords and Fevor are simply too weak to compete.

l Dárius lNov 20, 20162 votes

Courage of the Colossus is not reliable on Darius and I bring new fervor grasp or stormraiders

LordSirChipmunkNov 20, 20165 votes

I don't think that Fervor of Battle is _that _ weak... I think it does a lot on Fiora, my top lane pick of choice.

ForFoxSakesNov 21, 20161 votes

Hecarim and darius never used fervor to begin with

Done25Nov 21, 20161 votes

That's because it gave on hit instead of raw AD like it does now.

ForFoxSakesNov 21, 20161 votes

Even if CoC was removed those two wouldnt be taking Fervor. They arent AA based champs

OglafNov 20, 20166 votes

"True" tanks are Champions like Braum or Alistar . These Champions have become a lot tankier, but they are far from overpowered. Allistar isn't going to be soloing anyone any time soon.

As I said, the problem is with bruiser-type Champions who can take CoTC while building damage items.

PennsNov 20, 20164 votes

Heca and Vi are like the only examples, Nautilus Amumu Rammus Zac Sejuani and so on or some supports build full tank and are still op with it.

OglafNov 20, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Heca and Vi are like the only examples, and so on or some supports build full tank and are still op with it.

No they are not, haha. Apart from Rammus , no-one is able to force you to hit them.

[{quoted}](name=bad arcade kitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1lnJrTRV,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-20T14:35:14.195+0000)

that is not even funny, you imply that tanks should be even more tanker than they are now or what

Not really. What I'm sorta thinking is that Riot could

Tone down damage items (don't downvote me just yet!)
Buff Ferocity masteries.

This would mean that if you are going full-Resolve masteries, you will not be able to do as much damage as before - and if you do invest in the Ferocity tree you are properly rewarded for doing so.

Basically, more focus on masteries and less on items.

PennsNov 20, 20164 votes

Yeah the Zac jumping in on your carries with dumb base damages from 2000 units away or the Seju charging in and stunning everyone with aoe %hp damage arent a threat, just ignore them and keep hitting their carries lel. The problem isnt just champs like Heca that abuse it, its items that give tank stats + damage and base damage on tanks in general.

OglafNov 20, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Yeah the Zac jumping in on your carries with dumb base damages from 2000 units away or the Seju charging in and stunning everyone with aoe %hp damage arent a threat, just ignore them and keep hitting their carries lel. The problem isnt just champs like Heca that abuse it, its items that give tank stats + damage and base damage on tanks in general.

Do you even LoL, bro?

Once Sejuani and Zac have "blown their load" so to speak, yes they are relatively harmless in contrast to the ADC who's critting everyone to death. That is of course unless they are building for damage in which case you can't call them tanks anymore; a Zac who's built around doing as much damage per slingshot (as is a popular build for him) is not a tank.

This is LoL 101, you should know this.

PennsNov 20, 20168 votes

If you ignore the Zac or Seju inside your team they will just either kill or disrupt your carries hard lol. You pretty much have to kite back and kill the tanks first, which is what this mastery prevents a "bit" too well.

RalanrNov 20, 20166 votes

There's a thing called "peel" that people should be doing.

PennsNov 20, 20167 votes

Which basically means "helping your team kite back and kill the tanks first".. So yeah.

RalanrNov 20, 20165 votes

If tanks aren't s threat then you don't really have a reason to deal with them.

PennsNov 20, 20163 votes

Its fine if I have to kite and deal with them but they shouldnt get a 1k+ shield for jumping into my backline.

But imo tanks being a damage threat shouldnt be a thing at all. Why cant they just be a threat with cc and stuff instead of easily 1v1ing carries before late game?

RalanrNov 20, 20163 votes

I agree that the mastery is overtunned and should be nerfed.

They aren't exactly a damage threat to anything that isn't squishy. This is meant to encourage tankier teammates to peel for their carries.

AKA: be a frontline.

PennsNov 20, 20162 votes

Yeah but assassins arent either. I just think its fking ridiculous how a item 1401 item 3075 Malph that isnt even fed bursts me without me being able to do anything as adc mid game.

RalanrNov 20, 20162 votes

Honestly Malphite is just stupid IMO.

RalanrNov 20, 20162 votes

Again. Malphite is kinda stupid.

OglafNov 20, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Im in a game rn with Trist, farmed well, won lane, finished and built a third item. You know whats happening? I crit the 2 armor items + armor boots Malph for around 150 while his Thornmail does more than that. Thats why I can only laugh about people saying tanks are too weak and Last Whisper is op lol

Just build Lifesteal as it hard-counters Thornmail.

No ADC with a brain, or half a brain, should really die to because as an ADC you should have Lifesteal regardless if someone builds Thornmail or not - and that is why it is by far the worst armour item unless you are playing Rammus (but he doesn't really use it for protection, but as fuel for his armour-to-AD passive conversion).

This is not tanks being OP, it is you being a nitwit.

Champion SkinNov 20, 20164 votes

Seems like an exaggeration as malphite would need around 557 armor (454 bonus armor) to reduce a Tristana IE crit with item 3036 down to around 150 damage (though it is possible when accounting for item 3047 reducing AA damage and possibly item 3143 ?)

item 3036 item 3031 = 140 AD Tristana level 12? = 80 AD runes/masteries? = 15 AD Total = 235 AD

Damage before armor 235 X 2.5 X 1.15 = 675 damage

675 X Armor damage multiplier = 150 Armor = 0.222 (78.8% damage reduction)

Malphite would need 454 bonus armor (reduced to 250 by item 3036 ) and with malphite having around 103 base armor at level 14 for a total of 353 which gives around 78% damage reduction from physical damage

Attticus FinchNov 20, 20164 votes

If you're trying to kill the tanks first then you're playing this game wrong.

PennsNov 20, 20166 votes

Ok next time Ill tell my adc and support to ignore the tanks, run straight past them and attack the enemy carries. Lets see how that works out lol

SpoofghoulNov 21, 20161 votes

But really he is right though You should not kill tanks first . . .

They are not priority targets the whole point of building tank is to become an annoyance to your enemies because it's a waste of time to focus you but your aoe base damage and cc will still be disruptive so they kind of have to deal with you.

Ideally you kill one of the enemy carries first then you can take your time with the tanks

But the tank's job is to simply not give you that time by disrupting your advance peeling fro their carries or zoning yours out

if the tank does this right and his allies use this to their advantage he wins the team fight

Which promptly causes bitching on the boards about tanks being too tanky but they really are not

i mean you pointed that out yourself by saying focus the tank, and people are backing you up on it, focusing the tank used to be a wood 9,5 Yolodongers retards division tactic The fact that it is now an acceptable thing to do means tanks are way to squishy

It takes a while for the tank to actually kill you so he is not really a solo threat. Though his basedamage will hurt if you buy 0 defense which it should. Imagine building 6 offense items and dealing 0 damage makes no sense right so having 0 defense keeps you vulnerable to everyone's damage period somehow people can't accept this its really banal and retarded

xelakerNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There's a thing called "peel" that people should be doing.

let me just peel Hecarim ...oh he ult'd, oh my carry is dead, oh he got away and we blew all our cc trying to stop him. gg teamfight

RalanrNov 21, 20161 votes

Peel harder.

Karn BishopNov 20, 20163 votes

I like your points in general op however your probably not very familiar with sejuanni because her cool downs are only a real factor early game and basically non existent once she builds a single cd item after level 7-8, she is one of the defacto windup tank champions that have a hard time starting but absolutely destroy if they are not stopped or interfered with which is hard to do now with how much safer her early clears can be.

PermabannedGarenNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you even LoL, bro?

Once Sejuani and Zac have "blown their load" so to speak, yes they are relatively harmless in contrast to the ADC who's critting everyone to death. That is of course unless they are building for damage in which case you can't call them tanks anymore; a Zac who's built around doing as much damage per slingshot (as is a popular build for him) is not a tank.

This is LoL 101, you should know this.

It's like people think the game starts with everyone on the team six slotted.

Asayake 5150glowNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"True" tanks are Champions like or . These Champions have become a lot tankier, but they are far from overpowered. Allistar isn't going to be soloing anyone any time soon.

As I said, the problem is with bruiser-type Champions who can take CoTC while building damage items.

Alistar solo's me top every time hes picked top against me... ;(

PermabannedGarenNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"True" tanks are Champions like or . These Champions have become a lot tankier, but they are far from overpowered. Allistar isn't going to be soloing anyone any time soon.

As I said, the problem is with bruiser-type Champions who can take CoTC while building damage items.

Those champions are also supports, LOL.

PennsNov 20, 20163 votes

The bigger issue is tanks being broken lel. Why would you play other champs when you can literally outtrade a Kat ult by standing there and auto attacking with 1 MR item item 3070

OglafNov 20, 201613 votes

{quoted}

The bigger issue is tanks being broken lel. Why would you play other champs when you can literally outtrade a Kat ult by standing there and auto attacking with 1 MR item

... did you even freakin' read anything I wrote?

PennsNov 20, 20163 votes

I read everything but I dont get your point lol. Its not damage itemization, its already broken tanks getting a 1000+ shield for doing what theyre supposed to do.

OglafNov 20, 20168 votes

{quoted}

I read everything but I dont get your point lol. Its not damage itemisazion, its already broken tanks getting a 1000+ shield for doing what theyre supposed to do.

Nope, you didn't read past the title, I'm sure of it. Tanks are a non-issue - to say otherwise is utterly moronic.

The problem is Champs like Hecarim (who has skyrocketed in win/play rate as of the CoTC patch, just FYI) who take the Keystone together with their usual damage-bruiser item build. He really loses nothing by not going into the other "damage" mastery trees.

PermabannedGarenNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nope, you didn't read past the title, I'm sure of it. Tanks are a non-issue - to say otherwise is utterly moronic.

That must be why Nautilus' win rate skyrocketed to one of the best in top lane.

Rockm SockmNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

... did you even freakin' read anything I wrote?

You ignored high base and ability damage on tanks too keep them relevant with low damage items.

Now they build 1 damage or juggernaut item, are hard to kill do to poor anti-tank items, and have unlimited shields ontop of the c/c.

VisthaNov 20, 20162 votes

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ftfy

You need to use 3 "" for the first arm.

JonxxNov 21, 20161 votes

The hero we need.

VisthaNov 21, 20161 votes

But the one you don't deserve.

http://pm1.narvii.com/6096/8418b44afa08d4310b10ff7bde93bf8fe8eb1d86_hq.jpg

Jet SettNov 20, 20162 votes

Base damages are also high on tanks so they do decent damage when not building any.

HazyCloud7Nov 20, 20162 votes

We already know what the game looks like when tank items are overtuned. See the Sunfire/IBG/Visage tank meta from earlier this season where tanks were practically unkillable.

Im curious, what class's damage itemization do you think is a problem?

MarshbouyNov 20, 20162 votes

Im curious, what class's damage itemization do you think is a problem?

all of them. If a tank can't 1v5 and live for 5+ seconds, damage itemization is too good.

HazyCloud7Nov 20, 20164 votes

No offense, but assuming you're not being sarcastic this kind of statement exactly what people are talking about when they say some tank players are delusional.

Tank base damages are far, far too high for this to be a thing. Full tank Malphite can essentially 60-0 an adc or mage with R/Q/E auto. Zac's Q/E/R can put out 1210 BASE damage alone to one target. If people want tanks to be really, REALLY tanky then perhaps when riot gets around to doing a tank update they can make tank items scale better on tanks, significantly nerf their base damages and also look at nerfing the last Whisper upgrades.

But presently, there is no way tanks can jump in 1v5 + survive for 5 seconds while everybody has 5-6 items items and still be balanced.

MarshbouyNov 20, 20162 votes

I'm not being sarcastic. Most tank players actually do want to 1v5 and live for 5+ seconds.

Tank base damages are far, far too high for this to be a thing. Full tank Malphite can essentially 60-0 an adc or mage with R/Q/E auto

Yeah pretty much. tank players are insanely delusional, especially since they bring up shit like the 4 marksman meta from a year ago to warrant tank buffs now.

HazyCloud7Nov 20, 20161 votes

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. Yeah it's very strange to me that ever since we left the Sunfire/IBG/Visage tank meta tank mains have been asking for buffs the rest of the season.

MarshbouyNov 20, 20164 votes

yuuup, in this post OP is literally saying that building full damage makes you have damage even if you go into the resolve tree.

which makes no sense... I think he is just trying to bs a reason as to why CoC shouldn't be nerfed (when it is completely insane and should be nerfed)