I just realized somethiing funny. Bursts of Cass threads are often initiated by Stashu's appearances

5G8Nri0B54··10 votes·1,448 views

I guess it's not surprising.

"OMG THE GUY IN CHARGE OF THIS REWORK IS HERE! QUICK DO WHATEVER WE CAN TO SALVAGE THIS MESS/TRY TO GET ACROSS TO HIM THE PROBLEMS WITH THIS REWORK!"

(this very thread is a testament to that :p)

I suspect the burst of discussions about Cassiopeia will be re-ignited with the release of patch 4.21. I won't lie, for the longest time I thought the update was going live in 4.19-4.20. What pushed it back again to 4.21?

With that being said.

Stashu. If you're reading this. Your update isn't going to solve as many problems as you think it will. I explained it over and over again. Your rework is flawed at a very fundamental level.

  1. Even if you say you smoothed out her extreme curve, it doesn't change the fact that you're still making her into a HYPER-CARRY

How do you think Kog'maw players will react if you reworked Kog'maw so that he no longer has his late game, but instead becomes another Miss Fortune instead?

  1. It's still all about her E. You really need to read this to realize the problem with your rework.

  2. She's still a single-target mage that inflicts primarily direct damage. What made her fun before was her ability to inflict mass AoE DoT

  3. You're still going on and on about how giving her a "growing power"-passive fits her. This is where I feel you don't understand what a Poison Mage should be. Why does a Poison Mage's kit have more to do with buffing than it does about debilitating?


(edit: WHAT THE -?! Stop auto-formatting my post dammnit! You just gave me TWO "#1"'s!)

26 Comments

Kowe The Ewok6 votes

To me the main Issue is her game play more than her power. Nothing in her kit works without E anymore which limits her overall rangeto 700 (equals ~ 575 carry range).

Even maxed together Q and W don't have any kill threat. Neither do they offer anywhere near utility to make up for it.

They are unrewarding. So is her ultimate. It's one of the biggest gambles in the game, has a poor range and a 0,5 scaling???! Just compare it to Tibbers which has a higher range, secure stun , 0,8 impact scaling and further 0,2 AOE scaling each second AND can tank towers / block skillshots......

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Yeah that's one of the messages I've been trying to get across.

NO AMOUNT OF NUMBER BUFFS is going to make this rework work simply because the problem isn't just that she is trash...her being trash just exacerbates the problem. The problem with the rework goes down at a much more fundamental level, the actual gameplay itself.

Zakennayo4 votes

It's pretty well known fact, that the only Rioter that knows how to do a rework is the guy that did the Sona one.

Otherwise expect a shitty rework and a dead champ.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

Didn't Scruffy do that?

Isn't he the one who fucked up Skarner?

Zakennayo3 votes

Noooo hold da fuq on!

Scruffy done fucked up Skarner,

Fearless done fix'd up Sona.

The Morello used his Downs Syndrome bat to gimp her...

Serpents Embrace2 votes

Thanks for clearing that up.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Whoever did Sion imo did a fine job with that.

It took as long as it did because his also came with a complete overhaul in voices AND visuals at the same time.

Zakennayo1 votes

Sion had a shitty rework.. He has no real CC/Early damage. And he falls off hard late game..

So unless you get this huge boost early game, you'll lose.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

However, playing Sion feels like Sion. Balancing is easy (relatively speaking), however, making a champion feeling like that champion is the problem with Cassiopeia's rework.

Zakennayo1 votes

Ummm no... Playing Sion feels like you're playing a giant battleship, with no guns.. It's slow, clunky, and useless other than for a meatshield.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

I think that's exactly what they said they wanted him to be in that old Sion thread nearly a year before his rework went out...without the battleship analogy of course. Slow and clunky, particularly emphasized with his ultimate.

Zakennayo1 votes

So... He's basically useless without his ult..

That.. is not good..

Serpents Embrace3 votes

Bursts occur when people see him posting on the boards, and when people haven't seen him post on the boards in a long time.

I wish he'd listen to you. I wish he'd listen to anyone. When the changes you introduce are so, so much worse than the base that you started off of, you should really step back and think about what you're doing wrong.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

Do you want to know the truth OP. Cass' design is primitive for an APC. She will never be good for competitive play. As long as champs like Zed exist Cass will never work with these abilities; they scream one path.

In a game where mobility rules, champs who don't have it need to excel in something. Cass excells in sustained damage which ADCs do better thanks to itemization and supports, as well as ease of use and resourcefulness of auto attacks over spells.

Unfortunately, Riot will never do anything about this. They release new champs who have overloaded kits like mobility, dmg, cc, and safety, yet reworked champs normally have only a few of these important trait

Serpents Embrace2 votes

She wasn't an APC before. She was a DoT mage who used long range, AoE spells to control an area who had an avenue of single-target DPS if given the opportunity. She was, and should always be, the fast, DPS mage foil to Anivia's slow, bursty mage. That's how she was originally designed, not as an AP version of a Marksman.

I don't understand why forcing this role on her is something you're just willing to accept, or why Stashu is trying to enforce as the new status quo.

Saevum2 votes

Bees go where the honey is. And, we can either sting or work something out and make it sweet. Or at least those are the current hopes.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

I just hope he's allergic.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

1 . Even if you say you smoothed out her extreme curve, it doesn't change the fact that you're still making her into a HYPER-CARRY

That's a design goal for the update. You have to explain why it's a bad goal.

How do you think Kog'maw players will react if you reworked Kog'maw so that he no longer has his late game, but instead becomes another Miss Fortune instead?

Many champion updates bother players that like the kit as it is. For example, Karma rework had the 10 remaining Karma players hopping made. Hundreds of pages of thread in GD. You know what? New Karma is better enough to warrant bothering those players.

That's not saying this particular new Cass is the right one. That's saying that the audience for new Cass isn't just old Cass mains, it's all League players, and there's no guarantee that the best Cass design is the one that appeals most to existing Cass players.

2 . It's still all about her E. You really need to read this to realize the problem with your rework.

As with 1, explain why that's bad. Obviously he knows the new kit is all about E. That was a design goal.

3 . She's still a single-target mage that inflicts primarily direct damage. What made her fun before was her ability to inflict mass AoE DoT

This is better. Lead with what you liked about the old kit and why.

4 . You're still going on and on about how giving her a "growing power"-passive fits her. This is where I feel you don't understand what a Poison Mage should be. Why does a Poison Mage's kit have more to do with buffing than it does about debilitating?

I don't believe Cassiopeia was ever a poison mage. She wasn't anywhere close to the best DoT damage. She wasn't the most poison focused character.

Personally, I've always thought that Cassiopeia is a gorgon. I would flip tables if her ult changed, but mechanical changes to the rest of it are fine by me. One of the problems with old Cass is that her kit wasn't focused on anything in particular, it just had a bunch of buttons that did things.

(edit: WHAT THE -?! Stop auto-formatting my post dammnit! You just gave me TWO "#1"'s!)

Yeah, I know, the markup is pretty annoying <3

5G8Nri0B542 votes

The only thing harder than making a wall of text is making a wall of text in response to a wall of text quoting my own wall of text because the god damn forum isn't great with multi-quoting anymore.

That's a design goal for the update. You have to explain why it's a bad goal.

The issue here, and the purpose of my Kog analogy, is simply the fact that the champion has a playerbase who enjoyed the champion for what they were. When you rework a champion, you will always lose some people, but you should at least make some damn EFFORT in satisfying the real fans of the champion, the ones who stuck with her from the beginning. And asides from that, the image of a hyper-carry really doesn't fit a Poison Mage as I'll explain why below...

As for Karma, I stand by Karma players with their disdain. The loss of the ability to link with allies, the loss of that SATISFYING AS HELL heal/damage wave she used to have. It was a serious loss and nobody is capable of understanding because they were all too sheepish to even give the old Karma a try, as UP as she was. Going back to Cass, even if the best Cass isn't one that appeases Cass players, Cass should still be Cass. Not this stupid AP Rambo who does all sorts of thing contrary to a Poison Mage that she is built up to be.

As with 1, explain why that's bad. Obviously he knows the new kit is all about E. That was a design goal.

There's a reason why** there was a link there**. And the reason why I didn't just copy+paste everything in that link into this thread...well...go see for yourself.

I don't believe Cassiopeia was ever a poison mage. She wasn't anywhere close to the best DoT damage. She wasn't the most poison focused character.

Personally, I've always thought that Cassiopeia is a gorgon. I would flip tables if her ult changed, but mechanical changes to the rest of it are fine by me. One of the problems with old Cass is that her kit wasn't focused on anything in particular, it just had a bunch of buttons that did things.

You know I could have sworn I replied to this very post just a minute ago...but with how this forum is structured, hell if I can scrounge it back up. See if you can find it in a reply to your own post.

Either way, she has a strong snake motif, but not necessarily a gorgon one. They could have done a LOT of things to emphasize the gorgon identity if she really had one, but they clearly didn't beyond an R they threw in.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

The only thing harder than making a wall of text is making a wall of text in response to a wall of text quoting my own wall of text because the god damn forum isn't great with multi-quoting anymore.

Yeah. I know. Really bothers me too. Rito plz.

The issue here, and the purpose of my Kog analogy, is simply the fact that the champion has a playerbase who enjoyed the champion for what they were. When you rework a champion, you will always lose some people, but you should at least make some damn EFFORT in satisfying the real fans of the champion, the ones who stuck with her from the beginning.

They have. It will never be enough. It's fundamentally an intractable design problem -- you have a kit that has inherently broken stuff in it, and the broken stuff is what attracted a ton of people to like the champion in the first place. Compare Olaf or Skarner. Same basic issue.

With Cassiopeia, the thing that attracted many people to her is her strong lane bullying, centered on maxing Q first and popping anyone who gets close to the minions. Q cannot be that strong, whether it's DoT or DD, and have Cass be a healthy addition to the game.

There's a reason why** there was a link there**. And the reason why I didn't just copy+paste everything in that link into this thread...well...go see for yourself.

I'd seen it before. tl;dr you have a thematic direction complaint, and it's valid. It's not going to be persuasive to Stashu, though.

From his point of view, the problem here is that Cassiopeia was poorly focused originally, so you can't please everyone when you pick something to focus on. It's totally possible to aim Cassiopeia at being a poison mage, but then you will alienate the part of the Cassiopeia fanbase that likes machine gun E.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

With Cassiopeia, the thing that attracted many people to her is her strong lane bullying, centered on maxing Q first and popping anyone who gets close to the minions. Q cannot be that strong, whether it's DoT or DD, and have Cass be a healthy addition to the game.

Stashu later retracted that statement and added that it was more than just her Q being used as a lane-bully tool, but that her E was also too deadly, leading to situations where no one dared to get within E-range of Cassiopeia, or the moment they get Q'd, they GTFO or die. In other words, the problem was both her Q and her E. And after all that talk of being a lane-bully, you know what Stashu never acknowledged? The inherent counter-play built into DoT. How it's just like any other spells, except it's full impact can be reacted to unless said champion also have a spammy E button to counteract those reactions.

And as I explained in the other thread, nerfing her for her lane-bully was stupid.

I'd seen it before. tl;dr you have a thematic direction complaint, and it's valid. It's not going to be persuasive to Stashu, though.

From his point of view, the problem here is that Cassiopeia was poorly focused originally, so you can't please everyone when you pick something to focus on. It's totally possible to aim Cassiopeia at being a poison mage, but then you will alienate the part of the Cassiopeia fanbase that likes machine gun E.

Yeah that's why I made that other thread of mine that questioned his rework. There has always been two distinct fanbase of Cassiopeia. However both sides did not care about the other's existence as one's enjoyment had no effect on the other. They co-existed in a way.

Stashu with his rework made both sides REALLY visible and REALLY bitter enemies. This is the first time I've seen a rework create such a huge rift between the fanbases of a single champion.

This is where I questioned Stashu's decision to take a dump on one fanbase in order to make the other half happy. He could have either tried harder to preserve both aspects of Cassiopeia or made** a new champion where the machine-gun E FITS the champion**. Yeah a new champion requires a lot of resource, but the side who liked Cassiopeia for what she was would question why he wasted all that time and resource on the rework in the first place.

It's totally possible to aim Cassiopeia at being a poison mage, but then you will alienate the part of the Cassiopeia fanbase that likes machine gun E.

The issue raised here is, do you cater to one side and give the kit that fits the champion, or cater to other side and create a kit that has no relation to what the champion is supposed to be.

For AP rambo,** that should have been given to a champion where such a style actually fits the champion.**

RiotRiot King Cobra3 votes

Realistically, in lane there are few champions that can answer DoT. Lulu, Orianna, and Viktor are the only mid laners that come to mind right now as having shields to mitigate the damage and they are nowhere near as spammable/low cost as Cassi Q. So sure, DoTs have more counter-play built into them, but realistically not many champions have access to said counterplay unless you count popping a health pot as decent counter-play.

This is where I questioned Stashu's decision to take a dump on one fanbase in order to make the other half happy. He could have >either tried harder to preserve both aspects of Cassiopeia or made a new champion where the machine-gun E FITS the champion. Yeah a new champion requires a lot of resource, but the side who liked Cassiopeia for what she was would question why he wasted all that time and resource on the rework in the first place.

The issue raised here is, do you cater to one side and give the kit that fits the champion, or cater to other side and create a kit that >has no relation to what the champion is supposed to be.

For AP rambo, that should have been given to a champion where such a style actually fits the champion.

Who the hell is to say that one direction fits Cass more than the other? Certainly not you or me. Who is to say that a Twin Fang-centered Cassio is not what she is supposed to be? I can argue that she was originally designed to be a fast, sustained DPS version of Anivia, and her Twin Fang is the 'fast' version of Frostbite and thus she fulfills EXACTLY what she was meant to be. It doesn't matter if she's a snake or a woman or a dog or a cat. The intent was to have a champion with a kit similar to Anivia's (where a majority of the damage comes from a single ability - her E) and that intent is entirely met.

Furthermore, I don't see and never saw Cassio as a poison mage. I saw her as a snake woman that was 'cursed' and now has magic powers. Again, who the hell is to say how that magic manifests itself? If it is in the form of magically conjured large fangs then so be it, she's got magic powers now and it fits because she's half snake.

Ultimately, my point is that arguing for her kit to be pushed in a certain direction over another entirely due to thematics as you have been is just a horrible path to go down because every single argument and counterargument that is thrown at you and by you is going to be entirely opinion-based. Why is going down the route of AOE poison mage a better choice gameplay wise and design-wise than going down the route they have chosen outside of thematics?

Riot doesn't see Cass as a champion that should deal massive AOE poison damage. Why should the people who like her as a Twin Fang spammer - which falls in line with what Riot sees her as - have to switch over to a new champion? Instead of trying to petition for them to change Cass, why not petition for a new champion that has a kit specifically around poisoning/crippling people? If you don't want to because you like Cass then why should the people who like Twin Fang-centered Cass get shafted and given a new champion to satisfy their desires?

To clarify, your argument frustrates me to no end because you're basically saying "Hey you alienated us who liked Cass for her AOE poison but really you should alienate the Twin Fang lovers because they don't know what Cass is really all about." It's an incredibly selfish point of view, imo, and what is worse is that Cassio's playstyle has not changed significantly at all. Seriously, she plays out lane the same as she did before the only difference being that her Q does less damage and her E does more. While I admit I liked to max E pre-rework, realistically I wound up maxing Q just as often as E (actually I usually maxed both not taking W until 13). The playstyle is largely the same, the only difference is that you actually have to interact with the opponent now for literally 1 second to fire off two Twin Fangs.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Who is to say that a Twin Fang-centered Cassio is not what she is supposed to be? I can argue that she was originally designed to be a fast, sustained DPS version of Anivia, and her Twin Fang is the 'fast' version of Frostbite and thus she fulfills EXACTLY what she was meant to be. ... Ultimately, my point is that arguing for her kit to be pushed in a certain direction over another entirely due to thematics as you have been is just a horrible path to go down because every single argument and counterargument that is thrown at you and by you is going to be entirely opinion-based.

Right. Can't get anywhere useful following this line of thinking.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

In other words, the problem was both her Q and her E.

Right. This is why you can't satisfy both halves of the old Cass playerbase. Strong Q and strong E will always be oppressive in lane.

This is where I questioned Stashu's decision to take a dump on one fanbase in order to make the other half happy. He could have either tried harder to preserve both aspects of Cassiopeia or made** a new champion where the machine-gun E FITS the champion**. Yeah a new champion requires a lot of resource, but the side who liked Cassiopeia for what she was would question why he wasted all that time and resource on the rework in the first place.

Making a new champion for the other half still leaves a bunch of people unhappy with new Cass. Also, Stashu does not work on new champion designs. He can't win.

TPBlanket1 votes

At this point i think they should just get rid of her mana. Just make her into an apc markmen. She can't go bot cuz she just gets out pushed cuz she can't sustain.. Let CDR affect the 0.5 reduction so at 40% cdr its like 0.3 seconds. Make using e on minions bring the cdr to 0.5 anyways. Bam you have a bot lane APC. Move the movement speed passive to the e... Let the ult not have a cast time. You now have a long ranged hyper carry bot lane. Ya this seems a bit over powering but at this point i rather see her Op then get smacked with the nerf bat because up is the only way to go right?

5G8Nri0B542 votes

The obvious issue with this is...the AP Marksmen image really really isn't Cassiopeia at all. It kinda takes a dump on what she is supposed to be.

I'm not against the concept of an AP Marksmen (Azir), but not Cassiopeia.

More from Gameplay

More by 5G8Nri0B54