I knew that riot was going to make yasuo's windwall block kayle autos. Riot can you not do that? Kayle was yasuo's best counter and now look at her. We need something to beat yasuo and can go through that stupid windwall. The problem with yasuo isnt his damage, isnt his dashing, isnt his shield, its his bloody windwall and now one of the only ranged champs that can ignore his stupid windwall, now cant.
Oleandervine6 votesWhy is everyone acting surprised that ranged attacks are getting blocked by windwall? It's like getting surprised that flushing the toilet makes the water go away.
CorruptedScythe2 votesCould be because current Kayle's auto attacks DO go through his wind wall; it's annoying that they would take that away from her.
Iota Theta1 votesCould be because current Kayle's auto attacks DO go through his wind wall; it's annoying that they would take that away from her.
It’s because they originated at the target instead of her, more like Cassiopeia’s Q. Problem with that is Cassio’s Q is at least dodgable, while live Kayle’s E autos are uncounterable auto attacks. No dodging them, just taking the full dps. There needs to be some counterplay to that.
CorruptedScythe1 votesNo, I don't think there does need to be any counterplay to it. Just like in every game without a Yasuo, ADCs have "uncounterable auto attacks." It would be nice to have one option in the game to get around that BS.
Iota Theta2 votesNo, I don't think there does need to be any counterplay to it. Just like in every game without a Yasuo, ADCs have "uncounterable auto attacks." It would be nice to have one option in the game to get around that BS.
Well, Yasuo and Braum. However, people also dislike how uncounterable auto attacks are from the rest of marksmen, because of their damage output and how they can’t miss outside of a few exceptions, and how there’s no counterplay to undodgable crit damage per second.
So, this is a good change, honestly. His wall is annoying at times, but it at least has a decent enough cooldown and you don’t always have to fight it. You can also bait it out and hit him when it drops. Kayle? Her autoattacks can’t miss, and considering the damage she currently pumps out as she gets her items, this is for the better. Otherwise, you’d have to burst her before she kills you, or just not be in range of her. So fun. At least she now has a way to be countered for a few seconds.
Iota Theta2 votesWhy is everyone acting surprised that ranged attacks are getting blocked by windwall? It's like getting surprised that flushing the toilet makes the water go away.
Apparently her autos being an instant ranged no counter AoE was fine before...not like something like should have form of counterplay, right?
Karn Bishop1 votesKayle is the manifestation of justice and whats the point if you cannot punish the biggest sinner in league of legends?
Oleandervine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2019-02-22T20:12:08.604+0000)
Kayle is the manifestation of justice and whats the point if you cannot punish the biggest sinner in league of legends?
Because sins and sinners are a societal construct, and the fact that a fart of wind is all that impedes it is indicative of the ludicrousness of the entire concept. :P
Napoleon35 votesas a main kayle i have to say that after the rework i guess that i will never play her again she sucks so hard as reworked riot ruined another main champion feels bad man.
YuumiSoThicc1 votesas a main kayle i have to say that after the rework i guess that i will never play her again she sucks so hard as reworked riot ruined another main champion feels bad man.
this^^
Iota Theta5 votesSo, a ranged, instant, AoE attack like current Kayle has is suddenly a good thing? Why shouldn’t a ranged attack as strong as Kayle’s have some form of counter? I..honestly don’t know why people are surprised about this. Yes, his windwall is annoying, but letting a ranged AoE wave on auto attacks have no counterplay like that is equally, if not more so, ridiculous.
As an aside, what the heck was the point of some of those interaction tests? Nothing was really surprising in those.
Support 4 Lyfe1 votesIt was already like this before, she already had an AoE ranged auto attack that bypassed his wall and I've never heard anyone complain about Kayle and her sub 48% winrate.......
Iota Theta1 votesIt was already like this before, she already had an AoE ranged auto attack that bypassed his wall and I've never heard anyone complain about Kayle and her sub 48% winrate.......
Her sub 48%? I’m seeing above 50%, with only a couple dips below. She’s also not the most picked.
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kayle/
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kayle
But she was complained about. Perhaps not that exact feature, but she was often considered a lower counterplay champ, or at least feast or famine. There was no stopping her if she got going, and her autos becoming instant AoE at a certain point was an issue, even if not spoken of much. People hated ranged top laners, well she was one, and one who’s autos were worse than others because instant and couldn’t even be stopped by the anti-projectile tools.
Malphite can build full AP to make his 100% AP AoE ult a nuke, and it’s not complained about much. It’s still an issue though. Just because it doesn’t receive many complaints relative to other things, doesn’t make it not an issue.
manbearswine3 votes[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-22T16:02:40.562+0000)
So, a ranged, instant, AoE attack like current Kayle has is suddenly a good thing? Why shouldn’t a ranged attack as strong as Kayle’s have some form of counter? I..honestly don’t know why people are surprised about this.
Why is something as obnoxious as windwall having almost no counters is a good thing? Aoe and ranged attacks you can keep your distance from, that doesn't help against windwall.
Yes, his windwall is annoying, but letting a ranged AoE wave on auto attacks have no counterplay like that is equally, if not more so, ridiculous.
Yeah no, windwall is by far more obnoxious, they're not even comparable, windwall is way worse to play against.
Iota Theta1 votesWhy is something as obnoxious as windwall having almost no counters is a good thing? Aoe and ranged attacks you can keep your distance from, that doesn't help against windwall.
Why is something as obnoxious as ranged auto attacks having almost no counters a good thing? Oh no, two champions can stop them, whatever will we do if those champions are in a match? Windwall you can just walk away from, or bait it out, or wait until it falls and resume attacking. Melee champs have no issues with windwall. Not to mention, even if he throws it out, he still has to get in range of the ranged champ. So either he throws it out early to negate damage but then can’t deal as much damage, or he waits til he gets close but then takes all that damage in the process.
But yes, I love having to stay out of range of my opponent and not being able to do anything. Totally excellent counterplay..
Yeah no, windwall is by far more obnoxious, they're not even comparable, windwall is way worse to play against.
Ha. Hahaha. You mean the thing that can be baited out and punished for improper use? Compared to damage that cannot be dodged? And is only countered by 2-5 champs (Yasuo windwall, Braum wall, Jax Counterstrike, Teemo Blind, Quinn Nearsight) and even those only partially? Yeah, ok.
Windwall can be annoying, but worse is the idea that a champion can just AoE DPS with no counter other than stay out of range or burst her..like almost every other marksmen.
manbearswine1 votestl;dr at the bottom
[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2019-02-22T18:25:58.711+0000)
Why is something as obnoxious as ranged auto attacks having almost no counters a good thing?
Simple: because it's not obnoxious.
Oh no, two champions can stop them, whatever will we do if those champions are in a match?
You do realize certain champions getting invalidated by a very small pool of champions is a pretty big problem right? especially if those certain champions make up a pretty large pool. Not that yasuo actually counters ranged auto attackers, he's more of an issue for skillshot based champions.
Windwall you can just walk away from, or bait it out, or wait until it falls and resume attacking.
Only if the yasuo player sucks balls. Windwall is instantly cast, you'd have a point if it had a delay, but it does not. Currently you need yasuo to think that you're using an ability when you're not using an ability, he needs to mess up bad.
Melee champs have no issues with windwall.
This game is more than 1v1 in case you haven't noticed. yasuo can isolate those melee champs from the rest of their team, that's very much still a problem. on top of that tanks often rely on abilities that can be reflexed check via windwall, so it's really mostly bruisers who don't mind it...in 1v1 scenarios.
Not to mention, even if he throws it out, he still has to get in range of the ranged champ. So either he throws it out early to negate damage but then can’t deal as much damage, or he waits til he gets close but then takes all that damage in the process.
Yasuo doesn't exactly just walks up to enemies and takes damage while slowly moving in their direction, he's one of the most mobile champions in the game.
Yasuo also should easily dps a squishy, he doesn't need windwall to negate their dps first, he either uses it to cut out their teammates, or negate their cc if they try to defend themselves with it.
But yes, I love having to stay out of range of my opponent and not being able to do anything. Totally excellent counterplay..
Well tanks and bruisers can just take the damage(not ignore it, but survive long enough to do their job if they play properly), whereas ranged champions with avoidable damage outrange them, and assassins burst faster and have mobility, so yeah, there really isn't an issue with point click ranged auto attacks.
Ha. Hahaha. You mean the thing that can be baited out and punished for improper use? Compared to damage that cannot be dodged?
Yes, because you can easily outplay a ranged dpser if YOU play your cards right, due to the instant cast of windwall(and his fast dashes) to beat yasuo HE has to mess up.
It's why yasuo has a 70% banrate, and is consistently one of the most banned and hated champions in league, stop playing stupid.
And is only countered by 2-5 champs (Yasuo windwall, Braum wall, Jax Counterstrike, Teemo Blind, Quinn Nearsight) and even those only partially? Yeah, ok.
Yeah that's because good counters require playing properly, instead of "pass a reflex check to invalidate".
tl;dr :
Windwall can be annoying, but worse is the idea that a champion can just AoE DPS with no counter other than stay out of range or burst her..like almost every other marksmen.
We can pretend like it's me saying yasuo is worse and you saying ranged point click is worse, but the banrates and neverending hate give a much clearer picture of what most players think: yasuo's reflex checking is far worse to play against than ranged autos.
Iota Theta1 votestl;dr at the bottom
Simple: because it's not obnoxious.
Ha. Hahahahaha. You realize that this is the thing people hate about ADCs, right? They have the best DPS, burst through crit, all from ranged auto attacks, that cannot miss.
You do realize certain champions getting invalidated by a very small pool of champions is a pretty big problem right? especially if those certain champions make up a pretty large pool. Not that yasuo actually counters ranged auto attackers, he's more of an issue for skillshot based champions.
Actually, no, I don’t see it as a problem.
Why? Because they aren’t conpletely invalidated.
Why? Because the windwall only lasts for 4 seconds, and at max rank has an 18 second CD. So that’s a 14 second downtime where he can’t block projectiles. It’s also the skill most often maxed last, so until level 13, it’s on a 26 second cooldown. That is quite the window of not invalidating. Let’s add that among champs that he does worse against, Azir, Kennen, Quinn, and more.
Only if the yasuo player sucks balls. Windwall is instantly cast, you'd have a point if it had a delay, but it does not. Currently you need yasuo to think that you're using an ability when you're not using an ability, he needs to mess up bad.
No, not really only if. It’s really not the most difficult thing to bait. Move like you’re gonna trade, cast a lower CD ability, get windwall, back away, trade when drops, profit.
This game is more than 1v1 in case you haven't noticed. yasuo can isolate those melee champs from the rest of their team, that's very much still a problem. on top of that tanks often rely on abilities that can be reflexed check via windwall, so it's really mostly bruisers who don't mind it...in 1v1 scenarios.
You’re right, it is more than 1v1. But the point still stands. Melees do better against Yasuo. Yasuo’s top counters are melee champs because they can punish him more in trades and don’t care for his windwall. Perhaps windwall isolates from the rest of the team, but Yasuo needs to advance into the enemy team, either right into a melee, or a tank that can CC him, or he does so as the diver on your team takes out a more important target.
Yasuo doesn't exactly just walks up to enemies and takes damage while slowly moving in their direction, he's one of the most mobile champions in the game.
No, he doesn’t just walk up to them. Never said he did. That is, unless he doesn’t have enemy minions nearby, since his mobility is literally gated by having an enemy to dash through. Otherwise, yeah, he’s just walking up to you. Even then, a good number of ranged champs have some skill that can hit pst minions and hit him.
Yasuo also should easily dps a squishy, he doesn't need windwall to negate their dps first, he either uses it to cut out their teammates, or negate their cc if they try to defend themselves with it.
Depends on the champ. Are they more burst? He’ll need it as he goes in. Do they have greater DPS? He’ll need it.
Well tanks and bruisers can just take the damage(not ignore it, but survive long enough to do their job if they play properly), whereas ranged champions with avoidable damage outrange them, and assassins burst faster and have mobility, so yeah, there really isn't an issue with point click ranged auto attacks.
If tanks and fighters were having such an easy time with it, we wouldn’t have all the issues with being killed too fast even when the target doesn’t have armor pen.
And yes, while that is all the case, there is an issue with point click ranged autoattacks. Just outranging them doesn’t equate to counterplay. counterbuilding with armor should work yet it doesn’t always. Assassins currently have to burst faster because of the nature of current adc auto attack damage.
Yes, because you can easily outplay a ranged dpser if YOU play your cards right, due to the instant cast of windwall(and his fast dashes) to beat yasuo HE has to mess up.
So, wait. You say you can outplay a ranged dpser by playing cards right, but you say Yasuo’s card is unfair because it allows him to do better against ranged? His card that’s a full 4 seconds with a max 26 second CD until layegame, which allows him to stop otherwise unstoppable damage? Did you know Yasuo was built with battling ranged targets in mind, and that’s his only real defensive tool in order to do so?
It's why yasuo has a 70% banrate, and is consistently one of the most banned and hated champions in league, stop playing stupid.
It’s not just his windwall. It’s also his double crit, his mobility, his lack of resource, his free shield, his ultimate putting him outside turret range.
It’s funny, if it was just his windwall, he wouldn’t get as much complaints. Because Jax doesn’t get dodge complaints, Braum does get Unbreakable complaints, and yet they do the same thing on a lower CD too.
Also, thanks for the insult in saying I’m stupid or “playing stupid”. This discussion will be done then
Yeah that's because good counters require playing properly, instead of "pass a reflex check to invalidate".
You’re right, good counters do require playing properly instead of passing a reflex check, which is why Windwall is more fair. You don’t have to interact with it, and it requires playing properly both with it and against it. Meanwhile, to stop an ADC right click DPS, you need to have good reflexes to kill them faster. Thanks for that.
tl;dr :
We can pretend like it's me saying yasuo is worse and you saying ranged point click is worse, but the banrates and neverending hate give a much clearer picture of what most players think: yasuo's reflex checking is far worse to play against than ranged autos.
Except, I’m not the only one that says it. Many also respond in kind that ranged auto attacks are obnoxious. When the only ways to deal with something are to kill it fast, stay out of range, or die to it, that’s an issue, and one that is far more expansive than Yasuo’s Windwall, that has persisted longer than Yasuo’s existence, and is also mandatory in around 99% of games. They just aren’t all banned because there aren’t enough bans.
Thanks for showing me I should leave the discussion though.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-23T01:42:33.222+0000)
Ha. Hahahahaha. You realize that this is the thing people hate about ADCs, right? They have the best DPS, burst through crit, all from ranged auto attacks, that cannot miss.
The boards whine about anything really, generally people don't hate ADCs, unless they are op, then they hate that they are OP. You're right that the boards hate on adcs somewhat consistently, but asides from it being a boards specific thing(or maybe a low elo thing? I don't think so but maybe), even the boards hate on yasuo much more than on adcs.
Actually, no, I don’t see it as a problem.
Why? Because they aren’t conpletely invalidated.
Why? Because the windwall only lasts for 4 seconds, and at max rank has an 18 second CD. So that’s a 14 second downtime where he can’t block projectiles. It’s also the skill most often maxed last, so until level 13, it’s on a 26 second cooldown. That is quite the window of not invalidating. Let’s add that among champs that he does worse against, Azir, Kennen, Quinn, and more.
Windwall isn't some sort of randomly activated passive, and as I've said, one of(if not THE) worst thing about it is that it's instant cast-no delay. So if you have some powerful ability, or one defensive ability that actually can defend you from yasuo, but is also telegraped, then unless it has a shorter cast+travel time than ~0.3 seconds(average human reaction time, it being even less for people with particularly fast reflexes) it's going to get negated(unless yasuo sucks), and you can't use it. An ability being able to reliably reflex check your most powerful abilities, or your only defensive abilities is VERY much invalidation. It's why kassadin lost his silence, it's why champions like fizz are so despised. It's why malzhar's minion spawn got a delay added to it.
No, not really only if. It’s really not the most difficult thing to bait. Move like you’re gonna trade, cast a lower CD ability, get windwall, back away, trade when drops, profit.
Look, maybe you're terrible and as such your opponents are terrible and this works in trash tier, this doesn't work anywhere else. If there's an ability of yours yasuo is worried about he will hold windwall for that ability, he's not gonna spam windwall every time a 4 cd skillshot goes in his general direction.
You’re right, it is more than 1v1. But the point still stands. Melees do better against Yasuo. Yasuo’s top counters are melee champs because they can punish him more in trades and don’t care for his windwall. Perhaps windwall isolates from the rest of the team, but Yasuo needs to advance into the enemy team, either right into a melee, or a tank that can CC him, or he does so as the diver on your team takes out a more important target.
What the hell do you think "top counters" are? They're laners who will spend the game 1v1 him, if you shit hard on him in lane you'd still be in a good spot even though your team is weaker. Outside of laning however his best counters are specifically melee champions, but champions with high reliability. That's why things like malzhar, lissandra, annie and prerework kayle are on his weak matchups, he can't reflex check their defenses/strongest abilities.
No, he doesn’t just walk up to them. Never said he did. That is, unless he doesn’t have enemy minions nearby, since his mobility is literally gated by having an enemy to dash through. Otherwise, yeah, he’s just walking up to you. Even then, a good number of ranged champs have some skill that can hit pst minions and hit him.
You're forgetting that teamfights also have other champions in them, some of which are front liners that need to be in the front line, where yasuo will use them to get closer to carries.
Depends on the champ. Are they more burst? He’ll need it as he goes in. Do they have greater DPS? He’ll need it.
I was talking mostly about ranged adcs, so generally he has greater dps. But here when talking about burst champions you clearly show you're aware that he will just reflex check their strongest ability invalidating them, meaning they'll have to rely on him being god awful, throwing in on a minor ability and then going in anyway.
If tanks and fighters were having such an easy time with it, we wouldn’t have all the issues with being killed too fast even when the target doesn’t have armor pen.
I never said an easy time, I said they can manage it if they play right, and in metas when adcs aren't broken(which is most of the time), they can. It's just that these boards have wet dreams of bruisers being completely unstoppable, going in 1v5 sustaining damage from adcs+other damage dealers, and cc from everyone else, and killing everyone anyway. That is not good gameplay.
And yes, while that is all the case, there is an issue with point click ranged autoattacks. Just outranging them doesn’t equate to counterplay.
Yes it does. If you're a skillshot based mage "outranging" thing is kinda your job. And bruisers/tanks can take the damage, they just need to take it when it needs to be taken, instead of just running 1v5 and wondering why they died and the adc didn't.
counterbuilding with armor should work yet it doesn’t always.
If the adcs is fed enough then the adc is going to be a problem, if the adc is vayne(/etc), she is also notoriously problematic.
Assassins currently have to burst faster because of the nature of current adc auto attack damage.
Assassins always had to burst fast because their design in league was never really thought through. If they have proper counterplay they are garbage, if they don't they are cancer.
So, wait. You say you can outplay a ranged dpser by playing cards right, but you say Yasuo’s card is unfair because it allows him to do better against ranged? His card that’s a full 4 seconds with a max 26 second CD until layegame, which allows him to stop otherwise unstoppable damage?
No, the problem is he can reflex check the most powerful abilities/only defensive mechanisms of other champions: the instant cast of windwall.
Did you know Yasuo was built with battling ranged targets in mind, and that’s his only real defensive tool in order to do so?
He very much was not, yasuo was built with dark souls/dmc in mind: "time your roll right and you can avoid anything", it's great PvE character design, god awful PvP character design.
It’s not just his windwall. It’s also his double crit, his mobility, his lack of resource, his free shield, his ultimate putting him outside turret range.
When people hate something they start hating everything about it. His free shield is fine, lack of resources could be fine, ultimate putting him outside of turrent range also fine. The problem is insta cast windwall and nearly infinite fast dashes.
It’s funny, if it was just his windwall, he wouldn’t get as much complaints. Because Jax doesn’t get dodge complaints, Braum does get Unbreakable complaints, and yet they do the same thing on a lower CD too.
Jax only avoids auto attack damage, let windwall only block auto attacks, see where that places you. Braum still has to eat cc, and relies on his teammates. And as I've said, it's not only his windwall, it's also his ability to dash so much. both provide him with the ability to negate too many crucial abilities of other champs via a reflex check.
Also, thanks for the insult in saying I’m stupid or “playing stupid”. This discussion will be done then
It was going to be anyway.
You’re right, good counters do require playing properly instead of passing a reflex check, which is why Windwall is more fair. You don’t have to interact with it, and it requires playing properly both with it and against it. Meanwhile, to stop an ADC right click DPS, you need to have good reflexes to kill them faster. Thanks for that.
Good reflexes won't kill and adcs faster, good positioning and skillshots will.
Except, I’m not the only one that says it. Many also respond in kind that ranged auto attacks are obnoxious. When the only ways to deal with something are to kill it fast, stay out of range, or die to it, that’s an issue, and one that is far more expansive than Yasuo’s Windwall, that has persisted longer than Yasuo’s existence, and is also mandatory in around 99% of games. They just aren’t all banned because there aren’t enough bans.
It's just a minor insanity of the boards, it doesn't actually represent the playerbase, unlike the hate for yasuo, which is everywhere.
Thanks for showing me I should leave the discussion though.
Hell if you actually got that then that's great. Definitely leave any and all discussions on the boards, this place is a shithole. I don't even care how you got that, the important thing is you did.
hhaavviikk4 votesoh great, kayle, who now has to suffer through a shit early and ok ish mid game to get to the late game hyper carry status will still be shit late game due to windwall, splendid!
LTK KoRo1 votesah yeah because windwall is infinite length and duration, also i forgot that after lvl 16 kayle gets locked into cage made of windwalls.
She won't be useless, you're overreacting hard
Critmaster Garen4 votestheyre projectiles like any marksman attack. why would you expect them to bypass windwall? it makes sense that they dont.
Stars Shaper2 votes^ This
If they kept the mechanic as it was pre-rework then they wouldn't have been blocked.
Iota Theta1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1fu5eKa3,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-22T16:16:52.616+0000)
theyre projectiles like any marksman attack. why would you expect them to bypass windwall? it makes sense that they dont.
I’m surprised people would rather her AoE DPS have 0 counters other than kill her or stay out of range than have two skills that can stop her attacks.
xDogMeatx2 votes#riot hates champion vs champion counterplay picking
lolipopevelynn1 votesYa his windwall has always been the problem.