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Right now there are 2 stats in League that just have to go!

Raoul··3 votes·758 views

**EDIT: Be warned: I will not downvote and ignore anything in this thread, I am here for a discussion, because I love this game, and I wish to see it improve and become better. This thread represents my honest opinion about problems with the game, that hold it back in ways of balancing and overall creative freedom and design choises. So if your opinion is different from mine, you are welcome to tell me, but prepare for a discussion. **

And these are Crit and Cooldown reduction.

Both of them are broken in their own way.

Crit as it is in this game should have never existed in the first place. Just like dodge was before, its a really unhealthy stat that offers little to none counterplay and makes the characters that can abuse it (ADCs) damn broken. How RIOT handels it is also very poorly done, since the stat is litterally and extra, you can build a normal full dmg ADC build and still end up with 70-80% crit chance, changing your Autoattach damage to like 500 per hit. And you didnt even sacrifice anything for that. Critical strike is badly designed. It should not exist in that form. To Counter tanks we have armor penetration or damage based on HP, which can be supported with more new items so that ADCs are still an effective tank counter, without becoming assassin burst shooters that just twohit anyone whos not a tank.

Cooldown reduction is yet another stat that is broken, but in a different way. Again it is a stat that RIOT just throws around like candy, but it has become a bandaid stat to make unwanted items more desireable. On top of that most champions skills are already designed so that the amount of CDR their build will bring them is already calculated. For Supports for example trying to get 45% CDR is not optional, its mandatory, highly limiting the options they have in their build path (ok, and that there are literalls 4 support Items you have to get every game, but that is another story).

Both of these stats are poor design choises and hurt the game more than they help it. Both of these stats should just go away.

31 Comments

King of Demons2 votes

Crit can stay, attack speed has to go. Attack speed is the single reason ADCs exist and will never disappear (:

Limmie2 votes

And you didnt even sacrifice anything for that.

You sacrifice defense for that. To get 70% critchance you need to go IE + ER (2 VERY expensive items with delayed powerspikes) and a zeal item. That's half of your inventory dedicated to just crit. And then you need boots to position yourself and kite since you always have a target on your back the size of the baron pit. That leaves one slot for armor pentration and lifesteal or GA.

So yeah, (very) late game crit gives you an enormous damage output, but you have to live through the hell of being a super squishy to get there in the first place without being able to have the safety net of armor and resistances besides your base stats.

GreatWhiteNorth1 votes

No.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Raoul2 votes

ok, name one way these stats have a positive effect on gameplay and balancing.

GreatWhiteNorth1 votes

{quoted}

ok, name one way these stats have a positive effect on gameplay and balancing.

I don't find that critical strike breaks the game, it's just a damage multiplier.

As to cooldown reduction, mages without access to it will build pure damage. The role wouldn't look much different from assasin, and so assasins would become more useful. This includes Yasuo .

Anything that makes Yasuo meta is bad.

Raoul1 votes

{quoted}

I don't find that critical strike breaks the game, it's just a damage multiplier.

The problem with Critical strike is, that it makes the midgame adc literally a ranged assassin, who can kill everyone whos not a tank in less than two seconds. There are better ways to ensure you cant just tank ADCs to death while still allowing non tanks to counterplay ADCs.

As to cooldown reduction, mages without access to it will build pure damage.

How is that different from today, where CDR is literally a stat bandaided on Items that already give high AP? I mean... seriously: item 3285 item 3165 Are already part of most mages damage build and you get CDR on it for free. The fact that you need to reach high CDR actually prevents alot of mages from going anything BUT full dmg. (Well, that and the lack of Items that give them any freedom)

Anything that makes Yasuo meta is bad.

Agree. But, look at it that way: No Crit, no double crit passive^^

Wráthful1 votes

{quoted}

ok, name one way these stats have a positive effect on gameplay and balancing.

50+ champs are totally dogshit late game w/o cooldown reduction and adc role will be gone w/o crit also tanks will be the meta forever since w/o crit 10k hp tanks will be impossible to be killed think before posting troll posts.

Raoul2 votes

You did realise that my post called out that many champions are designed around CDR, simply because CDR exist, limiting the freedom of their item build, because the yhave to get that CDR? Getting rid of CDR would of course include to change the Cooldowns on Champions designedaround this broken stat.

Getting rid of Crit on the other hand, would allow way more chances to introduce Items that are designed to take out specific kinds of threats. Anti Healing against healers, anti armor or HP based bonus like BotrK. Crit is a very lazy all purpose solution, that is flawed to the bone by making it not only a stst against tanks, but also a stat that just nukes away anyone who is NOT a tank.

Maybe you should think by yourself before insulting people. But I guess you didnt even read my post after the first line.

Wráthful1 votes

{quoted}

You did realise that my post called out that many champions are designed around CDR, simply because CDR exist, limiting the freedom of their item build, because the yhave to get that CDR? Getting rid of CDR would of course include to change the Cooldowns on Champions designedaround this broken stat.

Getting rid of Crit on the other hand, would allow way more chances to introduce Items that are designed to take out specific kinds of threats. Anti Healing against healers, anti armor or HP based bonus like BotrK. Crit is a very lazy all purpose solution, that is flawed to the bone by making it not only a stst against tanks, but also a stat that just nukes away anyone who is NOT a tank.

Maybe you should think by yourself before insulting people. But I guess you didnt even read my post after the first line.

so u want 50+ champs to get a massive changes to be viable after "removing" cooldown reduction? man your idea is beyond bad.

Raoul1 votes

Honestly, the only thing they hdad to change are the Cooldown numbers at later levels. Thats really not a "massive change".

Critical strike removal would make much more work, because alot of work had to be done on armor penetration and HP based dmg items

Wráthful1 votes

your suggestion wants to completely change the game can u imagine how long will it take to make almost full rework to the game?.

Raoul2 votes

It might take a season, but after that, balancing would be alot easier. Plus every role could get its place again.

Think about it that way: Without the massive burst ADCs get from critical strike, They would have to build anti tank, so that the ADC becomes a frontline melting machine, the counter to tanks. Meanwhile, killing no-tank units would be a job for mages or Assassins, who would therefore find their place in the game again, allowing for much more well rounded team comps, instead of the "protect the ADC" thing we have going in this game like forever.

The ADC would still be a very important part of the team, but now other roles become important too. Right now, the marksman becomes the tank melter, the assassin and the burster in one person, and that is really not healthy.

Say for yourself, are you really happy with how much more important the ADC is than anyone else in the whole team right now? Do you think that it is good, balanced game design as it is?

Its not like big change scales like this didnt happen before. The mastery changes in the past, as well as the rune changes that are coming up now will requier work on the same level of complexity as the removal of these two stats would.

Ironfield1 votes

What? "you didnt even sacrifice anything for that" Do you sacrifice anything for any other stat? (other than gold), Removing cooldown reduction is like removing attack speed. Actually Crit is one of the few stats that you do have to sacrifice for, it doesn't enhance any of your abilities.

Raoul1 votes

Critical strike is just a free bonus stat on Items that are a normal Damage based build anyway. You still get damage, you still get Attack speed, you still get other Item bonuses.

Wráthful1 votes

what's next remove physical damage and make magical the only damage type?

Raoul1 votes

Why exactly would you think that while reading my post?

Wráthful1 votes

{quoted}

Why exactly would you think that while reading my post?

i think u need to take a drug test way too much marijuana for u today.

Raoul1 votes

So, I guess your intend here is not to have a discussion, but just to insult someone whos opinion is different from yours, without any intention to start an open conversation, correct?

Ironfield1 votes

i think youre underestimating how difficult it is to balance league. The way youre explaining the game is a huge rock paper scissors. In theory it should work like that however in practice it just doesnt. Isnt bursting someone the same as assassinating someone. What differentiates a assassin form a burst mage is having an escape/high mobility. Adc are important however every other role is just as important. Protect the adc comps require supports, Junglers who can help secure objectives and gank, mid laners that control the flow of the game, and tanks that protect and start engages. Yes adc are important damage dealers however without initiation, support, early game pressure, and magic damage they would survive on there own.

Raoul2 votes

Well, I would like to think that every other role is just as important as the ADC, but the simple fact that even in pro play, other roles are ofteh left out of the team for a second ADC kinda tells a different story, dont you think?

And I have no illusion about the difficulty such a change would bring with. Finding balance might take a season after that. But I really think that the game could be in a much more healthy place after that, and I think it is worth the work that is needed.

Please allow me to tell you my vision of how the Marksmen role should work. The ADC should be the enemy of the tank. But they shouldnt do it in a way that also makes them also bursting like crazy, which is what crit does. They should schieve this by having their itemisation build around armor penetration and %HP damage, so that they are just as effective against tanks as they are right now, but not as powerfull at killing anything thats not a tank as they are right now too.

Non tank targets should be the job of the mage or the assassin, not the ADC. Of course the ADC would still deal damage to them. See, without crit, a singel autohit would still deal 200+ dmg to non tank champions, on an Attackspeed of at least 1.75 if not higher. ADCs wouldnt become weak or useless, but other roles would have their places in that game, and a way to ourplay the ADC.

And yes, you are correct in your difference between Assassination and bursting. I would also add, but for that case, I would refere to it as Assassins and Mages, that mages should have more ways to controle the masses, while Assassins should only have small, singel target interruption/slow spells, that weaken their target.

Wráthful1 votes

{quoted}

Well, I would like to think that every other role is just as important as the ADC, but the simple fact that even in pro play, other roles are ofteh left out of the team for a second ADC kinda tells a different story, dont you think?

Please allow me to tell you my vision of how the Marksmen role should work. The ADC should be the enemy of the tank. But they shouldnt do it in a way that also makes them also bursting like crazy, which is what crit does. They should schieve this by having their itemisation build around armor penetration and %HP damage, so that they are just as effective against tanks as they are right now, but not as powerfull at killing anything thats not a tank as they are right now too.

Non tank targets should be the job of the mage or the assassin, not the ADC. Of course the ADC would still deal damage to them. See, without crit, a singel autohit would still deal 200+ dmg to non tank champions, on an Attackspeed of at least 1.75 if not higher. ADCs wouldnt become weak or useless, but other roles would have their places in that game, and a way to ourplay the ADC.

And yes, you are correct in your difference between Assassination and bursting. I would also add, but for that case, I would refere to it as Assassins and Mages, that mages should have more ways to controle the masses, while Assassins should only have small, singel target interruption/slow spells, that weaken their target.

when ppl say how op adc's are they miss that how easy they are to be killed u all sound like adc does crazy damage w/o 4-6 items which is not true.

Raoul2 votes

well, how easy are they to kill with a whole team guarding them and a guardian angel in every item build? And I never claimed that ADCs dont need items to be effective.

Ironfield1 votes

{quoted}

Well, I would like to think that every other role is just as important as the ADC, but the simple fact that even in pro play, other roles are ofteh left out of the team for a second ADC kinda tells a different story, dont you think?

And I have no illusion about the difficulty such a change would bring with. Finding balance might take a season after that. But I really think that the game could be in a much more healthy place after that, and I think it is worth the work that is needed.

Please allow me to tell you my vision of how the Marksmen role should work. The ADC should be the enemy of the tank. But they shouldnt do it in a way that also makes them also bursting like crazy, which is what crit does. They should schieve this by having their itemisation build around armor penetration and %HP damage, so that they are just as effective against tanks as they are right now, but not as powerfull at killing anything thats not a tank as they are right now too.

Non tank targets should be the job of the mage or the assassin, not the ADC. Of course the ADC would still deal damage to them. See, without crit, a singel autohit would still deal 200+ dmg to non tank champions, on an Attackspeed of at least 1.75 if not higher. ADCs wouldnt become weak or useless, but other roles would have their places in that game, and a way to ourplay the ADC.

And yes, you are correct in your difference between Assassination and bursting. I would also add, but for that case, I would refere to it as Assassins and Mages, that mages should have more ways to controle the masses, while Assassins should only have small, singel target interruption/slow spells, that weaken their target.

What Pro games use two adc? Are you talking about Lucian mid? Its not even for the crit is because hes a strong early game duelist and can easily punish control mages with skillshots due to his e. That all sounds great on paper but would it be fair that every adc insta-loses to squishes because they only deal %hp damage. League isnt built around counter picks. Riot once stated that they dont want counter picks like what dota has. Other roles do have a place in the game theyre just not as appreciated. Theres a reason why there isnt 5 adc's a game.

Raoul2 votes

Like I already wrote in the previous answer, the exact one you quoted, ADCs would still be able to fight non tanks. How much HP does a normal mage have? below 2k unless he build extra HP, scarificing raw power. Now, how much damage does an ADC deal before we take critical strike into account? About 200.

Lets say, to make it easy, that mages would have 2k HP and ADCs have a normal dmg output of 200 before item effects.

They would still get a little bonus of the %HP dmg they got against that Mundo, or Armor penetration the get against that malphite, so these would not be wasted either.

So, every hit they do would still shred of at least 10% of the mages HP, while they work from a superior range. If they manage to get 9 or 10 hits in, they win. If the mage manages to outplay them before and land his combo, they win. Doesnt that sound like a fair trade?

Ironfield1 votes

{quoted}

Like I already wrote in the previous answer, the exact one you quoted, ADCs would still be able to fight non tanks. How much HP does a normal mage have? below 2k unless he build extra HP, scarificing raw power. Now, how much damage does an ADC deal before we take critical strike into account? About 200.

Lets say, to make it easy, that mages would have 2k HP and ADCs have a normal dmg output of 200 before item effects.

They would still get a little bonus of the %HP dmg they got against that Mundo, or Armor penetration the get against that malphite, so these would not be wasted either.

So, every hit they do would still shred of at least 10% of the mages HP, while they work from a superior range. If they manage to get 9 or 10 hits in, they win. If the mage manages to outplay them before and land his combo, they win. Doesnt that sound like a fair trade?

Why wouldnt adc build flat ad and just burst mages with abilities. If adc build armor pen then thed do almost true damage anyways. So they should just build As & Pen and burst mages that way.

Raoul1 votes

Yeah, that would be another option.

But that is exactly what I wnat to achieve with this change, options. Right now crit is the "one fits all" stat, that makes the ADC kill tanks, burst down mages, farm, secure objectives, poke... literally everything you would every want in your whole career in one singel stat.

A build without crit is not viable, and that in itself is already tellingA LOT about how heatly this stat is.

Ironfield1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that would be another option.

But that is exactly what I wnat to achieve with this change, options. Right now crit is the "one fits all" stat, that makes the ADC kill tanks, burst down mages, farm, secure objectives, poke... literally everything you would every want in your whole career in one singel stat.

A build without crit is not viable, and that in itself is already tellingA LOT about how heatly this stat is.

But theres adc that dont build crit and are viable. Kog, luc, kalista, ez, mf, corki, varus. Crit is not a one stat fits all because crit items provide attack speed and ad. Crit alone is terrible, it requires ad and attack speed to be useful.\

edit: Quinn, graves, urgot. Just thought of them but they arent really adc's (even though theyre listed i think)

Raoul1 votes

{quoted}

[...] crit items provide attack speed and ad. [...]

You literally named the problem here^^

Ironfield1 votes

{quoted}

You literally named the problem here^^

Thats why most crit adc have lower attack speeds like caitlyn and removing crit doesnt diversify builds it just narrows them.

Wráthful1 votes

wasted too much time with a troll post lol. ppl must think before posting how something must be gone that will disbalance the game riot barely keep some kind of balance and u want them to rework 70% of the game mechanics cuz 45% cdr lb just beated u in solo q or u lost a 40 min game cuz enemy adc trashed u all in the last teamfight.

Raoul3 votes

You know, I really silike it when people just assume their own opinion so much better than anyone elses, that they will just discredit any other opinion as trolling.

I mean, what is the point of your post? You didnt broing anything that could start a dialouge, no material for a discussion, you literally wasted a whole post just insulting me... My question would be, why do you feel the need to do so?

I mean, if you took like 10 minutes to read my answers here, you would see that i thought about this pretty well.

You disagree with my points, that is ok, you are allowed to, I am not all-knowing and different opinions are important.

But you also seem to have nothing constructive to add, so I wonder why, if you are not up for a discussion at all, you stop and post insults, instead of just closing this thread and keep on with your business.

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