Do you folks actually want Marksmen to be optional?

Rebonack··20 votes·1,551 views

If yes, are you willing to see Rift take massive, systemic changes to the way XP generation and Tower pushing work?

Because, ultimately, that's what would be required.

As it stands, Marksmen are needed for two major (and one minor) reasons.

  1. Ranged damage against Towers is absolutely required to take them when they're defended. (major)
  2. The duo lane needs a champion in it that scales well with gold, but still functions well with a level disadvantage against solo lanes. (major)
  3. A source of high Physical damage is required to prevent the enemy team from just stacking MR. (minor)

Solving problem 1 either requires some kind of champion specific solution (see Mord) or a complete rework of how Towers are destroyed that makes it transparent to what champion you're using. Probably the simplest solution would be to channel damage at range ala Dominion. A value that scales with level that would allow all champions to push towers with equal safety and effectiveness.

Solving problem 2 would basically mean champions getting full XP on minion death, whether that be a melee champion specific thing or a map-wide thing.

Problem 3 already isn't that huge a deal. Just make sure you have some combination of two AD Fighters/Assassins/Juggies somewhere on the map.

39 Comments

disregardable9 votes

Now try to make a solution where marksmen aren't mandatory but also are viable.

If they don't have a strategic advantage, there's no reason to bring them.

Incognonymous11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Qi8M0Ey,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-10T17:04:52.045+0000)

Now try to make a solution where marksmen aren't mandatory but also are viable.

If they don't have a strategic advantage, there's no reason to bring them.

....you mean like every other class currently experiences?

That's the whole point. In Season 6, strategic viability is going to be an ADC in every lane. This is what Riot wants?

disregardable14 votes

Dude, it's like that on PBE because people just instalock. Give it a week or three after the changes go through, like any new champ release, and it'll be fine. Most people hate playing ADCs.

LordBrasca3 votes

Give them time. It's preseason dude and they have around 2 months to balance everything out.... it's too early to say that season 6 will be dominated by adcs.

planters2 votes

I feel like this could actually be a good first step. we now have a "marksman meta" Now with marksman unquestionably OP they can proceed to nerf them and buff other classes. the best case scenario means they take the EXP mechanic from morde and move it to melee champions in general in a less OP way (maybe keep the lessened EXP when multiple champions are in lane but melee champions get 1/2 the experience back if they kill a minion or something like that). now "marksman mains" cant complain about changes to make them less viable in the bot lane because they are viable at other points on the map. Maybe we can see an IE nerf from 250% crit damage to 225% crit damage so they dont scale so exponentially. hopefully.

CatSith3 votes

Lol you are delusional. ADCS will still vulnerable as they are now, they got ad items buffs, sure. But so did tanks and mages before them. Most of the changes gave them diversity in building crit (FYI Most crit items don't have any AD.) Only a few base AD buffs and some had base ad nerfs also.

Stop being dramatic about the changes and actually read them thoroughly.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

If you actually try to have an adc in every lane, you are going to get rocked by any decent AOE or isolation team comp.

Kuroi862 votes

facepalm IT'S PBE!!! As in testing all of the new changes? Crap, played four games on there tonight, guess who I saw the most of? Go ahead guess! It wasn't ADC anymore, it was Illaoi, Tristana Varus Braum Gragas Hecarim Azir After those champs, then you saw a lot of Marksmen. Why? People are testing out the changes. There is no meta on PBE, people simply test what is new and otherwise just play their favorite champs, trying to apply what happens there to live is about as smart as playing AP Darius

When pre-season hits you're going to see Marksmen everywhere. Why? Because everyone and their brother are wanting to see the changes and figure out what the new meta will be and all their options. When the dust settles a week or two later, you'll see a meta very similar to what it is now, that's it.

Narsicus1 votes

That moment when Tristiana and Varus are no longer adcs.

Rebonack6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Qi8M0Ey,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-10T17:04:52.045+0000)

Now try to make a solution where marksmen aren't mandatory but also are viable.

If they don't have a strategic advantage, there's no reason to bring them.

I'll admit here, I'm coming at this whole thing with the insight of a Dominion player. I rarely get into Rift, but I do scratch my head at the subjects people (constantly) complain about while at the same time offering no constructive suggestions for actually fixing said problems.

Over in Dominion-land, Rangers aren't necessary at all due to problems 1 and 2 being non-issues. The ones that are strongest are the caster-y sorts (Ez, Varus) while the folks that are fairly straight forward auto-attackers (Draven) tend to be a lot weaker by contrast. Vayne being the outlier due to her ability to solo most anyone late game.

I suspect the Ranger retooling (less raw stat power, much higher kit power) is going to make a much wider array of Rangers attractive picks. A Ranger and a beefy CC packing champion roaming around together and murdering stragglers is already a pretty solid strategy and it'll only get stronger.

So I guess what I'm saying is: the Ranger retooling should ideally make Rangers better at what they do best. Safe, reliable, ranged sustained damage. There are only a few Mages who can provide a similar contribution.

Sire Hippington7 votes
  1. isn't that hard to do, and already is done to some extend. the Ap scaleing vs towers has been increased, so mages will be ranged champs dealing damage to towers. Especially with a lichbane, or maybe letting nashors proc vs toers, getting mages to take towers as well, or buff ZZ-rot so the creeps are more tanky, forceing your opponents to leave their towe into an oppem fight so they can take that portal. Add more more anti-tower to some melees, like rammus ult or alistar passive...i think there are enough potentials ways for dealing with the towerpushing.

  2. actually an issue, but not impossible to overvome, maybe with some xp-share on support(gp/10) items, and we already have some mages that scale enough with items and don't need sololane xp. cassio, veigar and azir for example mostly work through items and/or stacks tht aren't bound to xp.

  3. not a problem at all, you always should have a well rounded comp, and there are plenty of physical DDs for other positions

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Qi8M0Ey,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-11-11T03:02:54.741+0000)

  1. isn't that hard to do, and already is done to some extend. the Ap scaleing vs towers has been increased, so mages will be ranged champs dealing damage to towers. Especially with a lichbane, or maybe letting nashors proc vs toers, getting mages to take towers as well, or buff ZZ-rot so the creeps are more tanky, forceing your opponents to leave their towe into an oppem fight so they can take that portal. Add more more anti-tower to some melees, like rammus ult or alistar passive...i think there are enough potentials ways for dealing with the towerpushing.

  2. actually an issue, but not impossible to overvome, maybe with some xp-share on support(gp/10) items, and we already have some mages that scale enough with items and don't need sololane xp. cassio, veigar and azir for example mostly work through items and/or stacks tht aren't bound to xp.

  3. not a problem at all, you always should have a well rounded comp, and there are plenty of physical DDs for other positions

  1. you forgot that RFC is added in the game
  2. isn't a problem, a lot of melee dps only depend on gold
Sire Hippington2 votes
  1. whle they are gold-dependent, they are also level dependent, which hurts them alot in a duo lane. Tryn and Yasuo should be ok, they aren't as level dependent, but for a champ like jax or irelia, beeing underlevelt is a huge issue.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Qi8M0Ey,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-11-11T13:54:36.092+0000)

  1. whle they are gold-dependent, they are also level dependent, which hurts them alot in a duo lane. Tryn and Yasuo should be ok, they aren't as level dependent, but for a champ like jax or irelia, beeing underlevelt is a huge issue.

yi gains nothing with lvl, litteraly doesn't need lvl but gold, same for trynd and yasuo, i don't say that they don't get power with lvl, but that their this power aren't as high as mages's power gained with lvl

jax needs lvl, but Aatrox doesn't need lvl, Rengar doesn't need lvl but just gold to get items and oneshot someone, Nocturne just need items in order to build defense and be able to fight with his steroids,

Sire Hippington2 votes

yi needs E leveled for the ad-scaleing on the truedamage, and alpha has a really long cd till maxed, so no chaining alphas for cleanup early on. it also has has good bas and is his main farming tool, so usually maxed befor E. delaying his power to + lvl 13. AAtrox doesn't need level, nor items, he needs HELP, he's honestly in a rather poor place right now. Noc doesn't necesarryly need levels, but his kit doesn't work all that well in a 2 v 2 early on, makeing the lane pretty hard for him.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Qi8M0Ey,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-11T16:52:26.573+0000)

yi needs E leveled for the ad-scaleing on the truedamage, and alpha has a really long cd till maxed, so no chaining alphas for cleanup early on. it also has has good bas and is his main farming tool, so usually maxed befor E. delaying his power to + lvl 13. AAtrox doesn't need level, nor items, he needs HELP, he's honestly in a rather poor place right now. Noc doesn't necesarryly need levels, but his kit doesn't work all that well in a 2 v 2 early on, makeing the lane pretty hard for him.

yi's AD scaling is 10% at all lvl

Sire Hippington1 votes

the passive, yes, but the active truedamage-sacleing increases per rank, as well as the flat value.

Sasogwa5 votes
  1. isn't minor. You're good with 1 or 2 mr items to shit on any mage. You need at least 3 armor items to somewhat withstand a bit a physical damage carry.
delonix2 votes

The OP argues later in the post that the reason it is minor is because high physical damage champions have become more popular for mid, top, and jungle. If you have a Zed mid and Xin Zhao jungle, the enemy team has to itemize against physical damage whether or not you have a marksman on your team.

Need Gold 4 Tent4 votes

But you can source your damage from other classes, not specifically marksmen. A Yi provides the same (or even more) sustained physical damage than any marksman can provide, given he plays his timing right. Or if you have an extremely heavy AD comp (2 AD bruisers, 1 AD assassin and 1 hard AP carry), it also provides quite enough physical damage to prevent MR stacking, and the AP carry would prevent total armor stacking.

Kuroi861 votes

You need at least 3 armor items to somewhat withstand a bit a physical damage carry.

No... not really. At 170 effective armor you cut physical damage in half despite the % pen mastery and item 3035, and this is on live. Given most tanks start with around 25-30 Ar, this leaves you only needing to pick up 140-145 via items. item 3110 90 item 3742 50 item 3025 60 item 3143 60 item 3068 45 item 3075 100 item 3512 60 item 3047 25

And with most champs having 3 or more Ar per lvl, you can surpass the thresh hold by lvl 6 once you get your second Ar item.

Once pre-season hits, base armor is getting a massive buff with % pen being nerfed into the ground. Meaning late game with between 70-90 base armor, you're going to have near half of your armor be immune to %pen built on items.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

Problem 1: Being solved by Riot with the buffs to tower damage for AP users. Problem 2: Some champs work well. The rare Veigar, Kayle, Azir, Yasuo, and other odd bot lane setups. Problem 3: Yeah, that one isn't too tough to do.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

stop speculating like everyone

making adc optional requier just them to not be pushing machines+teamfight machines+safe laning phase AT THE SAME TIME

you can leave their teamfighting safety, but nerf their early game, just need to buff doran shield's passive (and not stats) or nerfing their base AD. riot already introduced the call for help.

sieging doesn't need any changes, riot buffed mage's damage on towers. if you are full of melee you should lose like in every moba (same in dota 2)

you're pointing out that we need a gold champ is a major problem, guess what?Tryndamere Nocturne Gangplank MasterYi Jax Aatrox Yasuo are all only gold dependant and gains nothing with xp

redniwediS3 votes

if you are full of melee you should lose like in every moba (same in dota 2)

Melee heavy teams that are designed around engaging don't do too poorly. Most teams don't bring enough disengage to handle a fully speced out engage team, and so focusing on finding picks before diving towers, along with a heavy focus on dragon/baron, would make them competitive.

It's far more risk/reward than a standard, more ranged comp but if it hits that reward it will be hard to stop them.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Melee heavy teams that are designed around engaging don't do too poorly. Most teams don't bring enough disengage to handle a fully speced out engage team, and so focusing on finding picks before diving towers, along with a heavy focus on dragon/baron, would make them competitive.

It's far more risk/reward than a standard, more ranged comp but if it hits that reward it will be hard to stop them.

actually, in world someone did this with mordekaiser+ekko, they picked 0 ranged and lost one fight that was going to make them losing because they sacrified themselves to kill the inhib tower. though they won.

ZileanUltJesusOP2 votes

I constantly duo with one of my buddies and we play Darius Xin Zhao Bot and obliterate lanes. You can definitely go without a marksman

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

This works early game but you have to crush the lane and win the game early or you will suffer from problem #1 lategame when ADCs poke your ass to hell when you try to take turrets.

Salidfingers2 votes

Riot needs to stop trying to change the meta through champions. All champions should be focused on balance and the players decide on meta through picks.

My priority is -balance -bug fixes -game play

In the end though a pure adc meta will be countered by a aoe meta if people want to know how to handle it now.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

Laning vs ranged ad is a nightmare. Doran's shield is a joke and you will have to run teleport. Ranged ADs can safely kill you while your minions will not attack them, but if you go aggro, their minions will kill you, while the ADC is kiting. Without summoner spells, it would be probably possible, because once you CC them, they are probably dead, but now you attack, they flash/ use heal, you take tons of creep damage+ they kite from a safe range and you have to go to base for healing while they can freefarm.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Laning vs ranged ad is a nightmare. Doran's shield is a joke and you will have to run teleport. Ranged ADs can safely kill you while your minions will not attack them, but if you go aggro, their minions will kill you, while the ADC is kiting. Without summoner spells, it would be probably possible, because once you CC them, they are probably dead, but now you attack, they flash/ use heal, you take tons of creep damage+ they kite from a safe range and you have to go to base for healing while they can freefarm.

That first one is being addressed with the changes Riot is making to minion calls for help.

And Riot is (sort of) trying to address Problem 1 this season. ADCs are getting more crit and more kit power, but raw AD is dropping by 60-70 late game depending on which ADC you're talking about. At the same time, AP ratios against towers are going up from .4 to .5 Making Nashor's OnHit work against Towers would help seal the deal. So Ranger tower damage down, Mage tower damage up.

Melee carries can work bottom since like Rangers they follow a similar levels vs gold curve, but I suspect the small bump to Mage tower damage still won't be enough to make it so Rangers are as optional as (insert other class here).

Kazaashi2 votes

Because of the role ADC's fill is pretty important in a basic war strategy sense, Riot would have to drastically alter the design of the game to make them optional. I think Riot wants to just give them more options and see how people develop strategies around them.

Think about with lane swaps being so popular in the professional scene. If Riot does it right, I could see teams opting out of the traditional Sup+ADC duo and maybe taking a safe adc solo lane and having a sustained dmg AP carry (Kayle, Azir, etc) who doesn't need levels as much as other APCs. This is just a rough idea, I imagine people with a better grasp of the Professional Meta could come up with better strats. Hopefully you can see where I am going with this.

Baunjo2 votes

Problem 3 doesnt seem like a big deal at all, as you said, mainly because assassins are so common. I dont think I have played a single game in the past 300 games that didnt have an assassin on my team. Mainly because I play them tho xD

9kPluzZ2 votes

to be fair while marksmen are good at pushing towers, Melee ADs tend to be better split pushers. It kinda balances its self out. Melee ads are almost as viable.

Keevalroy2 votes

I would rather have them be borderline mandatory than to have other champs pushed bot lane to force variety (Morde,) I would rather have the situational off-meta pick that someone thought of or decided to roll random and accidentally found a combo that works than to have a rework aggressively push a champion with an established identity to a lane they don't belong in.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that I'm not completely against bot lane diversity, but considering this preseason is going to start off a trainwreck of unbalanceable modifications to the game, it will be that much harder to find a point to balance from should ADCs disappear. When the game has an established and accepted meta, you can fine tune the outliers to not be as strong, or to actually show up if they're absent.

I'm struggling to find a way to form this thought into something coherent, maybe it's too much time right-clicking, but I think that if the meta should change where ADCs aren't in every game, it would be even more difficult to balance it.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Ohmwrecker is still not a very good item.

Mimy1 votes

Even if they were out of meta, i'd still play a marksman...

Hawkefire1 votes

Problem #2 actually isn't the real issue here.

The real problem isn't having a lack of champions that scale better with gold than items (there are actually a very decent amount of champions like that, just look at the average carry top laner)

The true source of the problem is the fact that it is significantly easier to stop a melee champion from harming a ranged champion than it is to stop a ranged champion from harming a melee one. It is also significantly easier to harm a melee champion as a ranged champion than it is to harm a ranged champion as a melee champion.

The average CC heavy support can (fairly easily) peel off nearly any melee champion from their standard ADC, whereas the average CC heavy support generally cannot stop that ranged champion from damaging their melee bot carry.

So generally speaking, the lane is fairly one-sided. With the melee champion getting poked and zoned away from farm because they cannot trade or even interact with their lane opponent because they will simply lose.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Im fine with them as is. This game seems to be hard enough for the potatoes i see playing it, if they also had to play around not having an adc as the nucleus of the team it would be a joke.

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