Dear Jungler, dear support

Hige·Jan 7, 2017·1 votes·568 views

Dear jungler, When bottom lane pushes so hard that the earth shatters, please punish them for overextending.

Do not camp top for a chance to get a teemo fed and do not stay farming in the jungle, players give a lot more gold and experience and I know, I should be faker level at farming under turret but eventually I'll loose at least 1 minion or 2 while the enemy is getting them all because they have no pressure.

Dear support, remember that you are my frontline, I don't care if you are made of paper, if you are behind 100% of the time, don't expect me to last hit perfectly.

25 Comments

ExitarJan 7, 20173 votes

sounds like you need to be a better adc or try a different role

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

This is a fair warning, now, tell me, how do I improve?

KilanostJan 7, 20172 votes

unless you've gone and fed your lane, jg should be all over that. If you fed or they have a zyra/brand support, good luck, see u in 15 minutes.

LimmieJan 7, 20171 votes

Supports are the ones who make or break the botlane, not adcs. Moving out of ADC is good advice though if you're soloing, no point in getting a random (and potentially useless) support when the enemy botlane may be premade.

SGT Dingle BerryJan 7, 20172 votes

OP does have a point though, I can't count how many games I've played bot lane both as support and ADC and literally spent 10 minutes under my tower pinging for help. As someone who plays all 5 roles I always F2-5 to check the status of everyone and it's a junglers wet dream to see a couple idiots pushed up down bot, especially a juicy immobile one like Jinx.

Also he's right about the supp, they should never be behind him, with exceptions pointed out like against an MF sometimes they'll need to be mobile. Even squishies like Janna should do SOMETHING, at the very least time the shields so the ADC doesn't get chunked when going to last hit.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

Thank you! this is what I'm saying, there's no point in staying with your mana bar FULL for the entire duration of the lane, I get it you have to manage it correctly in order to act when you need to but wtf, do something, distract aggro from me from time to time or even steal my cs I don't care, help!

KilanostJan 7, 20171 votes

I can support and take farm? Excellent.

Brutalitops01Jan 7, 20171 votes

Some supports just can't be aggressive. If they're standing in front of you, they'll die. Meanwhile, if you tank the damage, they can either prevent it or heal it back up easily. Janna , for example, can give you a pretty decently sized shield that also grants AD and can use her ult for a massive heal. Soraka can pseudo-tank enemies by letting you tank and then healing you with her W, which costs her own health to use.

These supports create lanes where, sure you have very little kill pressure, but so does the enemy team. You're free to do pretty much whatever you want because they'll protect you, as long as you don't be too stupid. And when you play with them, you need to pick ADCs who are relatively self-sufficient in terms of poking and trading. MissFortune is a very good example. Her Q bounce with the crit if it kills the first target is an absolutely HUGE amount of poke, especially in lane phase. I have hit people with the Q bounce crit for around half their health with only a BF Sword.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

the healer thing I know, they try to shield damage unsuccesfully though which is kind of funny, but I was talking mostly about Thresh and braum and those who are a bit more tanky than usual, I don't want them to be aggressive, I want them to be at the frontline or if anything, by my side, being 700 units away from the minions and your adc is... well, I don't even know, I could indeed fall back with them but them I would loose CS, and you´d think that loosing a couple cs for staying alive is worth but what do I do when the support is 100% of the time so far behind that it feels like I'm laning completely alone? ._.

Brutalitops01Jan 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

the healer thing I know, they try to shield damage unsuccesfully though which is kind of funny, but I was talking mostly about Thresh and braum and those who are a bit more tanky than usual, I don't want them to be aggressive, I want them to be at the frontline or if anything, by my side, being 700 units away from the minions and your adc is... well, I don't even know, I could indeed fall back with them but them I would loose CS, and you´d think that loosing a couple cs for staying alive is worth but what do I do when the support is 100% of the time so far behind that it feels like I'm laning completely alone? ._.

Now, for things like Thresh and Braum, you would expect they would be a bit more forward and aggressive. Braum, for example, can tank any damage they throw at you with Unbreakable like it's nothing. Thresh standing further away could be understandable if he wants to be a bit more passive in lane and just lantern you out if they engage, but on the other hand he could also hook the enemy ADC, flay, and start hitting them with basic attacks if he's standing further forward. Thresh and Braum are the kind of supports that you really don't want to be standing behind your ADC with. The ADC will typically just get killed.

Now, as for the jungler, while I agree that the right play for him was to come bot lane and punish them for pushing, I also do agree that you shouldn't expect this of him. I'm not sure what rank you are, but I don't think that the majority of junglers start becoming competent at punishing people for pushing until like plat or diamond. I know they certainly don't do it in bronze/silver games. All you really can do in that situation is last hit under turret and try to keep your cs up. If you can keep it near or above your opponent's and you don't give them kills, you will come out of the lane with a similar or greater amount of gold compared to them. You also need to keep your turret alive, because if it drops and they get that first blood gold, you instantly fall pretty far behind in gold. Me, I used to main Twitch, but I stopped being able to consistently win with him and ADC in general as bot lane became the bot lane party META it is currently, so I've stopped playing ADC as a whole for now. Maybe I'll come back to it when I'm not getting turret dove by the enemy mid laner and jungler at level 4 anymore. Until then, I'll queue mid/jungle and play Kat and Ekko mid and Hecarim and Shyvana jungle.

One tip I hear actually good players say sometimes is to get all the CS that it's safe to get. Aim for 10 CS per minute, but you won't always be able to get that safely. If you want to make sure you can keep up in gold in a bad lane, pick up a Cull. The life on hit will help you stay in lane longer and it gives you bonus gold for CSing, +1 per minion with a +350 gold payout after 100 (making the item and its stats literally free if you can farm it up all the way and giving you a net gain in gold when you sell it). You shouldn't pick it up first item, but it's certainly better than a double Doran's Blade if you would otherwise buy that.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

thanks for the advice man! I haven´t thought about a cull, when I go back and I have very little gold I've never considered that one, but I think you got a point there!

As for rank, well yeah I'm pretty low currently so maybe I shouldn't expect much from them... what really bothers me is them mocking my cs when it's more than obvious the reason why I'm behind.

Brutalitops01Jan 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

thanks for the advice man! I haven´t thought about a cull, when I go back and I have very little gold I've never considered that one, but I think you got a point there!

As for rank, well yeah I'm pretty low currently so maybe I shouldn't expect much from them... what really bothers me is them mocking my cs when it's more than obvious the reason why I'm behind.

I'm also pretty low, but I've never really focused on climbing. These are just things that I see diamond/challenger level players and even pros talking about all the time on YouTube and try to apply to my own games when I can.

KilanostJan 7, 20171 votes

Don't buy cull 2nd item ESPECIALLY if ur already behind. cull will delay your power spikes putting you even further behind while you farm it up. Cull is a buy for a winning lane.

KilanostJan 7, 20171 votes

The bot lane party meta you're talking about (and i agree it kind of exists) happens for a few reasons:

1.) bot lane is the biggest offender when it comes to over extending...this draws attention from everyone. 2.) bot lane also tends to have the most feeding which makes for an easier first blood turret (Nothing more rewarding that getting spam pinged for "stealing" your adc's turret first blood gold). 3.) bot lanes is by drag. Gotta clean house before heading to the drag pit.
4.) Bot lanes are at least 50% squishy. With Lee Sin being such a high pick rate champion and given his retarded level of mobility, it makes for an easy dive. 5.) Must kill vayne. fuck vayne.

If you're getting your ass kicked bot, back with your supp and rush midlane and hope you can take first turret before they do. Sometimes, if the situation is shit enough, the best thing you can do is just abandon your turret and try to make a play somewhere else.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

1.) bot lane is the biggest offender when it comes to over extending...this draws attention from everyone.

this SHOULD draw attention from everyone, what's the use of getting pushed in like this and showing them mercy????? oh but the jungler is busy in top and mid, you gotta respect how he plays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KilanostJan 7, 20171 votes

I'm not going anywhere near a 6/0 enemy bot lane with cc. The only time a decent jungler avoids a constantly over extended enemy bot lane is when they'd just die if they ganked. Before I gank bot, i always look at what the feed/farm situation is down there. Its not like top or mid where usually it just being a 2v1 is enough. If your botlane really screws the pooch before jg can get there to even things out, the lane is dead. Plays then need to be made elsewhere to offset the power differential.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

this is understandable, if I have died repeatedly from getting dove or something, I get it, help other lane... but, if the enemy bot is pushing HARD since the beggining and no one has died, everything is 0/0/0 for 10 minutes straight....... man....... really?

KilanostJan 7, 20171 votes

Yea thats bad but sometimes its also just bad luck too. Way too often i'll see a lane pushed out and be on the other side of the map when they push, work my way over, and by the time they get there, theres no real opportunity for a gank because they've either killed my laners, backed, or rotated. If i take too much damage along that trip for whatever reason I also can't gank well. If my laners are and 1/3 health and the enemy laners are full health, i've hesitant to gank that too.

AptestJan 7, 20171 votes

if you don't help you're gonna have a fed vayne on your hands later on. you wanna ignore? your choice to lose the game.

otoh... yeah if bot lane is getting smacked you'd better grab mid and come together. coming alone in this situation is futile

KilanostJan 7, 20171 votes

Bot lane rarely decides the game unless it goes late. If my botlane has already proven they can't carry, i'm going to get top and mid fed.

In reality, its better to realize you're not going to hold the lane, and just rotate mid with your support and hope you 3 (or 4 with jg) can take mid turret before you lose bot. The longer you stay in lane, the bigger that cs differential is going to get and the more kills you're gonig to give up. The issue is that ADCs dont like to leave the lane because thats where they get their farm....even if its the better decision for the team.

Brutalitops01Jan 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The bot lane party meta you're talking about (and i agree it kind of exists) happens for a few reasons:

1.) bot lane is the biggest offender when it comes to over extending...this draws attention from everyone. 2.) bot lane also tends to have the most feeding which makes for an easier first blood turret (Nothing more rewarding that getting spam pinged for "stealing" your adc's turret first blood gold). 3.) bot lanes is by drag. Gotta clean house before heading to the drag pit.
4.) Bot lanes are at least 50% squishy. With Lee Sin being such a high pick rate champion and given his retarded level of mobility, it makes for an easy dive. 5.) Must kill vayne. fuck vayne.

If you're getting your ass kicked bot, back with your supp and rush midlane and hope you can take first turret before they do. Sometimes, if the situation is shit enough, the best thing you can do is just abandon your turret and try to make a play somewhere else.

I know why the bot lane party happens, but seriously? Why am I getting partied on when I've been under my turret the other game? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

The biggest reason why I think the bot lane party happens is because that turret first blood is the easiest. Bot tower doesn't have Fortification, which makes turrets take 50% less damage before the 5 minute mark, and all other turrets do. So you have a Jinx down there and I'm gonna expect to get dove pre-5 minutes and get that turret dropped in a single wave because Jinx can literally (I've seen her do it) take my turret 100-0 in a single wave because I based without killing her first.

As mentioned, I moved to mid lane because fuck this bot lane party META. I'll go mid, play Kat, kill you the instant you overextend a bit after level 2, push the wave into turret, go bot, kill them, push and try to take their turret. I do this pretty much every game and it puts everyone on such a snowball that we just become impossible to deal with.

AptestJan 7, 20172 votes

that is not true.

if the support is keeping himself behind the adc all the time than the support is not taking up space in the lane.

if the support is not taking up space in the lane than the enemy support moves up and the adc is attacked from two sides.

if the adc is attacked from two sides he can't avoid damage effectively and also the support cant retaliate against trades effectively.

this result in all trades going heavily in favor of the other team and no amount of Soraka can deal with this kind of damage.

which is why you see good sorakas moving up and trading constantly. because that pushes the opposing team back and creates "space" for the adc to react by limiting the angles of attack on the ADC.

as a support in the lane phase you need to pressure the other team. Maybe not to the extent that you push the lane, but certainly to the extent that they do not feel comfortable flanking the ADC and zoning him.

If you position yourself absolutely behind the ADC and take the "you do laning, I'll shield from behind" road, the ADC will absolutely get zoned if the enemy team has the brains.

@HIGE: the support is not "your front line". you are the equally front line in lane phase. The support is supposed to form a single line with you (in an even situation). Unless you are in a defensive or aggressive posture in which case this changes.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

Thank you ;_; I'm crying, I thought I was crazy

ExitarJan 7, 20171 votes

personally I view each game as "I'm going to have to carry this" no matter what my role is. I find that by thinking I won't have a team to depend on I play better and when I do have team members to depend on it's a great bonus. As for improving it's hard to say how you'd improve with out seeing what you're doing that could be improved upon.

HigeJan 7, 20171 votes

I'm pretty sure that my trading in lane is pretty bad, I'm bad at disengaging mid fight... or folllowing up x_x, like it's hard to read what someone (support) has on their mind, if I stay I might end up dying because I overstayed and if I leave I get flamed for being a puss... more often the not is the latter though, I try to explain that my only defense is my range but... well... there's no use