The sad thing about the whole morde situration

Miudmon·Oct 15, 2015·131 votes·3,309 views

is that given his current state of balance, its VERY likely that they'll just gut him then leave him there forevermore, like they did with cassio.

because of couuuurse they cant admit their faults

56 Comments

BastionKrossOct 15, 201518 votes

I don't know. I mean traditionally Riot would most likely nerf the hell out of him for being a problem and leave him to languish entire seasons until his rework.

Yorick Urgot Evelynn "We've kept the bench warm for you, Morde. Join us. Join us."

But on the other hand, this is a CertanlyT champion, and at Riot a CertainlyT champion must never be irrelevant for any extended length of time. Unless you're Zyra , of course.

So it'll be interesting to see these two horrible traditions Riot has directly conflict with each other. It's like watching Freddy vs Jason; you know the winner is going to kill you, so you have to root for them to kill each other.

manbearswineOct 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know. I mean traditionally Riot would most likely nerf the hell out of him for being a problem and leave him to languish entire seasons until his rework.

"We've kept the bench warm for you, Morde. Join us. Join us."

But on the other hand, this is a CertanlyT champion, and at Riot a CertainlyT champion must never be irrelevant for any extended length of time. Unless you're , of course.

So it'll be interesting to see these two horrible traditions Riot has directly conflict with each other. It's like watching Freddy vs Jason; you know the winner is going to kill you, so you have to root for them to kill each other.

So it will just be zyra and morde instead of just zyra,I don't see the problem here.

BastionKrossOct 16, 20152 votes

Zyra is only partly a CerT champion, Morde is now almost completely CerT's baby.

And CerT's babies do not grow up to be irrelevant.

manbearswineOct 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zyra is only partly a CerT champion, Morde is now almost completely CerT's baby.

So is zed,besides,if I remember correctly certainlyT was behind the zyra nerfs which placed her where she is now.

And CerT's babies do not grow up to be irrelevant.

I think it's tied to them being overloaded out of their ass,which zyra and morde aren't. Tbh I think morde being nerfed to shit and left to rot is the most likely outcome of what's going on currently,even though I'm not entirely certain that will happen.

TugloschOct 15, 20157 votes

you're wrong. before they leave him to be they are gonna nerf him. until the only thing he compared to before are AD scalings and the dragon. the XP won't matter anymore when he reached that point.

they didn't adress any of his problems, they just gave him other and more effective scalings which is plain bs

MiraweaveOct 15, 20155 votes

You act like Cassiopeia is weak lol.

MiudmonOct 15, 201542 votes

[{quoted}](name=ME AM SMART,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=17r4m2H3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-15T08:09:28.970+0000)

You act like Cassiopeia is weak lol.

she's certainly worse than before her initial rework, with less pickrate AND winrate

Zair UmbrasOct 15, 20153 votes

False. Pre-rework, she was actually garbage since her Q didn't have a static explosion delay and it usually gave you pleeeeeeeeenty of time to walk out of it without any boots. Her rework nerfed her numbers initially then a patch or two later, they fixed her Q's lack of reliability and she became broken as hell because her entire issue was that she couldn't be relied on... at all.

SaiannaOct 15, 201525 votes

At least Q dealt damage. and so did W.

Now?

E till you break your fingers.

NarasimhaOct 15, 20152 votes

Honestly? That was part of the problem. You can't have a strong AoE DOT. That's just obnoxious. Makes it even worse when it has bonus effects attached to it.

SaiannaOct 15, 201524 votes

No it isn't obnoxious.

You just dislike it.

So.. You think what Cass is currently (1 ability & ultimate) is fine? 2 of her abilities right now are just means to keep her E working.

Btw do you know what Obnoxious means? Or you just throw it here cause you heard it alot of times on boards whenever someone tried to devalue others arguments/opinions?

Here:

Obnoxious

highly objectionable or offensive; odious: obnoxious behavior.
annoying or objectionable due to being a showoff or attracting undue attention to oneself: an obnoxious little brat.
Archaic. exposed or liable to harm, evil, or anything objectionable.
Obsolete. liable to punishment or censure; reprehensible.

NarasimhaOct 15, 20152 votes

The base definition of obnoxious is simply this: "extremely unpleasant."

So yes, that does fit. I've played many rpgs, mmo and otherwise, and most if not all of the major MOBAs. There is a reason that AoE DOTS are extremely limited in their nature and effects. They pose a lose-lose scenario for the opponent, to either be zoned away from their actions, or to take damage that becomes hard to escape from while also being hard to detect. People notice giant fireballs headed their way, and the chunk it takes out of your health. It's much much harder to detect and respond to the pool of poison by your feet. One of the best example I've seen is DoTA 2's Venomancer. He has two AOE DoT abilities, one with a slow, and his ultimate that is one of the most damaging in the game. However, the damage of the slowing one is extremely weak, to where regeneration can almost mitigate it at early levels. And the ultimate literally has the condition of being unable to kill anything by itself.

More to the point, it's a hard balance to strike. Do I think Cass needs some more work done? Absolutely. Do I think she's unhealthy? Yup, her playstyle is too "39 minutes useless" -> "40 minutes streamroller". But I also firmly and completely believe that her old playstyle of fire and forget had no place either.

And finally,

Btw do you know what Obnoxious means? Or you just throw it here cause you heard it alot of times on boards whenever someone tried to devalue others arguments/opinions?

I GUARANTEE I have more boards/forum experience than you and many others. Not everyone likes to stand out like Laughing Fish.

SouL1essOct 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The base definition of obnoxious is simply this: "extremely unpleasant."

So yes, that does fit. I've played many rpgs, mmo and otherwise, and most if not all of the major MOBAs. There is a reason that AoE DOTS are extremely limited in their nature and effects. They pose a lose-lose scenario for the opponent, to either be zoned away from their actions, or to take damage that becomes hard to escape from while also being hard to detect.

Honestly sounds like a L2P issue. You failed to notice or know how much damage can specific DoT skills do, and you die. That has nothing to do with the nature of the skill, that is just the player failing to respect the skill because the effects are plain.

Rubber JesusOct 16, 20151 votes

That AOE poison be showing off, gurl. Better watch out: it's got some Gucci heels, a fake tan, and an attitude that will make Kim Kardashian look like a humble and sweet girl next door.

ZéychinOct 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Honestly? That was part of the problem. You can't have a strong AoE DOT. That's just obnoxious. Makes it even worse when it has bonus effects attached to it.

Meanwhile, Malzahar has the strongest AoE DoT in the game:

Null Zone: Malzahar creates a zone of negative energy for 5 seconds, dealing magic damage every second to all enemies standing on it, capped at 120 against minions and monsters.

「 MAGIC DAMAGE PER SECOND: 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8% (+ 1% per 100 AP) of target's maximum health 」

and to name a few other strong AOE DoTs:

Anivia's Glacial Storm, Amumu's Despair, Brand's Blaze, Rumble's Flamespitter, Rumble's The Equalizer, Darius's Hemorrhage, Fiddlesticks Crowstorm, Garen Judgement, Heimerdinger's H-28G Evolution Turrets, Heimerdinger's UPGRADE!!!-d H-28G Evolution Turret, Karthus's Defile, Katarina's Death Lotus, Kayle's Righteous Fury, Morgana's Tormented Soil, Nasus's Spirit Fire, Pantheon's Heartseeker Strike, Rammus's Tremors, Singed's Poison Trail, Swain's Ravenous Flock, Teemo's Noxious Traps, Vel'Koz's Life Form Disintegration Ray, Viktor's Chaos Storm, Vladimir's Sanguine Pool, Volibear's Thunder Claws, Wukong's Cyclone, Yorick's entire kit, Zyra's plants.

Slamurai JackOct 15, 20152 votes

Some of those aren't even AOE DOT's but even if they were, there's still a significant difference. Cass's q is very hard to dodge and does the full DOT damage to you if you get hit by it at all but nearly every example you gave stops damaging you the moment you move out of the AOE. Malzahar has the strongest AOE DoT in the game but the only way it actually does meaningful damage to you is if you get CC'ed while standing on it. Old Cass's nonstop Q harass was dumb as hell although the machine gun E was have now is hardly better.

Zair UmbrasOct 15, 20151 votes

She's always had the machine gun E on top of the Q spam, though pre-rework, landing the Q was pure luck since the explosion delay was anywhere between .3s and .7s.

NarasimhaOct 15, 20152 votes

Do note that most of those aren't DoTs. A DoT, in the classic game sense, is essentially 'One spell, multiple ticks of damage." In this case, it means being hit by a DoT means you get hit by ALL the damage. Once it hits you, you can't dodge the rest of the damage. Brand's Blaze is the best example. Everything else is damage per second, which is different. If you move out of Death Lotus or Chaos Storm, it will stop damaging you. Once you're hit by Cass's Q or W, however, you will take the full damage of it regardless of your actions, baring going invulnerable. Note that for Cass's W, by the way, the duration is 2 seconds of DoT, which is refreshed if you stay in the cloud.

But to reiterate the point, other than Blaze, Noxious Traps, and Poison Trail, nothing you've mentioned is a DoT. Hell, I'm not even sure why you think Thunder Claws, Evolution turrets, or Zyra's plants are DoTs.

Edit: See, if basic LOGIC like this is getting downvoted, then how do you expect Riot to listen to you guys at all? Kinda feels like Morde isn't getting any help at this rate.

Reckless HeirOct 16, 20151 votes

What about Anivia? They should remove her aoe eh?

NarasimhaOct 16, 20151 votes

Still not a DoT. If you move outside of the blizzard, it stops damaging you IMMEDIATELY. No after effects, no extra damage. There is a huge difference between a Damage over Time ability and a Damage per Second ability. I'm beginning to suspect that people don't actually know this.

And hell, I'm of the opinion that it needs to be buffed. She should, at the least, be able to keep it running during a Zhonya's. But that's not

Zair UmbrasOct 15, 20151 votes

No, you never used W or Q for damage pre-rework. You mashed your face on E. You always mashed your face your E. There was never a time you didn't mash your face on E. Her old passive told you mash your face on E ffs. lol.

SaiannaOct 16, 20152 votes

Yes, I did.

That was the whole point of me playing Cassiopeia. I know this isn't PRO-like, but who cares? I had lots of fun using only Q & W! I didn't spam E's.. It wasn't fun for me at all. To the point where I'd use E maybe few times trough whole game. And FYI even though i didn't use E i still won lots of games with Cassio. Don't give me that "low elo/noob-tier" arguments. Both sides had fun and that was all that was important.

Now you might see why I'm so annoyed with this rework.. They have destroyed my playstyle. Totally.

Zair UmbrasOct 16, 20151 votes

IF all you did was press Q and W and run away, then no, you shouldn't be annoyed. That playstyle was exactly the toxic playstyle that needed to be removed. It had about a 900 range of toss and forget without repercussion if you missed and had a huge reward if you hit while being a 4s CD without CDR. It was a low risk and high reward. Well, it was more like 0 risk for half lifing people. It was far more spammable than the old Nidalee spear and did just as much with about the same amount safety and frequency of hitting.

SaiannaOct 16, 20151 votes

But have in mind that any hard engage on me meant pretty much free kill for enemy.

There are lots of different kinds of players and as many playstyles. You cannot remove 1 just because you believe it's "against" fun. Riot could have nerfed Cass range. Wouldn't that be a good fix? Allowing her to posion while creating risk of doesng so?

It's like saying [this is just EXTREME example] "all black people have to die, because they aren't white like me". You shouldn't force players to follow exactly 1 path and call it diversity.

As I mentioned before While playing posion-Cassiopeia I was very fragile to hard engages. Posion-Cass has little to no power to fight ina long battle. And I was always losing against "balls of steel" enemies. Don't you think that's pretty good balance?

Hit'n'run cassio (me) wins vs passive players passive players win vs aggresive players aggresive players win vs me

It's full circle and just so happens there are by far more passive players in silver than aggresive ones. Other way around my whole poison-build would be pointless, as I'd always lose.

Zair UmbrasOct 16, 20151 votes

That's... That's not how that works. You can still beat aggressive players since no matter what you build to make Poison Cass hurt, you still were able to spam E since after her rework, her E's cost was INCREASED and the damage is the exact same as it was before. Literally, Cass's rework made her passive useful and reduced the damage her poisons did. That's... That's it. And it was more of a ratio change than bases. W was reduced since in a prolonged team fight, having anyone stand in it at all meant certain death and her Q had an 80% ratio and 280ish base on top of a .5s CD .55 ratio E.

Old Cass had one downside at it was a downside that made her near pointless to play and that was reliability. Champions who have 0 reliability are never played. Katarina is a good example. When she's at her prime, she's destroying teams, but put in a CC or two that's easy to land and Kat loses reliability and is now worthless. Same goes for Yasuo in a certain way. No knock ups and his reliability is subpar and he can't keep up, but you give him the reliable knock up and his power is through the roof. Cass got her reliability in the form of a new passive and her Q getting a more static delay rate, allowing her to be able to hit the targets often and go in for the kill. They removed her kill potential on her Fishing Tool so to speak. She's a snake. A Snake Mage. Snakes wait for the right time then go in for the kill, they don't spit poison, walk away, spit some more, walk away, spit more, walk away... No. The spitting Cobra spits and then goes for the kill and Cass is a prime example of such a snake.

Cass works on aggressive players just like she always has since if they jump at her, she pops Archangel's and R and rips people apart. Before, she'd R, toss her Q and W and walk away without even thinking about it. No thoughts at all. There was no real counterplay since QSS didn't have a 2s Cd like her Q did. Her new kit has weaknesses and takes time to ramp up to her real power rather than throwing a Q at any point in the game and watching the enemy's health go from 100 to 0 without putting forth any kind of effort let alone using any mana.

AbyssphereOct 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=17r4m2H3,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-15T13:51:23.822+0000)

False. Pre-rework, she was actually garbage since her Q didn't have a static explosion delay and it usually gave you pleeeeeeeeenty of time to walk out of it without any boots. Her rework nerfed her numbers initially then a patch or two later, they fixed her Q's lack of reliability and she became broken as hell because her entire issue was that she couldn't be relied on... at all.

And then they nerfed her and her stats suggest that she's now weaker than she was pre-rework. Cass with an unreliable Q pre-rework was actually stronger than current Cass.

Zair UmbrasOct 15, 20151 votes

They nerfed her kit because there's new items and her new passive is a million times better. Prior, if you had Rabs, Rylai's, Archangel's, and a Void, you could only get up to about 500 AP because Archangel's was down 20 AP and so was Rylai's. NOW you can get up to 800-1k AP with her passive with those exact same items on top of a free 25% CDR. People already mashed their face on E pre-rework and post-rework. People seem to think her rework made her into a machine gun when in reality, she's always been one. They nerfed her poisons because she was given a buff to the reliability of them on top of 30% AP and 25% CDR as a passive.

ZaghyrOct 16, 20151 votes

oh look another boardsman basing champion power on pickrate and winrate instead of why the champion is ACTUALLY powerful

EedatOct 15, 201523 votes

She is weak.

Extremely high risk, mediocre reward

fééd l0rdOct 15, 20153 votes

where the hell is she weak? yes she is high reward but she got played all summer long in the lcs. she and azir are shredding through tanks.. i bet you are on of those guys thinking azir is now weak after all those nerfs.

you should not pick cassio or azir into veigar btw. cassiopeia has a great ultimate, zoning tools and sustained damage in teamfights. ''mediocre reward'' dont make me laugh pal.

CHOPSTICKUHHOct 15, 20154 votes

I agree, cass is not weak at all, I've been 25/5/3 with her last week. She has amazing damage a passive to ampliphy it and constant harass with one ult you can get a double kill, I've done it, I've seen it, she's not weak at all lol

MooninitesOct 15, 201510 votes

Your score is irrelevant to how strong a champion is. I've gone 10/0/3 on cinderhulk fiddlesticks and forced a surrender at 20 minutes. Does that mean cinderhulk fiddlesticks is good? Absolutely not, he's terrible, it just means the people I was playing against were bad.

Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions since her release, I absolutely love her, but she's considerably weaker than she was before her rework. So much of the damage from her kit was frontloaded onto her Twin Fang (E) that it made her other abilities, Miasma and Noxious Blast, accessories to Twin Fang. She used to be very effective at zoning and poking and then suddenly she became a mid-range mage with no mobility. That in the current meta and the way the game has evolve is very bad.

The reason why she was picked so much in the spring split is because her base damage was good enough that it made her weak early game survivable. Her late game is fantastic, no doubt about that, but now that she's so easy to punish and she has so many inherent weaknesses, she really falls off as a strong champion

Ulquiorra995Oct 15, 20152 votes

Let's take a look at her rework: primary reason, according to Riot, was that she was too much of a lane bully. So they turned her into an E bot with a stupid gimmick that no one really liked, and a really weak one at that. So naturally, instead of admitting that they made a mistake and actually trying to fix her, they simply buffed the shit out of her and soon had to nerf her - because she was too much of a lane bully. Which brings us to the same problem she and Morde share - a rework that does not solve champion's problems or create bigger ones is entirely pointless.

BrascusOct 15, 20153 votes

If only RiotRepertoir was in charge, he'd have the ballsy humility to be frank about it

Slamurai JackOct 15, 20152 votes

I'd rather have a gutted version of this Morde than the gutted version of old Morde that we had before. At least this Morde would provide an interesting strategic niche against anti-carry and dive teams. Old Morde was never worth picking from a strategic standpoint if his numbers were garbage.

Chespin2013Oct 15, 20158 votes

You obviously never played the old Morde at all so please do us all a favor and keep your uneducated opinions out of here k thxs.

Slamurai JackOct 15, 20152 votes

I played him enough to know that he was basically a joke champion on par with the like of pre-rework Garen and Darius. There was no good reason to ever pick old Morde unless he was overtuned and beating him was as easy as ganking him over and over early game until he's completely useless. Old Morde was an underloaded piece of garbage held down even more with bad stats because of his toxic kit. Stop defending him.

Chespin2013Oct 15, 20156 votes

I'll never give up on my metal man no matter what you or riot says. I can tell from many of your post you have no idea what your talking about. You don't speak for Mordekaiser or his fans so please stop acting like you do. Stop defending your lover CertainlyT since I know your a Yasuo main and I can bet you would defend Yasuo on any boards addressing him as a problematic champion. Every champion speaks to a person and Morde spoke to me and many people too. He wasn't a champion that used his mobility to get what he wanted, He wasn't a champion that had CC to catch up to a enemy that he wanted clobber. No he was a champion that fought out in the fray and not give a fuck with how many dashes or knockups you could do he'll just smash your samurais face in with his mace and make you his slave to fight against your allies. This rework was a failure on CertainlyT and on Riot for their incompetence and they need to be called out on it and be made accountable for lying to their player base. Understand that me and many other people are voicing our concerns on controversial topics the whole purpose of the existence of the boards in the first place. Come back when you have a more educated opinion.

Slamurai JackOct 15, 20152 votes

I want to know which part I said was wrong. Old Morde was nothing but a stats check with almost no meaningful interaction since he's manaless, has no skillshots to play around, gains defense for building offense, had no CC or gap closer to use, and simply pushes and pushes all day until a jungler came to stop him. If you weren't one of the champions that could overpower Morde in a 1v1 scenario, you were resigned to farming under your tower the entire game and simply walked away if he ever tried to fight you. Old Morde was one of the worst designed champions Riot ever created and had to be intentionally kept undertuned because of how bad his design was.

And please, your metal man? You haven't played 1 ranked game of him the past 2 seasons. That's pretty suspicious for a Morde enthusiast. Face it, Old Morde was a toxic champion purely by design and the only reason his toxicity hasn't been blatantly obvious the past couple of years was because Riot intentionally kept him weak. Old Morde is gone and good riddance; Let him stay in the trash where he belongs with old Sion, Old Gangplank, and (soon to be) Old Poppy.

KeevalroyOct 16, 20152 votes

Old Morde was one of the worst designed champions Riot ever created and had to be intentionally kept undertuned because of how bad his design was.

Sounds like Yasuo with his awful crit passive.

And please, your metal man? You haven't played 1 ranked game of him the past 2 seasons. That's pretty suspicious for a Morde enthusiast.

Because playing your favorite champion in ranked means everything.

Old Morde is gone and good riddance; Let him stay in the trash where he belongs with old Sion, Old Gangplank, and (soon to be) Old Poppy.

And if your cancerous piece of fuck Yasuo got reworked into something undesirable, you'd throw a fit because you're an oblivious fanboy.

TugloschOct 15, 20153 votes

"if his numbers were garbage"... so now, as his numbers are inreased it's better? will there have been any improvement once his numbers are down again?

Slamurai JackOct 15, 20151 votes

Yes, there will. Morde will be infinitely more healthy as a bot laner than he could ever be as a solo laner if Riot insists on keeping his no CC, no gap closer kit. Solo lane Morde was nothing more than a stat check. Morde either won or lost the 1v1 with no room to outplay mechanically from either side because his kit is so underloaded and braindead. Going botlane gives his teammates opportunities to make plays for him and adds another lane opponent against him that he's forced to interact with. Clearly new Morde is overtuned atm and some of his design concepts may need to change but the idea of Morde as a bot lane carry and not a solo laner is infinitely better and gives infinitely more room to balance that his solo laning days ever did. Solo lane Morde was either broken or terrible. Bot lane Morde at least has a chance of striking balance.

JediSenpaiNPOct 15, 20153 votes

"Solo lane Morde was nothing more than a stat check."

Aight, so here's the thing. Solo lane morde liked numbers, but even without buffed up stats, he could be valued as a pusher. bot lane morde is not. Instead, he is walking numbers, hence x2, x3. Everything new morde does is just "muh numbers."

"Morde either won or lost the 1v1 with no room to outplay mechanically from either side because his kit is so underloaded and braindead"

Wait wait wait. Are you telling me that bot lane morde, the literal 3 hit Q, doesnt even do this worse?

"Solo lane Morde was either broken or terrible. Bot lane Morde at least has a chance of striking balance."

Don't get me wrong, Solo lane morde, as much fun as i had playing him, he was slightly toxic. Not broken really, but toxic. HOWEVER, bot lane morde is even moreso. With old morde, while i do agree his old kit needed a slight rework, forcing all the power into one skill, of which you are almost assured to die is NOT more healthy than a pusher who could be still forced down if he wasn't ahead. bot lane morde has less of a chance to strike balance than solo. At least solo lane morde was less binary than 3 Q, win game.

Slamurai JackOct 15, 20151 votes

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. All old Morde ever did was push, walk up, use his undodgeable E on you, and then use his other skills if you tried to retaliate. New Morde not only has to be right next to you to do meaningful damage but has to charge up his Q to really get his damage rolling. New Morde's 3 Q system provides infinitely more opportunities for meaningful interaction than old Morde's E spam ever did; If you can stall out Morde's 3rd Q long enough for it to time out, you now have a significant period of time where you can wail on him with little threat to yourself.

JediSenpaiNPOct 15, 20152 votes

But how is that more opportunity for interaction? Wait out singular spell, GG WP. Get hit, GG WP. its 1 opportunity. The reason pushing morde was ok was because with all his pushing came extreme risks of being ganked. With every wave, you went deeper in the dungeon, so to speak. Literally this morde is a more binary version of old morde. Kite old morde, or manage to outbruiser him, which i will admit was rare, and you beat him. but this is also kite morde and abuse his melee. just like kite morde and abuse the e range. Not only that, old morde, while e was a major staple, the kit as a whole was used. You could use everything well together. now, we don't have more of a kit. The opportunity of interactions hasn't actually changed very much at all, but instead provides even for the enemy and LESS for the actual morde player.

Zair UmbrasOct 15, 20151 votes

But.. Cass is fine.

TeslynOct 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=17r4m2H3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-10-15T13:49:25.789+0000)

But.. Cass is fine.

Cass is a niche champ now.. she is either feast or famine..

ahferroin7Oct 16, 20151 votes

No the really sad thing is that at worlds, he's been banned or played in more than 90% of the games, and has not lost a single game he's been played in, and they still don't appear to care.