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How to make Wit's End more widely attractive

Rebonack·Dec 4, 2016·3 votes·526 views

From a guy who builds it way too often.

First, a bit of history. Wit's used to be super-cheap and it didn't shred MR. Lots of Bruisers loved it. Then it got MR shred and its price went up by no small amount. Suddenly it isn't so attractive since the range of champs who can take advantage of that MR shred is much more narrow.

So! How do we fix this? Well, I've seen three really great options.

Option the first: Remove the MR shred and give it ramping magic damage OnHit instead. Same general effect (attack more to do more damage) but now it's useful of champions who don't care about the MR shred. Yay!

Option the second: Add at least two new items to the game; sister items to Wit's End. Have one build from + and the other build from . Give them passives (or actives!) that all reinforce each other in some capacity so that all three together make for a tanky force of reckoning.

Option the third: Replace the in Wit's End with and make it steal up to 25 armor AND magic resist. This would make it attractive to Bruisers regardless of what kind of damage they predominantly deal.

17 Comments

xShiNjiNxDec 4, 20162 votes

Why wouldn't you just give it AP? You realize in most cases people who can get wits end opt for better options. item 3153 item 3124 item 3146 item 3115 Your suggestions arnt very fitting. If you gave it AP at least champions like Kayle Teemo Jax Diana etc would give it more consideration when looking for an attack speed item to boost their Magic Damage auto attacks. Though it would make it very hard to balance for the same reason.. Having all that power in 1 item is kinda nuts.

RebonackDec 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Why wouldn't you just give it AP?

Because Nashor's and Rageblade are already solid AP/IAS choices. I'm not suggesting another glass attack speed item. I'm suggesting a Bruiser item.

xShiNjiNxDec 4, 20161 votes

How is adding AP taking away from that? I like what it does now, shreds MR and takes it. Giving AP would actually amplify the magic damage from the user. Giving it armor or health isnt very fitting.

Irelia BotDec 4, 20161 votes

It was core on Irelia back in season 2 before it got the MR shredding passive form a truely worthless item called Malady that I only ever saw some Teemos buying.

We want it back as a fighter item.

RebonackDec 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=16TMl9wL,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-12-04T05:52:40.126+0000)

It was core on Irelia back in season 2 before it got the MR shredding passive form a truely worthless item called Malady that I only ever saw some Teemos buying.

We want it back as a fighter item.

I saw Lulu mid build one once.

It wasn't totally awful.

Irelia BotDec 4, 20161 votes

The only 3 champs who buy it more then 10% of the time is Warwick, Teemo and Kayle. None of them buy it more then 20%.

The item is passable in some situations but it is nothign to write home about. I want it back as a good item to rush against AP tops like it was back in season 2.

RebonackDec 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=16TMl9wL,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-04T05:59:08.097+0000)

The only 3 champs who buy it more then 10% of the time is Warwick, Teemo and Kayle. None of them buy it more then 20%.

The item is passable in some situations but it is nothign to write home about. I want it back as a good item to rush against AP tops like it was back in season 2.

I build it a lot. But I played Kog like a ranged Juggernaut because I'm weird.

Which of the three suggested solutions would you go for?

Or maybe just removing the MR shred and slashing the price?

Irelia BotDec 4, 20161 votes

I would replace the MR shred with armor

xXRaichopXxDec 4, 20161 votes

I fear Irelia because she is broken

RebonackDec 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I fear Irelia because she is broken

That isn't an unreasonable position.

But changes like these would probably come along with the Diver update, and Irelia will probably be getting changes as well.

xXRaichopXxDec 4, 20161 votes

Ok I can live with that

morris1Dec 4, 20161 votes

I fear no champ... But that... thing Irelia ... It scares me.

LovelleDec 4, 20161 votes

I see what you're after and I agree that tanky/on-hit builds should return.

BastionKrossDec 4, 20161 votes

The problem with WE is that it's not sure what it wants to be. When you look at an item like Deathcap or IE, you know exactly what that item is bought for: pure damage. When you see Warmogs or Frozen Heart, you know what to buy those items for: tankiness.

When you see Wit's End, what do you buy it for? On hit/AS? More MR? To deal more magic damage to an opponent you've been auto attacking? It does all of those things at once.

The problem is that if you're a champ that can't take advantage of all those things, you're just wasting gold by buying the item. Xin loves attack speed and on hits, and he doesn't mind the MR, but most of his damage comes from autos so he doesn't care about the MR shred. Rumble loves MR shred and the MR is nice, but he doesn't auto enough to make the AS/on hit worth buying.

Hell, even champs that can take advantage of all aspects don't buy it. You'd only get it if you're against an AP heavy team, the on hit damage doesn't scale at all, and the shred requires a long, extended fight to stack the five autos.

If you want to make it better, you're going to have to remove some things to solidify it's role in the game and then you're going to have to buff whatever's left over so that it's worth an item slot in a full build. Does it want to be an on hit item, an MR item, or a deal more magic damage item? Pick two.

RebonackDec 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The problem with WE is that it's not sure what it wants to be. When you look at an item like Deathcap or IE, you know exactly what that item is bought for: pure damage. When you see Warmogs or Frozen Heart, you know what to buy those items for: tankiness.

When you see Wit's End, what do you buy it for? On hit/AS? More MR? To deal more magic damage to an opponent you've been auto attacking? It does all of those things at once.

The problem is that if you're a champ that can't take advantage of all those things, you're just wasting gold by buying the item. Xin loves attack speed and on hits, and he doesn't mind the MR, but most of his damage comes from autos so he doesn't care about the MR shred. Rumble loves MR shred and the MR is nice, but he doesn't auto enough to make the AS/on hit worth buying.

Hell, even champs that can take advantage of all aspects don't buy it. You'd only get it if you're against an AP heavy team, the on hit damage doesn't scale at all, and the shred requires a long, extended fight to stack the five autos.

If you want to make it better, you're going to have to remove some things to solidify it's role in the game and then you're going to have to buff whatever's left over so that it's worth an item slot in a full build. Does it want to be an on hit item, an MR item, or a deal more magic damage item? Pick two.

Sounds like you would be in favor of the first option, then. Removing the MR shred from Wit's and making the OnHit damage ramp up with each basic attack akin to old Fervor would certainly be one way to making Wit's more attractive to a wider base of champions. Of course, replacing Negatron with Aegis and giving it Armor stealing as well would serve the same end, though you would end up with a more expensive item.

BastionKrossDec 4, 20161 votes

Letting it steal both MR and armor would probably be too much. Juggernauts and bruisers would run wild with something like that, even if they didn't auto all that often.

You'd also have to compare the item to it's peers Black Cleaver and BorK.

BC has armor shred, but it's applied by any physical damage and not just autos. Darius can AA you, or nail you with Q, or let his passive bleed you, and BC just keeps stacking. Meanwhile, Wit's only stacks with autos. Lame.
BC also scales it's shred; 30% at max stacks. That's useful no matter what phase of the game you're in. Wit's only takes a flat 25 MR at max stacks, even late game. Again, lame.
BorK's on hit scales with opponents, which is head and shoulders above the 40 magic damage Wit's is bringing.
BorK also gives a defensive stat in the form of lifesteal, which any champ that buys an on hit item can use because they're going to be AAing a lot. The lifesteal also specifically applies to the on hit damage as well, so it's going to heal you if you have lots of AD or not. Wit's just gives a chunk of MR, which isn't going to be all that great if you don't have the HP to back it up.

BC does the stacking mechanic better, BorK does the defensive aspect better, and both scale better than Wit's.

So not only do you have to solidify Wit's End's niche, you also have to update its mechanics to be competitive with items that have similar properties. If it's too hard to stack reliably or if the defensive stat doesn't actually protect you much, it's never going to be purchased. Wit's has a lot of problems you have to overcome if you want it to be viable, so don't be afraid to do some big changes.

RebonackDec 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Letting it steal both MR and armor would probably be too much. Juggernauts and bruisers would run wild with something like that, even if they didn't auto all that often.

More so than they run wild with Black Cleaver? The range of champs who benefit from both types of resist shred is pretty narrow. Such an effect can be balanced for the same reason that Rageblade can. A surplus of stats isn't terrible when utilizing all those stats is difficult. And in instances where the effect is too powerful targeted nerfs are totally fine. Most Juggernauts scale off HP and bonus AD, so Aegis!Wit's wouldn't be attractive on them. Would be on tanky Fighters, however. Which is the whole point.

You'd also have to compare the item to it's peers Black Cleaver and BorK.

You really shouldn't. The goal of each are pretty different. If Wit's did get the Aegis addition, it's price point would probably end up being similar to Cleaver's. Cleaver and BorK are both well suited for tackling tanky foes (high armor and high HP, respectively). The suggested change to Wit's would still peg it as a tool for making soft targets sad, which is what it already does. It would simply be doing so in a fashion that's attractive on a much wider range of champions.

BC has armor shred, but it's applied by any physical damage and not just autos. Darius can AA you, or nail you with Q, or let his passive bleed you, and BC just keeps stacking. Meanwhile, Wit's only stacks with autos. Lame.

BC also scales it's shred; 30% at max stacks. That's useful no matter what phase of the game you're in. Wit's only takes a flat 25 MR at max stacks, even late game. Again, lame.

BorK's on hit scales with opponents, which is head and shoulders above the 40 magic damage Wit's is bringing.

BorK also gives a defensive stat in the form of lifesteal, which any champ that buys an on hit item can use because they're going to be AAing a lot. The lifesteal also specifically applies to the on hit damage as well, so it's going to heal you if you have lots of AD or not. Wit's just gives a chunk of MR, which isn't going to be all that great if you don't have the HP to back it up.

BC does the stacking mechanic better, BorK does the defensive aspect better, and both scale better than Wit's.

So not only do you have to solidify Wit's End's niche, you also have to update its mechanics to be competitive with items that have similar properties. If it's too hard to stack reliably or if the defensive stat doesn't actually protect you much, it's never going to be purchased. Wit's has a lot of problems you have to overcome if you want it to be viable, so don't be afraid to do some big changes.

If Wit's were transitioned to a high-end item item 3105 + item 1043 + item 3101 then I can certainly see it's stats being improved. However, I think that insisting its effects must scale is wrong. An item can be tuned for being most effective against soft targets. That isn't a problem. There's plenty of room in the game's itemization to allow for it.

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