I'm sorry to say but Lethality items are a joke

ßurst·Nov 13, 2016·8 votes·1,799 views

The only lethality item worth buying on an assassin type champ is yommus anything else is just trash. There are champs that like lethality but can't use it because the items suck. Dusk blade is tailored to a few champs plus a couple adcs since it relies on stealth while yommus can be used on any assassin because it's a good item design for ad assassins. Edge of night is a very poor item considering that most engages coming from assassin champs are predictable and if you hop into let's say a cait and she has 2 others by her the assassin is probably dead anyway the spell shield isn't much of a help since cait crits for more damage than the assassin will do anyway. Imho also lethality is not a very good concept it takes away what armor pen was all about. You can't even run a full lethality page like you used to be able to with armor pen because you lose so much damage its actually sad.

38 Comments

YoobaNov 13, 20164 votes

Lethality as a whole is a joke. Why did they even create this garbage concept? I have no idea what's my damage output anymore on champs that need lethality. The way it works is just retarded. This patch is shit.

ßurstNov 13, 20163 votes

Exactly because I buy lethality I don't even know how much armor pen I will be getting on a target anymore I don't play assassins very much but I used to play riven full armor pen because she plays similar to assassins now that it's lethality the only item decent on her is yommus even then people are opting for better options

Lord DesertNov 13, 20164 votes

Are you sure that lethalitly and the new items are trash? Well then let me enlighten you... At level 1 you get ~50armorpen out of lethality, at level 9 ~75% and at 18 100%. If we compare Red armorpen runes + mastery, we get old Armorpen values from 15 - 21 and with lethality we get 11 - 23 (from level 1 to 18)... So tell me again how Armorpen is "gutted"... Oh and did i mentioned that you now get 50 (20+15+15) Armorpen insted of 40 (20+10+10) from 3 items at level 18? Basicly Assasins DO MORE dmg with 3 items alone, because now you strip 73 Armor FLAT WITH 3 ITEMS!!!

If you assume things, try to look at the facts first. And I dont bother to try to correct your other assumptions.

ßurstNov 13, 20162 votes

Ypu get 40% at level one but that's no big deal. You get more but it depends on your opponents level. Armor pen is made to be able to give you an early advantage and lethality takes that's away lol. Assassins are for the mid game if your picking zed going "oh yea at level 18 this 50 lethality is gonna be so worth against this Anivia and Vayne its gonna be so great" then sure go ahead and think it's a good stat. The stat is abysmal and dusk blade oh yea have fun using that passive at all when late game it's both your teams grouping and clearing waves mid. Edge of night you can argue it's decent but in reality it's not, I dare you to go into a game and at least try to use it effectively. There's tons of problems duskblade is designed for stealth champs while with EoN an assassination can happen in a matter of seconds because the adc stepped out of position for a second you can't have time to prep the thing before going in on that. But that's just my 2 cents.

ßurstNov 13, 20162 votes

You get 40% at level one but that's no big deal. You get more but it depends on your opponents level. Armor pen is made to be able to give you an early advantage and lethality takes that's away lol. Assassins are for the mid game if your picking zed going "oh yea at level 18 this 50 lethality is gonna be so worth against this Anivia and Vayne its gonna be so great" then sure go ahead and think it's a good stat. The stat is abysmal and dusk blade oh yea have fun using that passive at all when late game it's both your teams grouping and clearing waves mid game. Edge of night you can argue it's decent but in reality it's not, I dare you to go into a game and at least try to use it effectively. There's tons of problems duskblade is designed for stealth champs while with EoN an assassination can happen in a matter of seconds because the adc stepped out of position for a second you can't have time to prep the thing before going in on that. But that's just my 2 cents.

ßurstNov 13, 20163 votes

Also, you used to be able to get 61 from armor pen but that was 61 the whole game you aren't gonna have 61 armor pen level 1. At the very least armor pen should scale with your own level instead because of someone is a lower level than you they should be punished even more. Valkrin said this a challenger player

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

first of its 43,33333 at level 1 not 40% if you want exact numbers and it grows by 3,333 per level. Making it scale with the enemy level was intreduced to keep assasins from snowballing to hard with arpen. Look at my comment below for futher explaintions

ZephyrDrakeNov 13, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=14KQXXaI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-13T15:26:19.695+0000)

Are you sure that lethalitly and the new items are trash? Well then let me enlighten you... At level 1 you get ~50armorpen out of lethality, at level 9 ~75% and at 18 100%. If we compare Red armorpen runes + mastery, we get old Armorpen values from 15 - 21 and with lethality we get 11 - 23 (from level 1 to 18)... So tell me again how Armorpen is "gutted"... Oh and did i mentioned that you now get 50 (20+15+15) Armorpen insted of 40 (20+10+10) from 3 items at level 18? Basicly Assasins DO MORE dmg with 3 items alone, because now you strip 73 Armor FLAT WITH 3 ITEMS!!!

If you assume things, try to look at the facts first. And I dont bother to try to correct your other assumptions.

sorry to say this but by the time you get to lvl 18 it doesn't matter how much armor pen/lethality you have since if you are dealing with a squishy they will die just as fast regardless and if you are dealing with a tank they will take just as little damage regardless. The fact that throughout most of the game you essentially have worst armor pen in exchange of to having a very small increase at MAX LVL pretty much makes the stat as a whole completely pointless specially since it depends on the enemy lvl not yours so if the enemies are underlvl'd then you aren't getting the full value of lethality and you would be killing them just as fast with just items that give more AD instead. There is very little point in building lethality unless you plan on getting duskblade

ßurstNov 13, 20162 votes

THANK YOU! You get it!

Lord DesertNov 13, 20163 votes

"very small increase"?!... we have a total of 12 more armorpen at level 18. If those 12 more pen reduce the enemy armor from 12 to 0 you get 10,7% dmg increase vs them. Go ahead and tell me again how 10% INCREASED DMG is "pointless" or a "very small increase"... And every squishy has around 75-80 Armor + your optional quints and blackcleaver those guys take truedmg from you even with armor runes. From You an assasisin with high scalings & basedmg.
No you dont need level 18 to break even, depending on the items and runes/masteries you can get even at ~level 11 or ~at level 16 if you only have runes and youmuus. And again 12 more pen is far from "useless". Or you surely can have more pen at all times, But for that you are only allowed to take the Lethality/MrPen mastery, and then dusk/EoN after level 11.
You need to keep in mind what riot wanted to do: Assasins less snowbally and giving a reaction window vs them.(0.5-1s). So they made it scale with the enemy level, and a bit weaker at early levels, but way stronger late(mostly on items).
Ok if there is no point in building lethality, then why are assasins using items with lethality? They could build a few others like IE, BT or DD etc. ........ because they want to do as much dmg as possible vs Squishys, and, hold your horses, reducing their armor to literly 0 increases their dmg by ~45%, But Yeah you are totaly right, why the hell are they building lethality, completly useless now....
Just as a reminder: you will complete your first item EARLYEST! at level 9. 2nd is about 11-13 depending on farm/kills and 3rd at 14+.

ZephyrDrakeNov 13, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=14KQXXaI,comment-id=000200020001,timestamp=2016-11-13T17:09:05.501+0000)

"very small increase"?!... we have a total of 12 more armorpen at level 18. If those 12 more pen reduce the enemy armor from 12 to 0 you get 10,7% dmg increase vs them. Go ahead and tell me again how 10% INCREASED DMG is "pointless" or a "very small increase"... And every squishy has around 75-80 Armor + your optional quints and blackcleaver those guys take truedmg from you even with armor runes. From You an assasisin with high scalings & basedmg.

No you dont need level 18 to break even, depending on the items and runes/masteries you can get even at ~level 11 or ~at level 16 if you only have runes and youmuus. And again 12 more pen is far from "useless". Or you surely can have more pen at all times, But for that you are only allowed to take the Lethality/MrPen mastery, and then dusk/EoN after level 11.

You need to keep in mind what riot wanted to do: Assasins less snowbally and giving a reaction window vs them.(0.5-1s). So they made it scale with the enemy level, and a bit weaker at early levels, but way stronger late(mostly on items).

Ok if there is no point in building lethality, then why are assasins using items with lethality? They could build a few others like IE, BT or DD etc. ........ because they want to do as much dmg as possible vs Squishys, and, hold your horses, reducing their armor to literly 0 increases their dmg by ~45%, But Yeah you are totaly right, why the hell are they building lethality, completly useless now....

go ahead and build all the lethality you want, won't do a single thing and the increase is minimal. Once again, you would be killing squishies just as easily with pure AD items regardless of the amount of armor pen you would have at MAX LVL! Tell me what people are building outside of ghostablade and the spell shield one? they aren't doing it because of the lethality but because of what else the item gives. That's why they are building it, lethality is more like a bonus thing that they could care less about at that point. It's not "way stronger" and the way lethality works it is at lvl 18 that it breaks even. You get 40% of the base lethality instantly and then the other 60% through enemy lvls. You can go ahead and build the items for the lethality, it won't change a single thing. If i ever build one of those items it won't be because lethality is in them it's because of the other actual useful things it provides

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

ok my friend, just because you dont seem to be soo good with numbers: 10% is ALOT!!! and those items still give you high amounts of ad too.

And you seem to have something over you eyes too....

reducing their armor to literly 0 increases their dmg by ~45%,

Assuming a Full combo with 6 Ad items may deal 2500 Dmg. reduced by 45% because the target has ~75 armor and you do a total of 1375 Dmg. Lets say with the Lethality items your combo does only 2000 Dmg, but this dmg will not be reduced so you deal 2000 Dmg. And just to be on the safe side here: 2000 > 1375.

And you start with 43.333% not 40% and you get 3.333% per level I hope this will enlighten you. If you dont trust not me, then trust atleast the Facts.

ßurstNov 13, 20163 votes

I don't think you understand that literally almost all assassins fall off by the late game that's why that increase is minimal you can barely feel it because the assassin fell off.

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

Assasins dont fall of because of ArPen or Dmg, they "fall off" because in a 5v5 you simply cant go to the enemy carries and lovetap them. And the chance of 5v5s is slightly increased at the +40 min mark. And this 10% increase very often makes a diffrence between live and death. And you get these extra 10% for free.

Lord SessshomaruNov 13, 20164 votes

Lol he doesn't get it...from all the EU comments you see on here, I can see why the EU teams don't even compete with the other regions.

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

Guess which region made it to quaters :P EUW>NA The thing is I Present fully logical Arguments WITH evidence, while all you guys are able to do is: "i dont like it","not true","doesnt matter" etc.

If i am wrong PROVE IT! Im not talking about what I THINK or PREFER, im taliking about FACTS. But you american guys are a bit ...... You know, Trump was elected President etc. Im not saying that you are completly resistent towards facts and logical arguments, but well 3 out of 3 of you prove me, that the possibiltys of this hypotheses beeing true, is very high. I literaly have no other choice xDDDDD

So if the topic is "Lethality/ Lethality Items are bad" and i provied you FACTS that this is completly, or lets say mostly, false. Its then your call. Ether you can prove my facts wrong or give facts stating the oppsite, OR you acknoweldge it and be happy/sad that ArPen did not get gutted. Every other Reaction makes you an Idiot.

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

YOU PROVED WITH FACTS SAYING THAT IT LITERALLY SCALES BETTER AT LEVEL 18 ASSASSINS ARENT ABOUT LEVEL 18 OR THE LATE GAME THEY NEVER WERE. There are some that are good in the late game but almost all fall no clue what you don't get. Assassins don't care about level 18 I'm pretty sure any assassin main would tell you they'd rather have the early advantage of flat armor pen then have 10% more damage when everyone is level 18. At that point it doesn't even matter for the assassin because if you are against a control Mage like Anivia she's outscaled you and by the time you are level 18 she's probably be able to kill you 1v1 anyway lol

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

I proved you that assasins are now BETTER in late game, EVEN(No Change) at mid game and close to no change(just a tiny,tiny bit weaker) at early levels. And with Maw and EoN you can kill a anivia without a problem. You have tons of mr + spellshield and 400+ Mr shield on top. You dont need to fear a control mage at all.

if something is troublesome to you, a 10% increase in dmg vs them helps you to kill them faster/reliable. Thats all i ever told you.

Edit. And normaly(!) you get even with the Old ArPen at level 12 - 14 depending on items, runes etc.

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

Dude you obviously just don't get it lol I'll direct you to a challenger player. https://youtu.be/E8g0K8XiCkY

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

Ok before i get into some general stuff: This guy doesnt seem to know how lethality works o.O! Precision (8,5 Lethality) is BETTER then the old version, at every point in the game!!! And he still takes cdr over it!? You get ~4 instant and you get the same at level 18!!! The new Precision is Better in terms of ArPen then the old version.

Because of this choice i already must assume that he is not well imformed about Lethality. And everybody can be wrong sometimes.

But he had 1 think right, If you want to pick Lethality you should pick Lethality reds, Precision and atleast 2 Lethality items. Thats what i would recommend.

Him plaing Zed and not taking any lethality, while he rushes Youmuus and he didnt buy an EoN or Qss, while facing a tf, a zyra, and a poppy is nuts..... The all have cc buts its super predictable and EoN would have safed him from tf ults

and here at 10:00. He then talks about him not doing stuff to tanks... Hes a god damn Zed... he is not suposed to Kill poppy xDDDD

And here at 11:20. he has 470 ad (357 bonus ad) His Q does 450 to zyra. If he had the mastery and reds and an EoN he would have done ~ 522 Dmg. His Q would have done over 70 more dmg, and that was just 1 Q, think about the double Q or + e and r. And yes i already assumed a lower Ad values from the runes and EoN.

As you see he just doesnt know how lethality works. And honestly after seeing his itemization and the lake of EoN or maw or even a QSS vs the targeted hard cc is making me question him beeing challenger! I see some huge flaws there! Even on his Kha video he didnt take Precision?! Im fine if hes challenger but his view of lethality is complete wrong and he should seriously rethink that if he wants to stay challenger!

ßurstNov 15, 20161 votes

I doubt he's not going to stay in challenger because of some of his views on lethality lol. He's been like too 10 challenger a decent amount. Also precision is better now yea by .3 armor pen level 1 lol. Although some things I can agree on such as him not getting a qss I feel it's an overall better item than EoN. Where as EoN is poorly designed as assassins can get in and get out in a moments notice EoN makes it go oh the adc is out of position let's channel this real quick great now I can go in.. Oh wait hes back with his team now.

The DeckownerNov 13, 20162 votes

lethality scales off enemy level not your level.

and in max level it is just the same as the armor pen from the items before the change.

Lord DesertNov 13, 20161 votes

i know, all values are for the enemy level, but because in normal games theres a max differnce of ~3 level its not far of your own level. no you get +12 arpen. 2 from reds, EoN gives 15, compared to the Old Maw with gave 10. and the new duskblade gives 15 up from 10 as well, for a total of 12.

ßurstNov 13, 20162 votes

Yes that's why it's trash tier now because Armor pen before was a way to buff your early game a bit because the enemy decided to do something dumb and give you a lead. Now it's useless because if you get a lead the lethality is negligible

Shuyin178Nov 13, 20164 votes

The only thing I don't like about Lethality is that you don't know what your armor pen value is because it fluctuates from enemy to enemy, it's not a stable number.

There is no chance in hell I am going to be able to calculate what my armor pen number is on an opponent each level.

ßurstNov 13, 20162 votes

Yea I found myself taking out my calculator the first game with lethality LMFAO

The DeckownerNov 13, 20162 votes

The only reason I build the Lethality items is for the out of combat movementspeed.

youmuu+duskblade+mobi boot gives you some crazy roaming speed.

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

Yea but if your only using it for the roam speed that's a lot of dmg you missing out on :(

6SfoolNov 13, 20162 votes

I was all excited to use the items on Nocturne because I was finally going to get items that truly synergize on him. Then i thought about it. Duskblade can only be used once Youmuu's is pointless with all the movement speed steroids he already has Edge gives a spellshield, which he already has, and has little use for extra

I was annoyed af.

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

Yea the items are pretty bad tbh ig bc I actually used to be able to use all items with riven but now I can only use yommus decently. I'm going back to building assassins straight ad instead of this lethality

BakedLotionNov 13, 20162 votes

Lol Edge of Night is broken as fuck

AstôlfoNov 13, 20162 votes

makes a class that's supposed to snowball literally makes it impossible for them to snowball instead of just reducing the snowball extent which could have been slightly unhealthy facepalm

EcchiOtakuTMNov 13, 20162 votes

Edge of night's effect is great wth you talking about? You aren't trying to stay in exchanges like a tryn you want to go in and get out as a burst duelist, spell shield is perfect for that and fits the assassin playstyle.

Youmuu needs a rework tbh the out of combat MS was a great addition but there realy isn't anything fun about youmuu's effect. They can't add AS back cause ADC abuse but they didn't add anything like "while unseen". Just don't think and use it to engage or run. Not even needing it for roaming anymore. It may be iconic but needs a different effect now.

Duskblade, simply needs a higher passive lethality scaling. It's suppose to be a first buy and amp lethality purchases but only kha and vayne can actually get use from it.

I generally liked lethality because it weakened snowball meaning they could actually have room to give assassin kits more power. Aside from akali they did but needs follow up tweaks to (thinking of some phrase with seeds and growing.....?) "bring these seeds to fruition?"

Cause ignoring kha/rengy(obviously strong) and akali(clunky and nerfed hard), everyone else was put in a stronger position with small hiccups which are easily fixable with tweaks.

Maybe you're judging it based on off-meta assassins? Or someone not invested into it? Because lethality is working great, you already have your advantage of being ahead to dominate with, don't gotta be fully oppressive about it which allows longer run rewards. However if you refuse to grab duskblade ofc lethality would be weaker. Duskblade was made to actually make lethality strong early.

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

EoN can be a good pickup but I'm saying if a add steps out of position for just a second and you want to go in and kill her while she walks be ask to her team then you don't have time to even charge it up. But duskblade literally works as of now on like 2 maybe 3 assassins reliably and an adc it needs a passive change and so does yommus cuz it's just kinda bad now lol as you said nothing special

EcchiOtakuTMNov 13, 20161 votes

Hmm yea I can see where you're coming from on EoN and duskblade.

Tbh I still want EoN to stay the same for now but youmuu AND duskblade need effects changed.

I didn't even think champs actually use it(Talon, zed, and off-meta builds like j4/wukong) anywhere close to kha/vayne. Meaning they don't grab it cause they WANT to, but for the other effects.

Hell even further to lower ADC use the buff only stays for 4 seconds when visible making it pointless for moments when visible't flank.

Shxt now you made me hate new duskblade why you do this? I already hated that it was a no skill red trinket(auto activate, DISABLES traps thus destroy teemo further, even AP shaco.)

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

No clue what happened to my post tried to edit something and it put a Facebook link ???

ßurstNov 13, 20161 votes

Fixed it

warpenguin555Nov 13, 20161 votes

Only time ill buy any lethality items is if it ghost blade or if im playing Jhin ill buy edge of night and get the spell shield off before i ult. Other than that ill just go full AD