Can we get a 'Sustain' rework? Esp for Sustain Tanks?

XxxLumberJackxxX·Mar 10, 2017·31 votes·2,102 views

EC just makes sustain focused champs (swain, mundo) so garbage... and EC is in the game because you haven't devoted the resources to balancing sustain yet. So... Do it plz rito?

44 Comments

DaeneriesMar 10, 20176 votes

Remove Executioner's Calling, Add its passive to Mortal Reminder. That way you won't get countered by 800g.

XxxLumberJackxxXMar 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Remove Executioner's Calling, Add its passive to Mortal Reminder. That way you won't get countered by 800g.

That is still terrible. HOw does mundo counterplay that item? It shouldn't be a thing

PlanetWarwickMar 10, 20172 votes

It's only 40% and from a swain main, it's literally nothing unless you're behind as shity

XxxLumberJackxxXMar 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's only 40% and from a swain main, it's literally nothing unless you're behind as shity

Its literally 40% instantly at range from auto attacks. Its huge

RainXBladeMar 13, 20171 votes

40% reduced healing from all sources is pretty huge when you're playing a life steal reliant champion (AKA anything that can abuse old Warlord's, Swain, Mundo or Volibear)

GayFluffyUnicornMar 10, 20172 votes

Not true at all. GW sucks ass especially for swain. You notice that when you go into that sweet zhonyas and instead of healing back to full health you come out with barely 50%. Sure when you go 10/0 and 200 cs in 20 mins you are unstoppable as every other champ in the game but you don't balance around the idea of getting a huge lead every game. Being even or only slightly ahead is enough for your heals to be useless against GW. GW needs to be removed and every problematic champ reworked/buffed/nerfed accordingly.

FluffySoxOfDoomMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That is still terrible. HOw does mundo counterplay that item? It shouldn't be a thing

Mundo is getting a rework sooner rather than later js. There are obvious problems with his kit not just being countered by one item that is very cheap.

5000000000000000Mar 10, 20176 votes

Burst is supposed to counter sustain, but how do you burst a tank? By weakening the heal with grievous wound. But what about squishy champs who rely on sustain to gain tankiness? lol

RainXBladeMar 13, 20171 votes

Remember reworked Kog'Maw with Sated Devourer/Guinsoo's with Ruined King, Frozen Mallet and a bunch of other sustain items? I don't want to re-live that experience

5000000000000000Mar 13, 20171 votes

I meant more along the lines of Fiddlesticks, Mordekaiser, Swain, etc. Without their sustain, they're fairly squishy (especially Fiddlesticks; others have some natural tankiness but tends to buy damage first). I agree lifesteal is hard to balance though.

FertsaMar 10, 20173 votes

EC exists because riot believes that "heals are anti-fun".

RalanrMar 10, 201713 votes

I mean, how fun is it to keep fighting someone who is out healing everything you do while still hurting you?

XxxLumberJackxxXMar 10, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I mean, how fun is it to keep fighting someone who is out healing everything you do while still hurting you?

Yes. This is why rw please

RalanrMar 10, 20174 votes

Problem is how do you rework it to fulfill its fantasy when the fantasy itself can be frustrating from a gameplay perspective?

I think Warwick does it well. His sustain doesn't activate until he's a half health and he has another way to mitigate damage.

AptestMar 10, 20173 votes

every fantasy, if it is good, will be frustrating from a gameplay perspective. Because every fantasy worth it's salt is about shitting over the other guy.

the way you do this is by providing a reasonable set of circumstances where you will be made to fail.

RalanrMar 10, 20172 votes

Ok, so how to you provide the circumstances to fail outside of buying GW?

AptestMar 10, 20173 votes

Drain tanking is essentially a form of being tanky when you are attacking, and is characterized by a gradual increase in HP.

the answer is generally, to either burst the character or not allow him to attack when his capacity to drain tank is available.

with that thought here are some answers:

the character is very squishy and can't build tank and doesn't have trump cards against death so you can just burst it and kill it within the span of a single CC chain (ADC case).
the character only has drain tanking available for a short, telegraphed duration. At which point it can be kited at that duration (trundle case).
the character can only drain tank when it is specifically vulnerable to a form of attack that circumvents drain tanking (Warwick case).

characters that can consistently drain tank so long as they are in range of whatever they use to drain tank are a problem, because a lot of low damage champions exist that can only function inside those ranges. if you are playing a champion who's major strength is "close range sustained melee attacking", a "as long as we exchange AAs, i delete you damage" champion is a hard counter.

KaeblenMar 10, 20174 votes

the problem with drain tanking is item 1053 .

drain tanking should be a champion ability. not an item. (notably, this is less of a problem than it used to be)

Papa AndreiMar 11, 20172 votes

Riot needs to remove sustain from items that are not support/health regen based

AptestMar 11, 20172 votes

i used to think this way and then there was this other guy on the forums who wrote a great argument in favor of vamp scepter.

specifically, that it allows champions to have the hp required to 1v1, whilst being vulnerable to burst.

so i think the problem is not simply in fight sustain existing, but rather in some cases the amount of it.

Votable JesterMar 12, 20172 votes

The issue is it sometimes makes burst the only way you can kill them. It's especially annoying when a mage can't kill them in one rotation, and they just heal back to full before any of your spells are back off cooldown.

AptestMar 12, 20171 votes

That's either a question of situational strength (protected ADC or unprotected ADC) or game-stage strength (early game ADC or later game ADC).

The question is therefore: should you be able to kill a protected ADC? should you be able to kill a late game ADC?

I am not sure of the answers, but there certainly is a case that at the late game (this is when the ADC has this kind of LS), the ADC is supposed to kill the mage / assassin, rather than the other way around.

KaeblenMar 14, 20171 votes

Your argument is inherently flawed: "should you be able to kill a protected adc?"--when you say "protected adc" you are probably refering to one that is being protected by his/her allies. this means you are fighting more than just the adc (obviously) and you need to account for that 1v2, 2v2, etc situation. Asking if you should be able able to kill a protected adc is the same as asking if you should be able to win a fight vs multiple opponents. (if they have allies you may want to bring some too, etc.)

early game vs late game champions may exist, but the fact remains that (due to immense lifesteal and other low-cost defenses) many marksmen and other champions can enter a fight, take constant damage during that fight, and walk away with more health than they started with.

my initial post was mildly exagerated, but the fact remains that Lifesteal is a form of defense, and given that 'adc' is steriotypically a "offense only" position, that defense (as well as others--the others are actually larger offenders right now) is coming to them far more cheaply than it should.

Glory ln DeathMar 10, 20173 votes

It could be done with more windowed sustain. Mundo's uult, for instance, is very strong sustain, but doesn't feel super unfair because, well, it's his ult and it's only for a short time. Or how a lot of Vlad's healing got moved to his empowered Q, which is only available for a few seconds.

ParoeMar 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

EC exists because riot believes that "heals are anti-fun".

Drain tanks are anti-fun - but swain and Mundo are not drain tanks. Sustain champs yes, but not drain tanks. Warwick and pre rework aatrox were the only "designed" drain tanks.

Drain tanks are offensive champions who have resistances and can "tank" via lifesteal. Marksman are the real drain tanks. Ive seen marksman run lifesteal/AS builds and tank onhit jungle kogmaws, their itemization for it plus their base stats are just so good for it.

YalathanilMar 10, 20171 votes

^ exactly

Warwick's best and only good counter is severe burst damage, and even then if he lives, chances are that he will just heal back forever.

Chembaron YamadaMar 10, 20173 votes

Have to agree on Mundo, he is actually regenerating health and doesn't require a target for it. But Swain should be a drain tank, don't you think? His ult is dealing damage and he gets health for every target hit. Sounds like a drain tank ability for me.

And you forgot Vladimir, he is a drain tank by design, too.

I actually can't wait for Mundo to have his turn for a VGU.... his champion concept is nice, I really like that guy, but his playstyle is just so insanely boring....

ParoeMar 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Have to agree on Mundo, he is actually regenerating health and doesn't require a target for it. But Swain should be a drain tank, don't you think? His ult is dealing damage and he gets health for every target hit. Sounds like a drain tank ability for me.

And you forgot Vladimir, he is a drain tank by design, too.

I actually can't wait for Mundo to have his turn for a VGU.... his champion concept is nice, I really like that guy, but his playstyle is just so insanely boring....

Swain is "over time" and the heal itself requires a lot of AP AND enemies. The overall AP reduction last season hurt his healing ability a lot. People dont seem to realize that with less AP on core items, mages are overall weaker than marksman at full build and are only better in the mid game when ahead.

Chembaron YamadaMar 11, 20171 votes

If Swain is strong or not has nothing to do with the question if his design is a drain tank or not? ô.o Just like marksman being stronger has nothing to do with it. I am just saying that he is a drain tank in concept. You are right that marksman become drain tanks when it comes to itemization.

But to be fair: every champ can become a drain tank thanks to itemization.

ParoeMar 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If Swain is strong or not has nothing to do with the question if his design is a drain tank or not? ô.o Just like marksman being stronger has nothing to do with it. I am just saying that he is a drain tank in concept. You are right that marksman become drain tanks when it comes to itemization.

But to be fair: every champ can become a drain tank thanks to itemization.

In swains case his ability to drain is directly related to the amount of AP he can obtain while still building tanky. item 3027 item 3040 item 3089 item 3020 item 3742 item 3065 . Swain needs at least SV, and he needs deadmans to stay in range. The three AP items are the literal strongest AP items in the game right now... and it hardly gets to 400AP.

Chembaron YamadaMar 11, 20171 votes

So you basically agree that he is a drain tank in concept. Nothing more I am talking about. ^^

Troll for TrumpMar 11, 20172 votes

And then they devote entire kits to the healing. So their success depends on whether or not ppl buy Executioner's Calling. They need some way to counterplay Grev wounds imo, if it's that easy to apply.

Illaoi Fiddlesticks Swain Aatrox DrMundo Vladimir

Lord MalpercioMar 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

And then they devote entire kits to the healing. So their success depends on whether or not ppl buy Executioner's Calling. They need some way to counterplay Grev wounds imo, if it's that easy to apply.

Fid's only really got a heal for jungle clear and bronzies who attempt to 1v1 him in melee range w/o CC.

MokkunMar 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

EC exists because riot believes that "heals are anti-fun".

Well, they are. For the same reason assassins are.

Either they are enough to matter, in which case they are oppressive, or they aren't in which case they are useless.

In all PVP games, this will be an issue. The only way to balance assassins, or serious healers (self or others), is to not have them. Because they will never, ever, be anything but "anti-fun" for someone. Whether that's the player, or their opponent.

The problem with using PVE character fantasies, is that some of them don't port well to PVP.

Thing is, we're stuck with both, and both will cause problems. In this case, Riot seems comfortable mostly ignoring stuff.

Anu3isIIMar 10, 20173 votes

Remove Grievous Wounds, lower the sustain of every champion in the game, take a look at Lifesteal/Omnivamp items in case they become too powerful, and look at some other ways to buff Ignite (maybe make it so Base Health Regen and Healing from potions are greatly reduced/nullified when it affects a target?).

SpecterVonBarenMar 10, 20172 votes

The issue with EC is that there's no gameplay to the GW it applies. That's the biggest problem with GW being on items right now, it's all completely passive stuff that requires no thinking on your part. They need to put actives on those items and make it so you have to decide when to apply GW so that there's a way for someone to wait it out or back off or what have you.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 10, 20172 votes

swain is within the top 10 strongest champions and has been for years. very good in high elo and lcs. and also a solo queue stomper. only reason he isn't nerfed is because nobody plays him.

mundo on the other hand is garbag

SanctimoniousMar 11, 20171 votes

Swains trash, and isn't played because he is. EC counters him, and good champions make a bigger difference than he does.

VesemirMar 10, 20171 votes

yes remove that item please

KaeblenMar 10, 20171 votes

problems with sustain for tanks? what about reducing sustain for non-tanks?

can we get a global -50% lifesteal benefit on all items? I think that would be great.

KrinuMar 10, 20171 votes

The problem with grievous wounds is that it's completely passive for physical damage dealers.

For mages, item 3165 adds another aspect of threat - when they get you low, they also cut out some of the tools you might use to survive. It helps them seal a kill. For the physical damage dealers, it's just a flat "you don't get to heal when you fight me."

You can change how you play (leave early, blow heal items and abilities early, use summoners, etc.) to work around the mage GW applicator. You can't do any of that for the physical damage one... and physical damage dealers aren't "whittle them down slowly" any more; they burst just as hard as the mages do.

I understand wanting to have a way to counter healing, especially self-healing, because it can feel super sucky to fight somebody that you just can't do lasting damage to. But it also feels like absolute garbage to be a champion that relies on healing ( DrMundo , Soraka , etc.) to just get a third of your output nixed by an 800g item that you can't work around in any way, shape, or form.

Earl EulrichMar 11, 20171 votes

well, the issue is persistent since forever, and there have been threads about it even back in S2. so that now 5 years of Riot ignoring the problem. best of luck with the rework cough

XxxLumberJackxxXMar 11, 20171 votes

Surprisingly good discusssion

RequiemsfireMar 13, 20171 votes

I believe what makes the sustain fantasy difficult to implement is the concept of snowballing. Basically a Mundo who is snowballing would be virtually unstoppable if grevous wounds, same goes for literally everyone who relies on sustain while building tanky. There's no real way to counterplay regeneration steroids or even direct heals because of how it mesh's against total damage and the cooldown of abilities.