Hey Riot, if you guys are considering making Crystal Scepter build out of Aether Wisp-

Rebonack·Jan 19, 2015·32 votes·1,654 views

-why can't Frozen Mallet built out of Phage?

19 Comments

PalPlaysJan 19, 20158 votes

They do need to rework Frozen Mallet. I love the stats but don't like the build path or the cost. Make it build out of Phage and then give Mallet 20% movement speed steal.

doubleguacJan 20, 20151 votes

It intentionally has a high cost and an awkward build path to prevent champions from rushing it in lane.

Back when Phage slowed, it made melee vs. melee lanes incredibly snowbally. As soon as someone got a lead, they would rush out a phage and perma-zone their opponent.

BaculusJan 20, 20151 votes

Attackspeed Teemo also rushed it. Never upgraded Phage... because he KNEW it would proc.

seen things mang, so many things.

PalPlaysJan 22, 20151 votes

What's the difference between them rushing this and not Iceborn Gauntlet?

doubleguacJan 23, 20152 votes

It's similar, but there are a few important differences:

iceborn gauntlet isn't a perma-slow. Even if you are playing a champion with a very spammable ability, the internal cooldown of the item creates intervals when an opponent can escape
Iceborn gauntlet uses resources. It's a mana item, and the slow only procs if you are using abilities. If you are spamming abilities to repeatedly proc the slow, you are eventually going to run out of mana
FM gives stats that are universally useful on any AD bruiser. Health and flat AD are both fantastic stats to rush on AD bruiser. When you could efficiently rush it out of phage, there was no real "opportunity cost" to rushing it--it let you perma slow champions while also providing the stats you needed to smash your opponent in a flat out duel. On the other hand, Gauntlet offers more niche benefits. It's mostly a defensive item. It forces you to spend a lot of gold on a stat (mana) that doesn't necessarily provide any benefit within a duel. And flat armor is often less valuable than health in bruiser vs bruiser lanes, since most bruisers have at least a few sources of magic damage. Even if you are almost perma-slowing someone with gauntlet, you've given up some raw dueling power, and therefore aren't going to be quite as oppressive.

I think the last point is probably the most important one. If FM didn't offer such universally attractive dueling stats, the perma-slow wouldn't be nearly such a big deal.

bradJan 19, 20155 votes

"toxic" "anti-fun" and probably some other buzzwords

PalPlaysJan 19, 20151 votes

Buzzwords? I've never heard that term lol! What does it mean?

EdbwnJan 20, 20152 votes

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=buzzword+definition

I Kill CommiesJan 19, 20152 votes

When they changed it almost 2 years ago they gave a detailed explanation of why. Phage used to slow just like frozen mallet. It had to be removed because when 1 top laner got slightly ahead, they came back with a phage. Extra hp, ad, and a slow on hit made it so that the other top laner couldn't even set foot into lane again without being jumped on, permaslowed and then killed again.

Also, it wouldn't make any sense to have frozen mallet build out of the reworked phage. Phage now gives a movespeed buff to the user, frozen mallet slows the enemy. They're not really similar anymore.

RebonackJan 19, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 MonkeyD Luffy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0tfT6tra,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-19T20:28:39.068+0000)

When they changed it almost 2 years ago they gave a detailed explanation of why. Phage used to slow just like frozen mallet. It had to be removed because when 1 top laner got slightly ahead, they came back with a phage. Extra hp, ad, and a slow on hit made it so that the other top laner couldn't even set foot into lane again without being jumped on, permaslowed and then killed again.

Also, it wouldn't make any sense to have frozen mallet build out of the reworked phage. Phage now gives a movespeed buff to the user, frozen mallet slows the enemy. They're not really similar anymore.

I've been around since Open Beta, I know what Phage used to do.

Making Mallet build out of Phage + Giant's Belt would still solve the early game snowball issue with old Phage while at the same time making the build path for Mallet farm more attractive. Mallet would have the Rage passive as well as the slowing passive. Heck, they could make it steal 20% of the target's movespeed to make it less overbearing or something, that would make it more consistent with the functionality of Phage.

Then remake Entropy while they're at it. Axe the active and give it a 25% chance to slow the target and deal (percentage) of your bonus AD in physical damage over 3 seconds. Since Entropy is a fairly expensive item that would prevent it from being dominating in the lane phase.

TheI3igDaddyJan 20, 20151 votes

I though they said that the real reason they changed Phage was because it was a CHANCE to slow the enemy, and they were looking to remove the RNG elements that weren't crits.

SageaceJan 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I though they said that the real reason they changed Phage was because it was a CHANCE to slow the enemy, and they were looking to remove the RNG elements that weren't crits.

What he said, but also because they made Phage into a sticking item that allows you to speed up to them. Since Riot changed Phage into a speed up with each auto-attack, they removed it from an item that slows them down with each auto-attack.

disregardableJan 19, 20151 votes

That is a fantastic idea.

DJ SiamakJan 19, 20151 votes

That change would nerf Singed and probably also Vladimir and then just make Rylai's way more cancer on any ranged mage who already used it well.

Rylai's violates the design issues of Frozen Mallet to a much greater extent, but only on a select few champions.

RebonackJan 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0tfT6tra,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-19T18:25:02.703+0000)

That change would nerf Singed and probably also Vladimir and then just make Rylai's way more cancer on any ranged mage who already used it well.

Rylai's violates the design issues of Frozen Mallet to a much greater extent, but only on a select few champions.

Last I checked they're replacing the Blasting Want with Whisp. AP goes down a little, gains %Move for more kiting. Why would that be a nerf to Singed? If anything it would be a buff since his ratios are so awful.

DJ SiamakJan 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Last I checked they're replacing the Blasting Want with Whisp. AP goes down a little, gains %Move for more kiting. Why would that be a nerf to Singed? If anything it would be a buff since his ratios are so awful.

I thought it was gonna be AP/MS last time I read it.

Either way, still a shitty idea.

qetzelJan 19, 20151 votes

At one point, Phage was a component of Frozen Mallet. I think they changed the build path when they changed Phage for consistency (Making yourself move faster - slowing an enemy is an odd transition).

Yandere CarryJan 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

-why can't Frozen Mallet built out of Phage?

Because They would feel the need to make FM have same passive as Triforce. Phage used to build into Frozen Mallet, but it had the same passive as triforce. Returning it and matching passives causes the same issue Triforce/Iceborn Gauntlet have. The issue there is with the sheen. Why would you go Iceborn for the slow when you're getting almost have the sheen damage. It's not worth.

cFlameJan 20, 20151 votes

They should just replace Frozen mallet with Entropy Hammer thingy, since you cant slow enemies without the active. Maybe not, since Riot would need to nerf certain bruisers.