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@Riot Balance Solutions for Plants (Open for new/other Ideas too!)

Lord Desert··3 votes·1,010 views

As you may have noticed from the feedback, the plants are not liked by the community. So lets have a discussion to change that, or better, improve it so it is liked!!!

First of, this is NOT a rant. I personly dont like the plants, but they may have some potential. DONT REMOVE SMITE CAMP BUFFS!!!!, change them a little, ok. BUT DONT REMOVE THEM! (everything giving Hp back is like removing it).

This will be a very long post, with a short TL;DR at the beginning, so you dont need to scroll to the bottom for the most important stuff. Lets start:

Short TL;DR

  • dont remove Camp Smite Buffs, small changes ok
  • Plants grow better/stronger over time(~1min)
  • can be "rescued" by enemy team(in those 30sec withered), so respawn(~3min) cut in half
  • HealPlant: 1. debuff if eaten for a couple of sec(10-20 minimun) (debuff: Healreduction/ Regenreduction/ Dmgreduction vs champs) 2. Heal- /Mana Values 3. Grows bigger(more fruit/better fruit) over time 4. Should have long/very long respawn time!
  • BombPlant: 1. Dmg vs champs 2. Has a delay if attacked by ranged(0.5-1s), cant be "activated" by hurrican bolts 3. small Slow vs user, and a little speedbuff for the enemy(if knocked away, not enough to catch up) 4. grows bigger over time(more dmg& Knockbackdistance)
  • VisionPlant: 1. remove it, to broken for corrdinated teams.** OR** 2. grows bigger over time. If small half visionradius/lenght and no wards shown. If Big, like it is right now. 3. can be completly countered/removed by sweeping lens, shortend(atleast halfed) by pink, oracles and raptor buff 4. location is very important on this one

Quick reminder:

  • spawn start: ~ 1 - 2:30min
  • respawn: 3min for BombPlants, rest should be the same but is unknown
  • can be seen 30 sec before spawn
  • 1 spawn per typ?/rotation?, 2 max availbe per time per QUADRANT
  • closer to lanes at~15(25 for BombPlants)
  • leave a "withered" plant behind, up to 30 sec after use (like wards)

"Official" spawnlocations: http://i.imgur.com/EhgvgIu.jpg My coloured version: http://i.imgur.com/caHnVTJ.jpg (my assumtions about the plant locations)

END of the "short" TL;DR:

DONT REMOVE CAMP SMITE BUFFS!!! Just dont do it! It removes alot of strategic depth, you only have 2 charges, mid/late game targets: raptors, gromp, wolf, vs champions and epic monster smite 6 possible targets to smite! with your "hp back" changes, which are close to useless mid/late game(same with red and blue smite benefits) those get down to: epic monster, vs champions..... 2 total, and the vision jungle item down to only 1 xD... SO DONT DO IT!!!

Extra: if you smite scuttle, duration of the zone is x1.5/x2 krug buff: if you hit a monster with an ability, it gets revealed for 2-3 sec.

Changes to the Plants

Explaination(can be skipped):

Those Plants give way to much power, with no counter/risk to them, and they give those to fast! Delaying their fullpower is a better stratigic choice!(or even makes it a stratigic choice in the first place) And these effects are extremly strong. But Why? On paper they are not that strong!

The problem is WHO is going to get them in most cases? Lane and Jungle Bullies!

  • Give them extra heal/mana is pretty bad! Or the ability to negate bad trades/decisions. Some are even balanced around their manacosts!
  • Give them big arial ward spotting/clearing and the team on the defensiv can forget about warding. Possibly 4- 6 Plants up to 8 Plants can be used for wardclearing!!!!
  • Even the bomb can be used for towerdives or gapclosing, FULL TEAM Towerdives/gapclosers.

And what does the team get which is slighty behind/outpressured?

  • Possible escapes via BombPlant, but you can screw this up. And they are very likely to be cleared when the enemy wards/goes for deep vision
  • Possible easier steals, because of the Vision form the VisionPlant.

So... I personly dont think, that this will make the game heathlier. And roaming sups/invading junglers can destroy the Vision- and BombPlants easily...

**There are some serious changes NESSECARY to make it somewhat balanced and a "stratigic" decision! **

Changes

  • Respawn time of 3 mins seems ok, but could be increased, specialy for the Heal- and the VisionPlant!
  • The Plants can be "rescued" by the enemy team, if they go to the used Plant withhin the 30sec "wither" timer! This halfs the respawn time and respawns the plant at this location. ** The Healplant cant be rescued!**
  • Locations of the VisionPlant moved a bit deeper in the Jungle, so adcs cant activate them over walls with a firecannon

Reason: if a roaming sup or jungle destroys them, the other team can rescue their plants, but only if they check them in this time, but the enemy still has a time window where there is no plant. Possibly the respawned plant may be grown up instantly, but this is totaly optional.

Healplant(aka. Honeyfruit):

Jung:

  • give a healing-/regen-/dmg vs champ reduced Debuff for a couple of secounds, 10-20s MINIMUM! (does not affect the healing from this plant)
  • Heal and Mana values are obiviously always up for balance, but flat + %missing sounds good.
  • Respawn should be the highest (4-5min), but can stay at 3min for consistency if wanted

Grown up:

  • grow time can be between 30s- 2min, I like 1min the most.
  • x1.5 Heal/Mana Value (ether more per fruit or more fruits total) (can be x2 too, but i dont like it)
  • No debuffs (exept for the slow) (fruits get eatable :P)

BombPlant(aka. Blast Cones):

Jung:

  • does Dmg vs champs, No for free escapes/engages!!!
  • If triggered by a ranged AA, the plant should explode after a short delay 0.5 - 1sec. Because ranged Guys can knock melees, who run away, INTO them, which is not nice. And the plant should not be triggered by hurrican bolts.
  • a short slow vs user and a short movement buff for the enemy, IF they got knocked back. Should be around 40% slow for 0.5 sec and 30% increase for 0.5 sec.

Grown up:

  • More dmg and bigger knockback distance (bigger booom)
  • possibly no dmg vs user but this does not make much sense :/
  • possibly no slow for user and no buff for enemy

VisionPlant(aka. Scrying Blooms):

  • reveal duration is halved by a oracles & pink ward & raptor buff
  • completly removed on target by a sweeping lens

Jung:

  • half the range(~2000-2500)
  • no ward detection/reveal

Grown up:

  • 4000 range
  • reveals wards

I still dont like this plant because it counteres everything you do to deny the enemy vision... they just hit this plant and get a free, ward detecting hawkshot... which can be used against a losing team to futher destroy any vision... I see some serious balance issues with this plant! My version is atleast x4 times better balanced then the test version...

Extra Plant (suggested by Doomyous)

ShieldPlant(favors tanks) Jung:

  • gives 10% Mr&Ar for 2 min
  • locations: Baron&drake pit, or near red river ramp and at blue 4way cross

Grown up:

  • gives a 15%bonusHp shield for 2 min

Those are possible (and some even needed) changes towards the plants to make them somewhat balanced... I still am not a fan of the plants! But it might be worth a try. BUT DONT REMOVE SMITE BUFFS!!! I dont even care about the little bit of RNG added, but the plants are in their current version way to strong/abuseable!

If you have other suggestion/ideas comment them! We can discuss, maybe finetune, them and included them here! I will do a changelog for them, too. So why are you still reading this? Give me your ideas! Now! (but pls think a little bit about balance beforehand xD)

Edit: Sandboxmode light aka. "Practice Tool" YEAAH!!!

Changelog:

  • ShieldPlant, gives +10% ar/mr, + 15%bonusHp shield if grown up
  • added locations of ShieldPlant
  • some Plant spawnpoint moved a bit deeper in the jungle (All suggested by Doomyous)

31 Comments

Oleandervine2 votes

You can't offer solutions for systems that aren't even being tested yet.

Lord Desert1 votes

Well they showed us something and this has problems, big problems to be honest. So it is possible to create solutions for those :P But these are ideas to influence the design of them. So is that wrong or a bad thing to do? I dont think so :D

Edit: Dont downvote him! Its a legit question!

LostFr0st2 votes

We haven't even really seen them in action yet...[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Lord Desert1 votes

That doesnt keep me from imageing and analysing every possible sitiuation where they can useless, usefull or even broken/op :P we got most numbers and values from the rioters(many meddler, love you for this, if you read this meddler :D!) And If this influences the balance of them, then this post has done its job!

Whats your standpoint to them? broken? weak? totaly waste of time& effords?

LostFr0st2 votes

No comment right now. They look interesting I guess? I'll know for sure once I test them next week. Trying not to prejudge them really :/

Lord Desert1 votes

you got a pbe acc? why does everybody have them but not me xD :'C damn it

LostFr0st1 votes

Waited like 2 years in queue; got it last year preseason (that's when they invite most people). They just cleaned us a bunch of inactive pbe accounts last week so they are more than likely prepping for an invite wave.

Lord Desert1 votes

Oh can I get you to test stuff for me? Yes? thanks :D ok test lane/jungle bullies try to get the HealPlant if you lost hp/made bad trades, Bombplant cant be tested that much, only maybe the range of them(try to jump over walls near turrets) and use the vision plant like this: a) clearing every ward: use plant and kill as much as you can and then sweep the rest of the unknown area. in combination of pinks the enemy should not be able to get any vision in this area(use visionplant BEFORE you place pinks, for stealhier pinks and better ward clearing with pinks&sweeper. b) avoiding wards for ganks, dont try to kill them just avoid them for ganks, should be super usefull to get kills.

if you are ahead use visionplant against the team in their own jungle and safe your plant for visioncontrol at drake baron only

LostFr0st1 votes

You're hilarious XD

I'll come back here lol. If you haven't applied yet yourself you should, since there should be a wave soon and amount of time in queue doesn't matter.

Lord Desert1 votes

I would love to get one finally, think i tryed to get one for 2-3 years :/

Well atleast you enjoy to have some fun, most of the others downvote everything whitout even giving any reasons. well cant help that :P I think they will be on the pbe at the 11th or 9th of november. So its still quiet some time till we can try the plants out

LostFr0st1 votes

Make sure you're still signed up and you have your email verified; sometimes you need to apply again/ something happens with the site and it'll act like you haven't applied yet.

No, they'll be live then XD They should hit Pbe next week I think.

Rip Rengo 20161 votes

I'm all for riot trying to spice up the game and keep it from feeling like a game of chess.. but that doesn't mean bad ideas should be implemented (forcefully) just for the sake of change.

Lord Desert1 votes

What do you think is the worst part of this?

  • smite buffs gone(changed to hp back)
  • rng spawns timers(on fixed locations)
  • the plants itself (heal, vision, random escapes etc.) ?
Rip Rengo 20161 votes

I think the plants are just too much for Summoners Rift in general.. More doesn't always mean better. There are better options to spice up the game. I feel like it appeals to the casual group of players more than the competitive. Because if i'm just playing for fun, its what ever.. But these kinds of additions on Summoners Rift is just silly to me.

I'm not sure how i feel about the smite buff being gone, I think it'll be fine without it, I think a variety of junglers can still be played either way. I think invade junglers need some kind of "buff" or incentive to invade again. I'm not saying this change will make it easier but it could. I think camps need to spawn quicker similar to how season 4 was but maybe not quite as fast. Right now if u invade and find no enemy jungler, or no camps, you wasted ur time, and its more likely that happends with long respawn timers.

Lord Desert1 votes

Yeah i can feel what you say, those plants add just another minigame to the game itself, thats quiet tricky. I think if they remove the smite buffs, it will kill alot of stratigic thinking in the jungle! I mean from 6 possible things to safe/use your smite for down to 2? That doesnt sound good to me

Rip Rengo 20161 votes

I mean, the vision camp is the only 1 worth smiting really after a certain point in the game, and maybe wolves if you need vision on that side of the map. Everything else has such a small bonus or impact its pretty obsolete. I know what you're saying though. It does feel bland thinking about how it was in season 4, at least then camps spawned fast enough for you to nonstop farm, so it wasn't really boring. But now with camps spawning very slow with no additional buffs for farming them, i can bet it'll feel really stale..

Lord Desert1 votes

Atleast we have 1-2(3)options (gromp is pretty good on tanky junglers) + safe smite for drake/baron and champions. If they change that its only usefull vs champs and baron/drake... The heal is not big enough to be of use and you need to be catched/poked, But survive that, and having still 2 smite charges and need a camp to be up to even make use of the heal. These conditions are way to specific and the heal does not even do much :D

And thats why i would love to see some gromp buff buffs and possibly even a scuttle buff(x1.5/x2 the duration of the speedup/ward zone) What do you think about my changes tho? are they helping to balance the plants better or not?

Rip Rengo 20161 votes

Not really, i just think the entire plant idea is terrible. sorry lol.

Lord Desert1 votes

Shot throu the heart. Well atleast we both think that the plants in there current state are terrible. Thats something i guess? :D

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Just my two cents...

I don't have too many issues with just giving health back for smiting camps, and it actually is quite helpful late game. Right now, if it's late game, I don't even barely think about krugs or gromp unless there is literally nothing else to do. Those buffs don't do anything for me late game. Granted, I like having Wolf smite or Raptor smite to help with vision but let's say I'm the jungler and I get caught out but manage to stay alive but I just am chunked on health. Right now, unless I have crazy good sustain, I just have to base. If I can smite a camp or two and get my health back to be able to stay and contest the objective, then I'm happier and I feel like getting major objective is a little bit harder then just chunking out the jungler

Lord Desert1 votes

I agree with the krug buff, but do you know the gromp buff? its 5% of your bonus hp of 3 sec, thats pretty nice late game, but nobody notice it :/

For the heal: normaly you clear the jungle camps in secs, so you dont need a heal. Early its nice, but mid to late its useless in mostcases atleast! Dont you think so? And you will only get 100+10% back(likely to be nerfed) so 1 or 2 camps are not enough, if your missing 3/4 of your hp! thats only 25% and then you dont have smite ready for the steal on the drake/baron! Keep that in mind.

What do you like the most of these changes/ideas?

Guyy Fieri1 votes

You didn't even listen to what I said.

For late game, it isn't to help with the clear to help when enemy champions chunk you out so that you can sustain on the map a little better.

Lord Desert1 votes

yeah but those 100+10% for 1 smite charge, is not enough to get you back. with 2000hp, you get 300 back. 600 for both of your charges. thats a bit less then 1/3 of your hp. This will not make much of a diffrence even if you used all of your smite charges, which you will not do if you want to fight/steal! With 4k hp its 500/1000. only 1/4 maximum. 500? not enough! And its likely to get nerfed too :/ And the only situation where its usefull is, if you got poked and survived it and your camps are still up!

sidenode: red gave you 20% of your max hp for 1 smite charge back and you get the mini warmogs if you get the redbuff.

Edit: and now think about the vision from the wolf, the ward clearing from the raptors and even the dmg from the gromp! I dont think that little bit of hp, even if you factor in masteries& items is a bad tradeoff for the limited "usefullness" and the small amount of heal.

Doomyous1 votes

Im not a fan of those plants ether, but I like your changes! But what about another typ of plant? maybe a Armor and Mr buff? a temporary shield based on max hp? And yeah they should 1000% definitly NOT remove those Smite buffs! the crug and scuttle thing seems good too.

The balancing around jung and grown up should help alot! The plants may be not abuseable by the average guys but teams and high elo guys might be able too. Vision and lanepressure is extreme important there, as far as i know. Im not there yet xD But its way better balanced in your version. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Your TL;DR is way to long xD No offense

Lord Desert1 votes

All my TL;DRs are way to long :D buts its a big post so excuse it this time :P I should do a TL;DR in a TL;DR xD

Finally someone who agrees with me xD Fellow EUW brother! hmm Tanks sure struggeled a bit so far, a flat+ % mr/ar or shield buff should be reasonalbe! But the map is already filled and the plants are basicly only another minigame. And adding more would overload it to much! But i guess 1 additional might be able to be put in there too.

The balancing was really focused on possible abuse from team or high elo guys, and they where to strong there in my eyes. The average player will not even notice a difference at all :D visioncontroll is not like pressing r with veigar, it does not singlehandely win you the game, but it will influence decisions heavily!

What do you think about the spawn locations? Btw I will include this Idea in the post, seems to be a nice addition!

Doomyous1 votes

Wow, did you made an extra changelog for that?! Nice i take it xD Btw I love those names: HealPlant, BombPlant, VisionPlant xDD Im not so good with names and i keep forgetting the real names over and over xD

About the locations: I think they are mostly ok, keeping in mind, that some are restricted by the 15/25 min mark. The VisionPlants(xD) seem a bit to close to the river/pits so they are to easly cleared, moving them abit more in the jungle would be better, i think. Maybe the one near the 4way cross at the blue should be moved more towards the 4way cross. And our ShieldPlant could be ether at the 4way blue cross and on the red side at the ramp to the river, at the closest visionplant spawnpoint! Or we could make it spawn near/before drake/baronpit for some extra spicyness xD

Lord Desert1 votes

Im very proud about the creativity of my namechoices :P xD

I like those locations! the drake/baron pit seems pretty interesting, that could be funny! I can agree to your suggestions! The vsion plants seem to be a little to close to the walls, a cait or alot of guys with a firecannon may hit them over the walls, which is not good!

Any Ideas for better/more interesting "grown up" buffs? for the shieldplant or the others?

Doomyous1 votes

No not really, The heal and visionplant seem fine, only the bomb and our shield plant may need something better when grown up :/ But the problem is we cant give them too much power when grown up and they need to be somewhat usefull while still beeing jung! Anything that i can think of makes them ether useless at jung or way to strong at grown up [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Lord Desert1 votes

Hmm maybe if the ShieldPlant grows up, it gets the shield too, we cant just double the ar/mr buff, cause then apcs&adcs want them too. extra mr/ar is never wrong xD I thougth something about this lines here: jung: you get 10%ish ar/mr(maybe lowered) and grown up: get a 5%max hp shield which activate after 8(or 6) secs in combat! lasts 3 sec, and the "buff" from the plant lasts 1 min or 30sec along those lines

How about that?

Doomyous1 votes

I like that![slayer-pantheon-thumbs] 10ish means up to 6 mr and 7ar with qss or maw. sound good to me. The shield is tricky, i get your idea that squhishy cant make use of them, because they normaly dont survive 8 or 6 secs in combat xD and even then 5% is not much thats ~100 and 200 for tanks, i think we can buff that up to 10%! 200 squshiy, 400 tank. That has meaningfull impact, for how long you survived! duration can be up to 5 sec(it will not last that much anyway) and the buff should last 1 min can be 2or3 tho, 30 sec seems a bit short to me, given the locations of the plants. 2 min should be best xD

Lord Desert1 votes

Ok, Deal! 2mins and 10% shield. im off, watching quaters may be back inbetween but surely be after that edit: just had the idea to change that to bonusHp!!! so it only favors tank! And we dont need the in combat stuff(could get complicated to implement)

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