"All of CertainlyT's champs were designed with only fun in mind, so having no counterplay is okay"

TurquoiseYoshi··11 votes·727 views

But when there are good examples of champions with counterplay, and who are fun without being OP, why doesn't CertainlyT seem to grasp the concept? Sure, they're fun to play, but they also need to be fun to play against, not in a sense of "Wow this guy is so weak I can trash him" but more of a "Well, I could do X, Y, or Z to counter this ability, so which should I choose that would give me the biggest reward?" A good example is actually Blitz's hook (in laning).

As a Blitz, nothing feels better than hitting a hook and sending an enemy to their doom. As an enemy, you have to stay away from the hook. So you stand behind minions to let them block the hook. If you stay safe in lane and stay behind minions, Blitz will eventually have to do something to make his hook useful. So he moves towards the enemy and around minions. However, when he does that, he opens himself up to the enemy. Let's say he hits his hook, but he had moved so far out of position that his ADC cannot follow up on it, or maybe he himself then gets CC'd and killed. There, as a Blitz, you can judge positives vs negatives and choose for yourself what to do. As an enemy, you choose between positives vs negatives and decide what to counter with. This kind of mind game makes Blitz generally balanced in laning. (Late game, he gets kinda crazy with blind hooks or hooks from somewhere you can't see, but that isn't my point.)

Let's compare that to one of CertainlyT's champs, Yasuo. Most of what Yasuo does has short range. He needs to be close to you to hit things. That promotes counterplay in champions such as Fizz, who have no huge gap closer, but not for Yasuo. He has the ability to dash through enemy minions on 0 cooldown. That gives him an enormous gap closer and an ability that can get him towards (for harass) or away (for escape) from these ranged enemies. Additionally, even if he stands still, he has his wind wall to block a ranged attack. It can deny CS or just protect Yasuo from that last hit. Even if you do land something on him, his passive shield can protect him from the damage. Lastly, he has his 3rd Q + his ult to move directly into a champions if he hits a reasonably large skillshot. So he has four ways to counter his main weakness, being a close ranged fighter. And before you ask, yes, his abilities do go through minions.

In general, CertainlyT's champs are all like that, with strengths, weaknesses, and things that cover up weaknesses without really lowering strengths. These kits are things that cannot just be renumbered, the entire kit would have to be reworked, and such a new champion shouldn't need that treatment. Yorick was released 4 years ago. His kit being broken is because Riot was a pretty small company then, and was just starting to figure out how to balance things properly. So it's fine that he is getting a rework because of how generally broken his kit is, as it either needs to be terrible and unusable, or decent-good and overpowered. The same needs to happen to CertainlyT's champs, but they are so new that it can't and shouldn't, at least until everyone else that needs a rework gets one, which could take years.

In general, I'm just trying to point out truly why CertainlyT's champs are all so powerful and hated, and what the meaning of counterplay truly is.

Upvote and comment.

Please.

34 Comments

luckmallory5 votes

"Using quotes to power your argument that were never said"

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

I've seen many people defend his champs by saying that they are all fun, and that's what matters most, OP or not. Which is kinda true in a sense, but also doesn't make any sense for a game that goes through constant balancing.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

To be honest let's just have certainlyt design every champion so that they're all fun :P

Indominus Blade4 votes

All CertainlyT champs have counterplay, get a clue. On top of that, they are some of the most fun to play and fun to play against champions in the game. Don't cry just because you can't sidestep that Thresh hook.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

Me: Makes point about Blitz's hook being fair You: Claims that I can don't like Thresh because I can't dodge his hook

Thresh is OP because he has his hook, but also has methods of peeling, shielding, and multi-target CC. You can't even say if he's a tank support or not, because he has so many kit elements that work towards the different types of supports.

Yosuke Apperu3 votes

I'd fight a thresh over a blitz any dayyy. Thresh's hook is way easier to dodge. He also has to pull himself into danger.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

...I think you messed up. You started off implying you dislike Thresh more, then you start saying Thresh is easier to avoid and puts himself in danger.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

I did mess up xD

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Except Blitz's QER combo is all he has. Thresh has peel, multi-target hard CC, and shielding to go along with his hook.

Yosuke Apperu3 votes

You just mentioned an entire combo and said that's all he has.. It also is far burstier than thresh and blitz pulls are way worse.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Blitz has the ability to burst one target down. That's it. That's all he can ever do. His entire kit is made to be able to get a pick on one enemy. Thresh also can get that pick, and still be able to peel for his entire team.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

Well that makes it a 5v4 then. Everyone is good at their own thing, for example. Blitz is better at catching people out of position and has better chase than thresh. If anything tone down blitz damage and give him more utility to work with, also slow his grab down a bit.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Yes, but say Thresh has complete control over what he wants to do. If he wants to engage, he engages. If he wants to peel, he peels. If he wants to CC the entire enemy team, he CC's the entire enemy team. Blitz can hook someone and kill them if he has a nearby ally. That is all he can ever do. Ever. Do you want to peel? Well go f*** yourself. Blitz can't do that.

Yosuke Apperu2 votes

If someone runs past you to try and kill your carry, and your blitz.. you combo them. You've just peeled.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Except Blitz has a cooldown on his combo. A decently high one. He can't just do everything with the combo.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

Blitzcrank max rank cooldowns: q-16, e-5, r-30 Thresh max rank cooldowns: q-12(9 if you hit something with it, still way easier to dodge than blitz), e-9 seconds, R-130... What was that about a decently high cool down? XD blitz can ult 4 times to every thresh ult. Like I said each champ has their strengths and weaknesses.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

The main one is his Q. Without it, he is basically useless. His ult really isn't that good, it just does damage and a short silence. Thresh's ult is not a huge part of his power, as he still gets a big AoE CC area with his E. You can definitely win a fight without it.

RogueWill1 votes

Really that is only true if you are alone. The CC coming fron Thresh hook alone is far superior since is bascially a 1.5 sec stun which pulls you, meaning that at that time the enemy ADC will pull 2 aa + any damage ability that he/she has, After that Thresh, will most likely pull himself in and Flay you, meaning another 0.5 sec on cc coming from the knock up plus a moderate slow which will alow thresh to proc the flay passive. From there (if you are still alive) you can follow with your Box for more damage and a heavy slow isolating complete the target. On a 2v2 scenario thresh is far more scary than blitz.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

Let me ask you one question.

What is counter-play to you?

Is it Pokèmon, where Fire beats Grass and loses to Water?

Or is it Soul Calibur, where you've learned Nightmare's fighting pattern and react accordingly?

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

I would say it's closer to Pokemon's definition. Something that allows for both sides to have the ability to enjoy themselves, while still maintaining good balance and creative differences. Pokemon isn't the best example, but it's closer than Soul Caliber, which is the same thing as saying "Just learn to dodge the skillshot".

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

{quoted}

Pokemon isn't the best example, but it's closer than Soul Caliber, which is the same thing as saying "Just learn to dodge the skillshot".

No, Soul Calibur is the same thing as saying, "It might take you more work to pull it off, but you can beat your opponent with a disadvantageous pick."

With Pokèmon, you have to specifically build for Type A to not lose to Type B, or get extremely lucky with how they've built their Type B. You can pull off wins at a disadvantage, but you need to know what's coming, pre-set and build for the occasion.

With Soul Calibur, it's entirely possible for Taki/Natsu to beat Nightmare, Sigfreid or Astaroth, but I can tell you as a Taki/Natsu player, that fight is a bitch to win. They all have ridiculous reach, and while not as fast as other fighters, they can still keep up with you pretty easily.

That's the difference.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

As a note, this entire argument is generally apples to oranges, as these are very different types of games.

With Pokemon, you use your strengths to either destroy enemy weaknesses or push your strength. Many Pokemon become strong because of how they do well against specific powerful Pokemon, kind of like how the SSB:Brawl tier list was mostly decided by many characters' matchups against Meta Knight. Pokemon also has many random ways that one Pokemon can be different than another, but also have many ways where they can be similar, so it's an awkward comparison.

I'm not a huge Soul Caliber fan, so all I really know about it is that Nightmare is the best character in the game.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

This entire arguement is closer to Apples to yoshi's imo

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

That joke would have been funnier if you were arguing in my place

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

well thank ye mate, it seems to have flown over his head :P

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

I'm not sure what that means.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Too bad all the yasou mains have come to downvote you. Sadly you're spot on. I can't wait for his champions to be reworked and ruined. Kalista, yasou, fizz, & ekko and are flat out frustrating to play against; though with their juggernaut changes, garen is too.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Thanks :D

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

You're welcome, I'd rather have tank-meta over assassin-meta anyday. At least you can buy a cheap item to ignore cc, there's no items to help against telefragging.

UltraSceptile2 votes

Yasuo's kit is very difficult to balance and can be annoying, but then again I bet a lot of people find Viktor and Azir a pain in the ass to fight against, let's rework them too right?

Like tell me Azir's weakness.

He has

Mobility

Instant hard CC

A shield.

Poke

Range

Massive sustained damage.

We should also delete or rework Azir.

Everyone bandwagons on CT's champs, Yasuo was strong but he got nerfed like 10 times. Right now Darius with double Q bug and Kalista are broken, everything else is fine. If you think they're not fun to play against, well guess what, every champ in the game is hated by some portion of the League community.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Azir is kinda alike to CertainlyT's champs, but not with the same seal of being one of his champs. He also kinda is both rewarded for moving towards his enemy, and away from his enemy in different parts of his kit. And it isn't really defending a weakness, it's just weird design.

It's funny that you brought up Viktor, a champion heavily annoyed/countered by Yasuo.

UltraSceptile1 votes

{quoted}

Azir is kinda alike to CertainlyT's champs, but not with the same seal of being one of his champs. He also kinda is both rewarded for moving towards his enemy, and away from his enemy in different parts of his kit. And it isn't really defending a weakness, it's just weird design.

It's funny that you brought up Viktor, a champion heavily annoyed/countered by Yasuo.

Viktor beats Yasuo unless yasuo is much better than Viktor. All vik has to do is not die for 15 minutes (not difficult because yasuo shoves the wave and Viktor can just stay back CSing with E and low mana Q), and then bam he oneshots Yasuo.

In lane he also does roughly 1/4 of yasuo's health with a laser and proccing his shield off is easy because Viktor's Q is just point and click. Unless Yasuo dodges almost all the lasers Viktor wins lane, but if he does dodge all the lasers he's a really good player with good reaction timing and was going to win that match up no matter what champ he played.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

That's why I said annoyed, because if Yasuo just moves a bit forward and blocks a lazer it really pisses the Viktor off.

Mr Broken Wings2 votes

His champions actually have a lot of ways of counterplay, more than most other champions.

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