Cass W should probably do more damage.

Wizzleboom·Dec 18, 2014·38 votes·2,851 views

It is currently horribly weak. It's a small aoe circle of poison. It's not like your opponent is going to stand in in for more than 1 second.

It's horrible right now. Wish I could refund this clunky abomination of a rework.

Also rant about the passive: why use milestones? Why not just have an infinitely scaling perk like nasus/veigar/sion?

At least that would make it seem like something cool. It's retarded that at 500 stacks OH HAI I HAVE MORE POWERADE NAOW is her passive. Horrid design.

I'd rather have teemo poison. At least it hits for something. Teemo is more of a freaking poison mage ffs. Mind blown that this reworker has a job.

43 Comments

yellowbricksDec 18, 201413 votes

The rework is terrible, the buffs are meaningless when the champ is reduced to an unfun stacking E spamming machine with no other build path because her E is 99% of her kit's entire damage output, the other useless garbage skills only being vehicles to get the E spam done. Such a one dimensional shit job, smh.

Pollyanna WrightDec 18, 201410 votes

{quoted}

The rework is terrible, the buffs are meaningless when the champ is reduced to an unfun stacking E spamming machine with no other build path because her E is 99% of her kit's entire damage output, the other useless garbage skills only being vehicles to get the E spam done. Such a one dimensional shit job, smh.

New Patch notes:

Cass Q and W deleted

Cass can only be picked if Singed/Teemo/Twitch are picked.

SaiannaDec 18, 20146 votes

You frogot about that part in patchnotes:

MIasma now heals enemy champions

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20141 votes

It doesn't even work with twitch (he has venom)

Your top laner needs to have one of the two most obnoxious champions in the game.

Pollyanna WrightDec 20, 20141 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't even work with twitch (he has venom)

Your top laner needs to have one of the two most obnoxious champions in the game.

I know it's 3 people who have it, but I don't think it's GP...

ElphrihaimDec 20, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pollyanna Wright,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0VVYypxN,comment-id=0006000000010000,timestamp=2014-12-20T00:20:59.092+0000)

I know it's 3 people who have it, but I don't think it's GP...

The champions that have abilities that count as 'poison' for the purposes of Cassiopeia's Twin Fang reset are:

Cassiopeia (Noxious Blast, Miasma), Singed (Poison Trail), Teemo (Toxic Dart), Twitch (Deadly Venom)

However I believe that Twitch has to have a certain number of stacks before it counts?

5G8Nri0B54Dec 18, 201412 votes

Her Q AND W should do a butt ton more damage. Especially in the scaling area.

AbyssphereDec 18, 20148 votes

Miasma is my favourite move on her kit, it's horrible for it to be so bad :/ I mean what is cooler than a slowly expanding toxic cloud of death? Not much, but even the full 7 seconds gets a wave of minions down to what, 66% health?

I can vaguely understand what they did to her Q, though I still think .45 is a terrible ratio, but gutting her W like that is ridiculous. 10 damage at rank 1 is nothing short of a joke and 30 damage at rank 5 is nothing better either. It literally did more damage at rank 2 pre-rework than it does at rank 5 right now.

But it won't get buffed, because Stashu doesn't believe in her poisons doing any damage unless there's at least 5 restrictions attached. That is basically the theme of this rework. "You can do lots of damage with your poisons... if you jump through 500 hoops and choose to believe that the damage Twin Fang is doing is actually from your Q and W!"

Done25Dec 18, 20145 votes

I personally think they should move the slow over to her Q (remove the silly speed boost) and just make W a slowly expanding cloud of death. Like 100 (+0.5 AP) per second at rank 5 or something similar.

ThryaleDec 18, 20141 votes

Eh, I don't mind the speed boost on Q. It synergizes well with rylais, letting her kite well. If her q slowed instead, rylais wouldn't be nearly as good on cass. (It'd still be good, just not as good)

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20141 votes

50% AP per second is way too much. Maybe give it 25%, so if they leave right away, it deals 50% AP, which is decent, but if they stay inside it, they take 225% AP over 9 seconds, which makes them pay attention and stay out of it.

Q also needs to deal at least 60% AP over 3 seconds. At least then it would have reasonable damage for being a short cd skillshot. Annie's Q has the same cooldown, is targeted, and deals 80% AP scaling damage. Why does Cass's Q deal just over half that, while being a skillshot and damaging over time?

WizzleboomDec 18, 20144 votes

In literally 1 minute I have thought of a cooler move for her E. Damage doubles for each second something is in it. Give me a job.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 18, 20149 votes

Thinking of an E better than the current one is hardly an achievement :)

ThryaleDec 18, 20143 votes

do you mean miasma or body-sized snake fangs?

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20141 votes

You're thinking of W, btw

E is twin-fang spam

MathbalnaseDec 18, 20143 votes

Or they could leave it as a 'utility spell' and increase the utility accordingly. For instance: Slow builds by X% per second with continued exposure. If slow reaches 100%, becomes root. Slow decays to base value over 2 seconds after last exposure.

Or, targets poisoned by Miasma deal X% reduced damage, decaying over 2 seconds after last exposure

Or, targets poisoned by Miasma have their vision reduced by X% for each second of exposure, decaying over 2 seconds after last exposure.

Effects like this would also make fine 'power-ups' if Stashu could be convinced to abandon the %AP amp but not the evolving passive.

Edit: more damage would also be fine. The point is that W should have more of a purpose than enabling E.

chumblerDec 18, 20148 votes

{quoted}

Or they could leave it as a 'utility spell' and increase the utility accordingly. For instance: Slow builds by X% per second with continued exposure. If slow reaches 100%, becomes root. Slow decays to base value over 2 seconds after last exposure.

Or, targets poisoned by Miasma deal X% reduced damage, decaying over 2 seconds after last exposure

Or, targets poisoned by Miasma have their vision reduced by X% for each second of exposure, decaying over 2 seconds after last exposure.

Effects like this would also make fine 'power-ups' if Stashu could be convinced to abandon the %AP amp but not the evolving passive.

Or, revert this whole stupid fucking rework and apologize for it.

MathbalnaseDec 18, 20142 votes

I wouldn't hold out hope.

chumblerDec 18, 20145 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't hold out hope.

I long ago stopped having hope that anyone at Riot is competent.

AnidanDec 18, 20142 votes

I'll take that accusation and raise you an IronStylus. (note: opinion) Now if you mean balance and design team solely, then.. you got me there.

That said, he's part of the art team. Not much he can do to help us against the crappy rework.

HeadHonchkrowDec 18, 20142 votes

IronStylus Teh Parrot and his crew(KateyKhaos) But literally everyone else is incompetent

SaevumDec 18, 20142 votes

Or, revert this whole stupid fucking rework and apologize for it.

I love that line, even if i just see it in every Cass thread.

L7xLoTekDec 18, 20141 votes

Ooh, I really like the escalating slow into decaying slow on a poison mage idea.

WullfDec 18, 20143 votes

W - was never too strong.

And as for rework. Last update really hit the spot. She is much more better now. Though she might endure little bit more of damage.

Stacking is also much better, you are able to hit 500 stack by 30 min without breaking a sweat. These milestones are actually really similar to Viktor's "special item". And no one is whining about that.

ThryaleDec 18, 20147 votes

she my be more viable as far as gameplay balance is concerned, but she is still in a terrible position as far as character and gameplay design is concerned.

OrbvDec 18, 201410 votes

What are you talking about? Yes it was strong (not TOO strong though). They took away 60% of it's damage. Her old miasma within the full 7 seconds, 9 ticks of damage, used to be one of the highest damaging lvl 1 abilities, at 225 dmg without AP. If you have someone stand in your W for that long now you are within the lowest 20 lvl 1 damaging abilities, at 90 dmg without AP....that's like the polar opposite. Standing in Miasma used to be relatively scary, now you are just annoyed by the slow.

I also don't understand what you mean by the last update "hitting the spot" of the rework. The only thing that changed was more damage. The hatred for the rework was almost never about her damage. her playstyle now is still a pain, It's not fun, her theme is disgracefully ignored and they keep putting bandaid fixes on a blistering gash.

The milestones are very different from Viktor's.

He has a diverse playstyle. Having normal AP ratios on every single one of his abilities, using any of them hurt his opponent, and he can focus on using one as his main damage source the entire game. He has great wave clear, strong throughout every portion of a game, and his main identity is intact.

Cass has bad ratios on 2 of her 3 main abilities. She doesn't win lane ever. She has lost her gaming identity. She is bad at poking, bad at bursting. She used to be one of the scariest champions for her AoE and Single Target damage, you literally cannot focus on poking now because after 30 minutes, her Q and W damages are negligible.

Unlike Viktor, most players can't enjoy using her because her playstyle went from acceptable and unique to boring. Who feels better to stack with Cass, or Veigar? Veigar feels every stack.

serpensortia1Dec 19, 20142 votes

Veigar and Nasus you actually feel good about stacking. When you last hit properly, you get stronger. To stack with Cass, you have to harass the enemy with a skill that does no damage on its own. They didn't want her to be a lane bully, so they gut the damage. Well now people don't poke with Q, so they put the stacking mechanic in to force people to have the same playstyle without getting damage out of it. Seriously that was a horrible decision.

Plus her old passive worked much better for E spam. With it, you could continue to use E for a small amount of mana. Now it takes way too much mana to spam E, but it's the only way to deal damage.

Crystal CastlesDec 18, 20143 votes

It's threads like this one that completely derail the conversation and turn into a collection of people just wanting to complain about the rework.

KingsgraveDec 18, 20142 votes

Yeah her W feels on the weaker side of things. I'd like to see it buffed.

Maybe increase the damage per second to 20/30/40/50/60 from 10/15/20/25/30?

ThryaleDec 18, 20147 votes

that's not a buff, that's a revert of the nerf they gave her.

chumblerDec 18, 20146 votes

{quoted}

that's not a buff, that's a revert of the nerf they gave her.

It's sad that reverting the rework would be a buff for her.

Free RollDec 18, 20142 votes

you shouldj just be able to kill everyone by loading in as cass..... really enough with the fuking cass whining.

chumblerDec 18, 20148 votes

[{quoted}](name=Free Roll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0VVYypxN,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2014-12-18T07:48:00.002+0000)

you shouldj just be able to kill everyone by loading in as cass..... really enough with the fuking cass whining.

Yes, that's definitely what the people who hate the terrible Cassiopeia rework want. You've cracked the code.

ImHerVoiceDec 18, 20142 votes

old Ww had .55 scaling max rank. New has .45

Gutted.

Q now scales to .55 max rank. Old: .85 max rank

Gutted.

(or something like that, they've probably changed it since then or something)

TiowthyDec 18, 20141 votes

Agreed. I used to be able to kill people with w's poison, but I guess Stashu just wants it to be a utility skill. However, if it's not used for damage, it would be helpful if it is a root

ThryaleDec 18, 20141 votes

a stacking slow and/or amping dmg would be fine by mean. I think a root/stun would be overkill tho.

AquariusGineDec 18, 20141 votes

Would really be nice if Miasma felt a little more satisfying to use.

WizzleboomDec 18, 20143 votes

{quoted}

Would really be nice if Miasma felt a little more satisfying to use.

Agreed, it is a skillshot after all, so it should probably be a little more rewarding to land it.

KingsgraveDec 19, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, it is a skillshot after all, so it should probably be a little more rewarding to land it.

It's not even remotely difficult to land and applies a pretty hefty slow for 3 seconds if they even touch it

Not surprised riot is scared to buff it

JunkοDec 18, 20141 votes

Cass has a W? I just put points into Q or E instead lol. It's delayed, it's small when it lands and the slow is not noticeable. If you want poison land a spammable Q.

GunpointDec 18, 20141 votes

It's kept weaker because if she lays it down in a group of enemies it does damage to the entire enemy team while slowing them. In addition your ult can keep them in place, CC from your allies can keep them in place, and abilities like J4's ult can keep them in it. Remember it has a slow, so it's useful even without damage, this slow also increases the damage done by liandris. If the enemy stays in it for the whole duration it's got a 90% AP ratio. Although I'll admit it's unlikely they will stay in for the WHOLE duration, it's still effective at zoning, escaping, chasing, and waveclearing(late game anyway). Though the 500 stacks is a little ridiculous as it takes 50 minutes of poisons to get the +30% AP if I read correctly.