Winrate factors in everything (skill, popularity, power, weakness, champion difficulty, "fun")

Arabed··3 votes·730 views

What do I mean by this? Just like riot said, winrate doesn't mean balanced. Winrate is literally the amount of times a champion wins across all elos. Whatever the percentage is, it doesn't mean the champion is strong or weak because of all the factors I mentioned and other factors I didn't mention. Take lee sin for example. Mechanically intensive, all rounded, high mobility champion. Everyone complains about him yet his winrate is 45%. Why? Because if played correctly he can be really strong and if played incorrectly he can be useless. If all champions were like this, the game would be "balanced". I say this because the champions with high winrate are usually the brain dead champions like annie (yes annie is an easy champ don't get mad at me for pointing out the obvious). If every champ was as mechanically intense as lee sin there winrates would drop to the same as lee sin. Azir is another example. Low winrate but yet still played in the LCS. His mechanics aren't easy, and if you master them azir is really strong. The champions with higher winrate don't always mean they are stronger than those of lower winrates, it just means they win more because of all the factors above and other factors I am not aware of. Take Ahri and Ori as another example. Ahri with all her mobility and safe post-6 and all the damage she can do versus ori who has to watch her mana early, not much mobility unless you substitute it for damage, and needs athenes/morello first item for mana but has a really strong late game. It's no wonder ahri's winrate is way higher, ori is much harder to play, and not every game makes it to late game.

12 Comments

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Actually, if all champions had the same skill floor as Lee Sin, their win rates wouldn't all end up at 45%. Because that's mathematically impossible.

MadManApocalypse1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, if all champions had the same skill floor as Lee Sin, their win rates wouldn't all end up at 45%. Because that's mathematically impossible.

But it's statistically possible.

MadManApocalypse1 votes

Intro champions are made to win. Annie Ashe Garen Ryze Warwick Tryndamere Teemo MasterYi

Idk... but i'm beginning to see a pattern.

Skill champions are made to slaughter LeeSin Leblanc Kalista Bard Lulu Orianna

Anyways... i'll stop there.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Slamurai Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that is why most people have moved onto pick/ban rate as opposed to win rate. Neither values are perfect but pick/ban rate has historically always correlated extremely well with champion strength and is far and away the best easily accessible stat to use.

Judging champion strength off of ban rate is even dumber than judging them based off their win rate. People ban things for the following reasons listed in order of priority.

  1. Other people ban this champion.
  2. The champion recently did well or is banned in pro play.
  3. They're afraid of the champions potential power even if that potential is unlikely to be met. (Think Leblanc season 4).
  4. The champion is considered really annoying to play against.
  5. The champions is actually too strong to let the enemy team have.

People ban champs for all sorts of reasons but the champ actually being strong is well down the list.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Slamurai Jack1 votes

Darius still has a 80% ban rate, so he must be the best champion in the game still, right? That's where your logic goes. All you're saying is, The most OP champions are historically highly picked and banned and we know they were the most OP at the time because they were highly picked and banned. High pick and Ban rates merely correlate with what is considered to be the strongest by community consensus. Whether than consensus is anywhere near accurate is almost impossible to say.

You notice how Tahm Kench suddenly became pick or ban once the pros figured out how good he was and starting using him? There's a problem with that though; Tahm has been this strong since 5.17 when he got his most recent buff and yet saw very little play in 5.17, 5.18, and 5.19, as well as almost no play the first half of Worlds. Judging by his pick and ban rates in those patches, he was bad. But now, with no changes, he's suddenly extremely OP because his pick and ban rates have skyrocketed because of World's exposure. That's the problem with judging a champions power based off pick and ban rate; it only applies to known champions rather than unknown ones and pick and ban rates form a feedback loop where one reinforces the other. And the only way that feedback loop is broken is when we decide that a new champion has become OP and start picking and banning them every game instead.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Slamurai Jack1 votes

How stupid are you? I'm going to explain it one more time. Tahm is really strong. Tahm has been really strong since his last buff in 5.17. But no one played him in 5.17. Or 5.18. Or 5.19. It took until 5.20 for the community as a whole to discover how good he is. That's over 6 weeks of Tahm being incredibly strong and also largely unknown. According to your system, Tahm was garbage in 5.17, 5.18, and 5.19 based on his pick and ban rates, which were both very low. Pick/ban only reflects community perception of power and only applies to known champions; a champion can very easily be extremely strong and just unknown for whatever reason, somewhat similar to Urgot's overnight rise to a priority pick in NA LCS earlier in the year. Was Urgot OP? No, he wasn't. He never got nerfed. He fell back to the wayside with 0 changes at all. But the community thought he was and picked and banned him accordingly.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Your argument is nothing more than, "The most OP champions are historically highly picked and banned and we know they were the most OP at the time because they were highly picked and banned." It's a completely unfalsifiable argument because it assumes that pick/ban rate is a reliably indicator of champion power with no way to test that assumption.

SaltyKracka1 votes

You'll actually find a lot less bitching about Lee Sin here than you would've before Cinderhulk rolled around.

And that's because at the time Lee and his ilk were the meta and Elise had not yet been buffed again.

Fiveofswords1 votes

i dont think ori scales better than ahri...shes jsut better at teamfighting. Teamfighting is highly important in soem lcs environment but solo q with morons you are never going to see a 5 v 5. Such a thing simply does not occur.

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