The closest thing we have to a Poison Mage in the game is Singed.

Agidyne·Jul 29, 2015·41 votes·3,572 views

And he isn't even an actual Mage.

People might argue Cassiopeia is a Poison Mage, but she is nothing but a Twin Fang Machine Gun(she has always been), at least that's where most of her damage comes from anyway. Spamming Es on Poisoned enemies.

Can we re-rework her into doing the thing that she was supposed to in the first place? Spreading Large Heavy-hitting DoTs across the enemy team, kinda like Singed?

And Teemo isn't a Poison Mage either. Teemo doesn't beat you with Poison DoTs, he beats you by annoying you and making you go on Tilt with Shroomspam.

66 Comments

OverpoweredSoapJul 29, 201542 votes

Remember Cassiopeia?

No?

Yeah, neither does Stashu.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 30, 20151 votes

Sigh. He fucked up and now doesn't want to admit that her "rework" made her even more of a thematical failure than she originally was...

A Miss FortuneJul 29, 201523 votes

yep

ChaosThiefJul 29, 201517 votes

Rito says "Poison damage isn't healthy because a player can't see how much damage they will take."

cough cough awesomenauts cough cough It marks DoT as yellow health instead of green or red, so you see how much damage you will take over time.

junglerboy16Jul 29, 20155 votes

not to mention the fact that they changed DoT damage text to show total damage now, so even if you didn't realize how much you would take, you know how much you did take.

Yellow health is a great idea though.

CincluerJul 30, 20152 votes

Easy fix instead of saying she does x damage per sec over y sec just rewrite it to say she x total damage split up over y seconds. It's really stupid and simple but if they tell you the total then nobody can bitch that they didn't know how much poison damage they'd take because they are bad at math.

If your talking about having the yellow health super imposed over your health bar to show how much you will take, then yeah it works but it kinda puts the poisoner at a disadvantage since you could tell if you'd die or not and based on that know whether or not you should heal.

KaisadiIIaJul 30, 20152 votes

Rito says "Poison damage isn't healthy because a player can't see how much damage they will take."

There is a ton of DoT damage in the game and nobody complained. Also it's not hard to know how much damage you'll take from any DoT.

Zair UmbrasJul 30, 20151 votes

No, Riot said AoE DoT damage isn't healthy because it used to do a ton more damage. Her 'rework' tuned her entire kit down. While she was always an E spammer, her old kit used to half life anyone hit by the full duration of her Q.. since it did 80% of her AP. lol. If they switch her single target DoT's with low CD's to switch between targets as her Q, her W left to be the same, and her E changed to give a slight boost in her poison damage or even just be a targeted poison while her Q is a long-ish range skill shot poisonball of death, she'd be in a pretty damn good spot as a Poison Mage. They'd be able to adjust her kit accordingly since she'd be mostly single target with an actual skill shot that a tank could block, yet because of how her kit works, she'd still get a boost in speed and be able to kite that tank for days, which would make her into a kiting DoT mage, something we don't have. Currently, we had Malz who insta-gibs with R and Swain who facetanks. And Singed just trolls. Rumble is about the only DoT mage that fits the bill, but he's short ranged outside of his R, which is meant to give him proper team fight potential. Which is sorta funny since his main two damage abilities are AoE DoTs, though both of them are positional, not "You're taking damage because you got hit to begin with". You can flash away and be safe where as Cass has always been, "You're hit, now you're dead.", sorta like a Teemo Shroom, except that was her Q.

Champion SkinJul 30, 20151 votes

There is no difference between AoE DoT and AoE instant damage... the only difference (if they deal the same damage) is that in general the DoT is weaker (the target can kill you or do more before going down and dying to the DoT and have longer time to react with shields and heals and they can be removed with QSS)

The only situations in which DoT's are stronger is with things like Rylais (this is the reason DoT's have the weakest slow) or Liandries or if they have in built effects like Swain E which have a damage increase or his Q which has a slow (though that is more like a tether since it can be broken to reduce/avoid the damage)

Zair UmbrasJul 30, 20151 votes

Logically, there is no difference at all between Instant and DoT, but in Riot's mind during Cass's rework, they decided AoE DoT had too much hidden power, which is silly, but eh.

Champion SkinJul 30, 20151 votes

That isn't true there is a difference between DoT and instant damage DoT is weaker if the total damage is the same... (and there isn't any added effect to the DoT) Why? Well because your target is more likely to survive because HP regen or life steal or it gives them more time to react with heals/shields And if you theoretically drop enough damage on your target to eventually kill them with DoTs... your target can still kill you (since the DoT takes a while to finish killing of your target while instant damage just deletes your target which means they can't hit you back or kill you)

For these reasons DoT's usually have higher damage than instant damage abilities or they have additional effects

ZertryxJul 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Rito says "Poison damage isn't healthy because a player can't see how much damage they will take."

cough cough awesomenauts cough cough It marks DoT as yellow health instead of green or red, so you see how much damage you will take over time.

I don't even think yellow health is even needed, considering that EVERY other non poision damage champion you can't see how much health you will lose until they blow you up and the health is gone instantly, poision already has the advantage of being able to negate it ahead of time

Champion SkinJul 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Rito says "Poison damage isn't healthy because a player can't see how much damage they will take."

That's a pretty weak argument...

And well it is also hard to tell how much damage you will take from that ADC with an IE... will he/she crit twice and kill you? Or not crit at all and you will survive with no problems?

And honestly... what's the problem with DoTs really.. even if it is hard to say how much damage you will take.. not like there is much you can do about it after it has already hit you... It is like oh no... if only I could see how much damage this DoT was going to do I could... QSS it? Zhonyas it? use heal/barrier (though in the case of heal/barrier.. in what way is it worse with a DoT not being sure if you have to use it and a direct damage spell which would likely just kill you on the spot without giving you the time to think about it)

And shields... well those you just use regardless so you usually don't need to know the damage you are going to take

And well... in what way is it possibly worse getting hit by a DoT compared to a instant damage spell if they both deal the same amount of damage? (Yes effects like Liandries and Rylais are better with DoT however in general DoT is worse then instant damage unless it has other effects)

LadyRenlyJul 30, 20154 votes

DoT is so unhealthy, can't see how much damage you take, but burst is healthy, you don't need to know how much damage you'll take when you just get deleted

Champion SkinJul 30, 20152 votes

Yeah I know right DoT so broken... Do you want to kill your target now? Or in 3 seconds... obviously it is much better having your target die in 3 seconds so they have time to kill you or something like that before dying

OperationDEEZ1Jul 29, 20159 votes

Everyone complains about Singed . Udyr Is the true running simulator.

terkmcJul 30, 20151 votes

I dream of a game where Singed and Udyr just chase each other back and forth all over the Summoner Rift while the rest of the team 4v4

SerevasJul 29, 20156 votes

I think the problem with poison mages is that you have one of two things, they're either completely ineffective in lane with very little impact in shorther skirmishes or completely obliterate teamfights and are just overwhelmingly oppressive in lane.

AuryielJul 30, 20153 votes

And that's based on what exactly...?

SerevasJul 30, 20151 votes

Based on the fact that if you're to have any impact in a teamfight the damage needs to be high enough to actually do anything with, and not be reduced to laughable damage by an Aegis, which you're guaranteed to have on the other team.

So to put the damage high enough then makes a single ability max in lane basically lethal if you get hit by it as it'll chunk out a ton of your health.

You could partially work around this with putting a lot of the punch into the ability power scaling, but that only goes so far.

AuryielJul 30, 20153 votes

How is that any different than an AoE burst mage like Brand?

HawkefireJul 29, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dread Fortress,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0F7E8m2E,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-29T17:54:07.796+0000)

And he isn't even an actual Mage.

People might argue Cassiopeia is a Poison Mage, but she is nothing but a Twin Fang Machine Gun(she has always been), at least that's where most of her damage comes from anyway. Spamming Es on Poisoned enemies.

Can we re-rework her into doing the thing that she was supposed to in the first place? Spreading Large Heavy-hitting DoTs across the enemy team, kinda like Singed?

And Teemo isn't a Poison Mage either. Teemo doesn't beat you with Poison DoTs, he beats you by annoying you and making you go on Tilt with Shroomspam.

Hey man, Swain's a pretty good DoT mage.

SaiannaJul 29, 20153 votes

read this text again.

Not just "dot mage"

But

"poison mage"

LynxonyxJul 29, 20153 votes

He is a Fart Mage.

Seriously though, Singed needs some love. The recent buffs weren't nearly enough.

A Miss FortuneJul 29, 20154 votes

He needs a complete Sion-level rework lol. He's very poorly designed and there's not even a lot they can balance out since half of his kit is just stats. He's not really fun to play against and most people would agree he's not fun to play either. He's not bad, but definitely broken/outdated.

ArkenStormJul 30, 20151 votes

i would disagree on the rework. i just think he needs some minor tweaks. hes super fun to play. run around, TROLOLOLOLOL. it's the best

terkmcJul 30, 20151 votes

How is Singed not fun to play? You don't have to be super complex to be fun, just the playstyle that it facilitate. Singed plays the meta game, he gets inside the entire enemy team's head while dodging skillshot, flinging fools and knowing exactly when to go in and when to get out to create the juiciest of bait, map knowledge to proxy and draw pressure

A Miss FortuneJul 30, 20152 votes

Singed's entire kit involves him running around, there's no depth to it and half of his kit is stat modifiers. The rest being extremely simple. Due to this It's impossible to fully balance Singed out. If he ever gets buffed to where he's much stronger, he'll be insanely overpowered because of how his kit doesn't have much room for counterplaying because of how extremely simple it is. I'm not saying Singed isn't viable, and that he's a bad champion, though I think people would clearly want more to do with him than just running around in circles to take off pressure from the map. Quite frankly, the champion can be extremely annoying and make the game unfun since he just proxy farms while the enemy laner just sits there and farms too. Singed players also tend to stay top lane for most of the game, since Singed can't really team fight or do much other than draw pressure from the rest of the map. This isn't bad, but I feel like Riot could do a lot more with the champion aside from making his entire kit revolving around just running in circles.

DestructiveKittyJul 29, 20152 votes

Cassiopeia? With those 2 abilities that are literally just poison DOTs

AgidyneJul 29, 201514 votes

it doesn't matter.

All her damage comes from her Twin Fang.

AbyssphereJul 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Cassiopeia? With those 2 abilities that are literally just poison DOTs

One cast of Twin Fang can do more damage than two seconds of damage from both Miasma and Noxious Blast. Her "poison DOTs" are really just setup for her E.

A Miss FortuneJul 29, 20152 votes

That's true, actually, I believe her W does less damage than her auto attacks for most of the game if they don't stand in it for the full duration.

At max rank, standing in it for the full duration (7 seconds which can be an entire teamfight mind you) 270 +90% of her AP. Being 30 base + 10% of her AP every 2 seconds.

LoL Ergo UrgotJul 31, 20151 votes

In that regards it seems like kit wise, Cass is very similar to Urgot who also depends on his "poison" ability for his Q's.

AbyssphereJul 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Lord Fatgot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0F7E8m2E,comment-id=000400010001,timestamp=2015-07-31T02:13:57.744+0000)

In that regards it seems like kit wise, Cass is very similar to Urgot who also depends on his "poison" ability for his Q's.

Which says a lot about how good her design is :P

SaiannaJul 29, 20155 votes

At level 1 her poison pool (EDIT: W) deals whooping 5 damage per tick

Sorry, but Sonas HEALS do better poison damage

ChaoticPineconeJul 29, 20151 votes

....Are you making stuff up to prove a point? Because her lowest damage poison spell is her W, which does 10 per tick and lasts for 2 second, ensuring that you get at least 30 damage off of a spell that lasts for 7 seconds of zone control.

SaiannaJul 29, 20151 votes

Uh.. E was twin fang, yes? Then W was poison pool..

Sorry got that wrong, I was writing about W then. At it deals 5 damage per tick after some early resists. That i am sure of.

AudiomancyJul 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

....Are you making stuff up to prove a point? Because her lowest damage poison spell is her W, which does 10 per tick and lasts for 2 second, ensuring that you get at least 30 damage off of a spell that lasts for 7 seconds of zone control.

Factor in magic resist and that number gets a lot lower.

ChaoticPineconeJul 30, 20151 votes

You need 100 MR to reduce incoming magic damage in half.

Most champions start with 30, some start with 32.1. You can get 37.65 starting a full page of flat MR. Then enchanted armor (if you decide to go 21 into the defensive tree) increases that by 10%.

So the highest MR you can have starting out the game is 76.725, which still doesnt cut the incoming damage in half.

EDIT - and that, of course, assumes that the Cassio doesnt start any Magic Pen (either in runes or offensive tree) and doesnt start with any AP.

AnidanJul 30, 20151 votes

I think the point is that 10 damage a second for a level one skill (totaling 90 damage due to 2 second lingering poison) that can't be moved once placed is... well, pretty fucking garbage in League, especially since there's a slight delay before it even lands which means some people can outright avoid ever being in the Miasma during some casts.

KougaJul 30, 20152 votes

Depends on what you specifically want.

You want a "Poison Mage"

Poison - can either refer to just a DoT as a mechanic (which can be thematically different, but mechanically the same. For example a DoT Champion would be Brand or Malzahar, where a poison Champion is more limited), or you can refer to Poison as a theme, in which case Teemo and Cass are viable responses. Even if they deal damage through other mechanics, their theme is still tied to poison. Teemo doesn't actually kill you by annoying you. He does, in fact, kill you via poison damage. EXCLUSIVELY. He passively deals poison damage on hit. His Q blinds you (which thematically is a "blinding dart" which I see as a form of poison/toxin) and his Shrooms poison you. Literally the ONLY way he can kill you is via some kind of poison-like effect.

Mage - Again, do you just mean "magic damage" or do you mean "spell casting, book-wielding magician"? This also causes problems. Thematically when we think of poison its usually organic (hence mushrooms and toxic clouds), not something arcane like Ryze's abilities.

So if you want, for example, a Champion that uses Poison [Theme] but does not have to be a Mage [Theme], then you could say that Twitch is a good "Poison-based Champion". He passively poisons his enemies and often gets kills by stacking it up and expunging them. Literally killing you via poison.

But if you specifically Poison "Mage" I don't think you'll get much closer to Teemo.

Champion SkinJul 30, 20151 votes

Actually Swain is closer to a DoT mage then Malzahar or Brand As Malzahar and Brand usually work like combo mages and throw all of their abilities at a target and blow them up

While Swain slowly wear his target down with his DoT's and damage over time (ult)

And the thing about teemo... that depends if he builds AD the dart (AA) will deal more damage than the poison so it isn't like he is only poison damage he also some other damage

RueianJul 30, 20152 votes

even though he is not specifically poison themed Malzahar

Champion SkinJul 30, 20151 votes

Malzahar is usually more of a Combo mage who blows everything to blow up a target

Swain is much more DoT and damage over time focused

Well that's my opinion anyways

CasterGilgameshJul 30, 20151 votes

malz is a AP assassin he does not have the cc like mages but he does have mage like qualities with a suppressing ult to pick out single WEAK targets like an assassin

DarthSpectrumJul 30, 20151 votes

I completely agree. The closest thing that comes to a DoT mage in League is Brand, and even so Riot is trying to amp his teamfight AOE damage rather than focusing on his "burn" component.

None of the champions that proc poison in this game actually deals meaningful damage with said poison - besides Singed of course. Twitch uses his DoT to stack his Contaminate. Cassiopeia point and clicks Q or W then spams E. Teemo's damage comes mainly from his Q and AAs. His poison only really matters when someone steps on a shroom. The damage on his E is really negligible compared to the rest of his kit since it doesn't stack.

I much rather have Cassiopeia be a DoT spread damage over time mage rather than the AK-47 mage she is now. If Riot is worried about Cass's kit becoming too annoying, I assure you almost nothing can top losing half or more of your health from Cass's E spam.