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Can we please for the love of God change how match making works in normals?

MorgManBasher··18 votes·10,891 views

I'm so sick of having games where my teammates are all low silver and going against a full plat/diamond team.

Like, this isn't even close to enjoyable and makes me want to just never play normal games with my friends.

My last game my mid laner was silver 4 against a plat 2, my jungle was silver 4 against a plat, my ADC was silver 1 against a Diamond 4 ADC main and my top was silver 1 against a plat 3... Meanwhile the only match making that made sense was me vs another plat support.

The ELO difference that game was so many tiers it's actually disgusting and all they did all game was flame my teamates and insult them and laugh at them. Somehow for whatever reason my jungle said GG to them even after everything they said and they still made fun of her and said "Jungle difference XD"

It just seems to happen all the time where the enemy team has a massive ELO advantage, meanwhile some days you get the massive ELO advantage and just shit on them... Either way it's not fun and not fair.

This is more a rant than anything, just had multiple games in a row that were just awfully imbalance and not fun.

43 Comments

HP Crookshanks5 votes

Normal MMR is really dumb and should be removed.

DeathBurst1 votes

Then what do you based match-making around in Normals? Nothing at all, just random people together?

Karunamon2 votes

{quoted}

Then what do you based match-making around in Normals? Nothing at all, just random people together?

Oddly enough, this probably wouldn't be too different from what we have now. ~87% of the player base is gold or below, so you'd have most matches full of those players with a roughly 1 in 10 chance of getting someone higher than that. And probably even less, since I'd imagine anyone with a rank of plat or above is playing primarily in ranked, not normals.

DeathBurst2 votes

Your reasoning assume that the only problem is when a Plat+ player is mixed with lower players, but a Bronze/Iron matched against a Gold will also complain, you know....

And you imply that 1 in 10 chance is low enough to be satisfying, but that means you get 1 in every game on average, so that's clearly not...

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

Your reasoning assume that the only problem is when a Plat+ player is mixed with lower players, but a Bronze/Iron matched against a Gold will also complain, you know

They will, but those complaints are mostly noise. The skill gap across the lowest 3 tiers is pretty small and more a function of how often you (can stand to ) play and how fast you learn basics.

DeathBurst1 votes

That's a terrible statement.... First off, it's incredibly dismissive of 85% of the player base, and something Riot can't afford to do if they want to keep that player base.

Second, it doesn't address the fact that there will be a Plat+ player in every game, on average. What you're asking for is a situation where the team that wins is the team that get the Plat+ player, and the other players don't matter. Not fun for anyone.

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

That's a terrible statement.... First off, it's incredibly dismissive of 85% of the player base, and something Riot can't afford to do if they want to keep that player base.

It wasn't meant to be offensive, but it's a fact. A gold is a lot closer to an iron in skill than a gold is to a diamond. By definition. Hell, once you get up to diamond, the skill difference between the individual tiers is higher than the difference between multiple entire leagues at the bottom of the ladder.

People complaining about this can be ignored (in typical Riot fashion) because they simply are operating on ignorance.

Second, it doesn't address the fact that there will be a Plat+ player in every game, on average. What you're asking for is a situation where the team that wins is the team that get the Plat+ player, and the other players don't matter. Not fun for anyone.

Two problems: Normals MMR is already fucky. I've had diamonds show up in games with a low/mid silver average skill.

Second, you forgot about the bit where it's going to be lower than a 1/10 chance because those higher ranked people aren't going to be playing that many normals.

DeathBurst1 votes

No, they can't just be ignored, because ignorant as they are, if they don't have fun, they will simply leave.

And even if it's less than 1/10 (which is questionable), you're still asking for a situation that would make it happen every couple games at least. While the current "fucky" version, you saw diamonds among silvers how often? It happens once in a while, but it's rare.

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

No, they can't just be ignored, because ignorant as they are, if they don't have fun, they will simply leave.

And even if it's less than 1/10 (which is questionable), you're still asking for a situation that would make it happen every couple games at least. While the current "fucky" version, you saw diamonds among silvers how often? It happens once in a while, but it's rare.

Keep in mind I didn't argue for a random system, I just said it wouldn't be too much different from the "barely-any-matchmaking-at-all" we have currently. If you're asking me to defend it, you're asking the wrong person.

DeathBurst1 votes

OK, fair enough, but then that still leaves my original question hanging: granted the current system isn't great, but what can we get better?

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

OK, fair enough, but then that still leaves my original question hanging: granted the current system isn't great, but what can we get better?

Carryover of ranked elo into normal elo. Your skill is objectively higher and it's not fair to allow newbies to be roflstomped by someone who is hundreds of times better at the game than they are. This is the entire literal goal of a matchmaking system.

If you're high plat in soloq, you should be getting matched against high plats in normals, not showing up in games with silvers/bronzes.

DeathBurst1 votes

Nope, that ruins the point of having 2 queues in the first place. If you're matched the same way in both queues, you're basically forced into playing the same things in both queues. You can't learn new champs/positions. If you do it that way, Normals are just useless shitty games that are exactly like Ranked except they don't count. So you might as well play Ranked.

Again, I'm not saying the current system is good, and I'd love to find a better way. But the "obvious" solutions various people proposed in this thread are simply even worse.

'cause sure, when the current system fails, it's annoying. But most of the time, it's more or less working. In my own case, I'm high Gold in SoloQ, and I'm matched against mid Silver in Normals, because that's actually the level I play at when I'm not playing my mains, and I play enough Normals games to be accurately rated. Putting me in high Gold games would be just as bad as the current situation.

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

Nope, that ruins the point of having 2 queues in the first place. If you're matched the same way in both queues, you're basically forced into playing the same things in both queues.

You can't learn new champs/positions. If you do it that way, Normals are just useless shitty games that are exactly like Ranked except they don't count. So you might as well play Ranked.

If you want to play against opponents that you can mindlessly stomp to learn things, go do vs ai. matches. Humans are entitled to fair matches against people of equivalent skill level.

Again, I'm not saying the current system is good, and I'd love to find a better way. But the "obvious" solutions various people proposed in this thread are simply even worse.

Allowing a mid silver game to be determined by the presence of a diamond on either team is even worse still. Someone at diamond rank has no business in that match, period.

https://i.imgur.com/Hi30qL0.png

This should not be possible.

DeathBurst1 votes

That's an exception. It's not happening EVERY game. The various solutions proposed in that thread would make EVERY game of Normals useless.

Because when I am matched in a mid Silver game, I'm not stomping anyone. I'm just playing at my actual level with champs I don't master yet. In fact, at the end of Season 8, I was regularly getting flamed by my teammates because I was not playing well enough for their taste, since my displayed Rank was Gold1.

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

That's an exception. It's not happening EVERY game. The various solutions proposed in that thread would make EVERY game of Normals useless.

Because when I am matched in a mid Silver game, I'm not stomping anyone. I'm just playing at my actual level with champs I don't master yet.

You might do that. What about everyone else?

Okay, here's an idea: We still carry over your ranked MMR, but we weight it down based on your champ mastery (the raw points, not the level). That way, you will get easier matches with champs you objectively don't understand, but you still don't get to play silver matches with plat game knowledge.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

You should not think in terms of % of the player base. Because there are good chances that the average iron player plays less games/day than a diamond player.

It would be more accurate to factor the number of games played by each tier of players.

HP Crookshanks1 votes

Ranked MMR.

DeathBurst1 votes

Then what's the point of having a separate queue? If you're matched against the same people no matter the queue, you can't try new stuff, you can't learn new positions. If you're matched based on your Ranked MMR, why play in Normals at all? Just play in Ranked and have it count for real.

HP Crookshanks1 votes

You can't try new stuff nor learn new positions if all of your teammates are unranked-gold while the enemies are all plat/dia/master.

DeathBurst1 votes

But that's a problem that doesn't happen all the time. It's annoying when it does happen, but it's the exception, not the rule. With the system you propose, that would happen 100% of the time by design.

DeathBurst4 votes

OK, I agree there is a problem with match-making in Normals. But HOW do you want to change it?

The root problem is that people in Normals are wildly inconsistent. They don't play seriously, they try 100 different champs, etc. And so what the match-making THINK is someone skill and what their skill actually IS when they play seriously once in a while is totally different. And I honestly see no solution around that. But if you have one, you can count on me to promote it and bugger Riot until they actually implement it.

Karunamon1 votes

{quoted}

OK, I agree there is a problem with match-making in Normals. But HOW do you want to change it?

Tie normal MMR to ranked MMR (in one direction only).

Someone at diamond rank does not play at silver skill just because they clicked normal instead of soloq, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

I don't care if you're playing a champion that just came out the previous hour for the first time, that's a lot of macro, instinct, and game knowledge you're going to have that puts you way above the average, even if you have no idea how to play your champ.

DeathBurst1 votes

Diamond to Silver? Probably not. But low Plat to high Silver? Definitely. I was Gold1 with Garen Top last season, and I still lose more than half the time when I play any Assassin Mid in Silver3. That's top12% versus top50%.

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

OK, I agree there is a problem with match-making in Normals. But HOW do you want to change it?

The root problem is that people in Normals are wildly inconsistent. They don't play seriously, they try 100 different champs, etc. And so what the match-making THINK is someone skill and what their skill actually IS when they play seriously once in a while is totally different. And I honestly see no solution around that. But if you have one, you can count on me to promote it and bugger Riot until they actually implement it.

just scrap normals MMR system a make it work off ranked if there are not ranked games use provisional mmr until ranked take precedence, not perfect but more fair

DeathBurst1 votes

That wouldn't be more fair, no. As someone who one-tricks in Ranked and reached Gold1, and who plays 30 different champs in Normals at a ~Silver3 MMR, I certainly don't want the same MMR applying to both queues, because it ruins the point of having 2 queues in the first place. If the MMR are the same, you are forced to play the same things, you might as well have just one queue.

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

That wouldn't be more fair, no. As someone who one-tricks in Ranked and reached Gold1, and who plays 30 different champs in Normals at a ~Silver3 MMR, I certainly don't want the same MMR applying to both queues, because it ruins the point of having 2 queues in the first place. If the MMR are the same, you are forced to play the same things, you might as well have just one queue.

not everone can be happy everytime but still you can deal more easily with golds in normal than unranked noobs against gold

hrooza dota 1 votes

so a plat can make a smurf, start on bronze/iron then play normal forever because his ranked is iron/bronze he will only meet those for easy stomps?

no thanks i prefer seeing 1 in a blue moon over fighting 20 every 10 game

Exin01 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0BeYlPsp,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2019-02-21T07:10:00.855+0000)

so a plat can make a smurf, start on bronze/iron then play normal forever because his ranked is iron/bronze he will only meet those for easy stomps?

no thanks i prefer seeing 1 in a blue moon over fighting 20 every 10 game

smurfing is happening right now only difference is now you must create new account moment your mmr start spiking but smurfing is different issue and whole point of smurfing is not stay in normal game with noobs forever but abuse system and fastly get rank by skipping as many tiers as possible. Riot need tie account to card or id and smurfing ged solved.

hrooza dota 1 votes

smurfs exist but not as bad as i stated now, a smurf to stay low he need to tank his mmr and thus he can be punished note that a smurf mmr will rise a massive amount from the get go with current match making

your idea will just make their job easier since most ppl start now in bronze/iron if im not mistaken

Iznie1 votes

MMR in normals is calculated differently and not in any way, shape, or form tied to your rank... except when your team's highest ranking player is plat 4 and their lowest is plat 2 and you're stuck under tower playing vs a challenger Ryze, calling the game BS over and over again.

I asked the support staff a year ago and they said that the normals MMR works in a similar way as the ranked MMR, though that doesn't make sense as I'm sure higher tier players don't spend as much time in normals as lower tiers or unranked players.

I was hoping that the new position ranks would transition into normals, but guess that isn't the case.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

MMR in normals is calculated differently

Separately*

Also to the OP

Your friends are probably better then their ranked ranking suggests given the matchmaking, Or those High elo enemies actually suck beyond their current rank

The only issue arises when someone creates a smurf doesnt play normals past level 30... hops onto Ranked reaches high elo Then once in a blue moon chooses normal and the system underestimates him as it has no to much experience with him in normals

Iznie

Separately*

English major btw

DeathBurst1 votes

The algorithm is the same but the data is separated. Your Normals MMR is based on your Normals history, and your Ranked MMR is based on your Ranked history.

And positional match-making is already used in Normals for 6 months or so. You can see at the end of a Normal game there is a little bubble telling where you played (and so for what position this match's result will count).

SEKAI1 votes

I'm more sick of the fact norm's matchmaking has a fetish of matching solo teams with premade 3 and above, frequently matching solo teams with premade 4 and 5.

What is the point? Does the buddy-gamers need to be rewarded with free wins and screw over the matchmaking (and they are usually toxic as shit, too, but I guess toxic bro gamers bring in the cash so they have to ride the gravy train or something amirite?)? How hard is it to match large premades with large premades?

What's more, premades almost never get autofilled. Basically aurofill is just there to shuffle around the solo players because they are disposable or something. This can't be more true in norms, where solo players is entirely at the mercy and expense of premades.

Very appalling.

I Spread Cancer1 votes

What do you do if in a very rare occasion challenger want to play normal? You give him 4 bronze and 5 enemy platinum? Still unfun for the bronzes.

Saianna1 votes

I once, long time ago, said that ranked division should also affect normal division. Got laughed at. Oh but looks like the issue is still there huh.

Targon1 votes

I hate how matchmaking isn't even remotely balanced.

https://imgur.com/a/WP9pta0

This is a game that I played last year. My team had 0 chance.

BackdoorPrincess1 votes

The fact that level 30 can even go against dia/plat is pretty obnoxious

Saevum1 votes

It's a secret plan to make you play Rankeds.

No, wait, it's just a garbage matchmaker. Cause Rankeds are the same sht right now.

MorgManBasher1 votes

{quoted}

It's a secret plan to make you play Rankeds.

No, wait, it's just a garbage matchmaker. Cause Rankeds are the same sht right now.

Yeah, sadly ranked match making is fucking bad right now. Like, over the top super bad... Low diamonds in the same game as a silver in his gold promos bad.

Gold Grenade1 votes

I couldn't agree with this more. "How do we change it tho?" seems to be the most common response.

First criterion would be the overall win rate percentage of the players on each team and in each of their currently selected roles for the game taken as it's own average of each of those numbers for each player. Then take the average for the whole team. If the overall difference shouldn't exceed 25% between the two teams and each role shouldn't exceed 20% difference. Tweak from there.

Second criterion is that Matchmaking should actually match people together within a range of 4 sub-rank steps (one full rank) of each other. For instance if there's a Silver 3 player in the game as the median rank there should be no higher than Gold 3, and no lower than Bronze 2 in that game.

Third criterion (and maybe an easy way to separate the data effectively into views) is the ranks, each given a numerical value, should be added together for each team as prospective players are selected. There should be no more than a full two ranks difference numerically in the difference of the sums of the two teams. (this number wouldn't always appear to be two full ranks since something like 23-18=5 but that can be calculated based upon the numerical value of the median player)

Fourth criterion test players connections! If they have a crap connection don't let them be matched with players who have solid internet connections. Seriously. Why did this testing die off in games?

This might seem too restrictive, or maybe you would think wait times might go up too much? Maybe we have to wait a minute and a half average but it would be worth fair games.

Run something like this for matchmaking through the database(s) as views/stored procedure and keep it consistently updated so possible matches are quick to find according to who is online & in queue.

If there's truly not enough people online then fallback on whatever garbage heap the matchmaking is now.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

This isn't fortnite, there is already an mmr system. The plats and diamonds have the same mmr and the same level of skill as your gold and silver teammates.

Lovelle1 votes

Ranked and normal mmr are separate.

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