Why do people say Blitzcranks Q is balanced? I am curious.

Nikushimi Zero·Feb 8, 2016·10 votes·3,416 views

I get it. It's a skill shot. He can miss. However, on a 40% CDR he can cast it shortly after missing.

Peoples main argument is that you can dodge it and then he can't use it for a while, but the speed at which the grab goes out is hard to dodge and maneuver around. Its hitbox is also very wacky. I had tumbled away from one before and was still pulled. I have also been pulled when the hand had not even touched me.

So, I get it. People love Blitzcrank. He's awesome when he is your teammate, but seriously. 300 base damage and 100% AP scaling at max rank. Not to mention the range of 925.

That's ult level damage and pretty decent range. You can't deny that.

If the easiest solution was to "dodge" then you could argue that the damage for every skill shot should be increased based on that logic.

So, I'm probably going to get flak for this (I did last time I was curious about Teemo and his mushrooms), but I am curious. Why? Most everyone stands behind Blitz and his crazy stupid damage all because he is meant to be a tank rather than AP. So why give something so tantalizingly good to him? Being able to decimate ADCs in one combo, or chunking (even OHKO'ing) tanks themselves.

So, tell me. Why do people stand behind him being balanced?

127 Comments

mogonkFeb 8, 20165 votes

The AP ratio is incidental, as the rest of his kits limited scaling with AP makes full AP builds totally impractical. Blitz "chunking (even OHKO'ing) tanks themselves" is an absurd exaggeration of what he's capable of, and not something that actually happens.
You don't evaluate the power of a skill in a vacuum, you evaluate the power of a kit. Blitz's kit may be centered around his strong Q, but his kit is not OP.
The primary indicators of something being OP are winrate and pick/ban rate, Blitz is not an outlier in either category.

Your argument is garbage.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 8, 20164 votes

Idk what games you play, but Blitz gets banned in about 75% of the games I play in.

It isn't quite an exaggeration on how he can damage tanks. He took a good half of a few tanks on my team and the enemy. Limited AP ratios? 100% in both of his damaging abilities. Yeah...totally makes it valid because only two abilities do it, so it's ok.

The kit itself is strong. Not OP, but extremely strong. The damage itself is insane. No other tank as far as I can recall has such scaling.

So my argument is invalid? Then give me a reason as to why he is balanced with that scaling? Only thing I hear from people is "His kit is focused on the Q. If it misses, he is doomed." When about 90% of the time blitz's don't miss due to the speed of the grab and power of the grab. I was hit for over 1k damage by his Q alone once....from a tank/fighter.

Why does a tank fighter have AP scaling to begin with?

MasterSomethingFeb 9, 20161 votes

If you want to see him banned less, stop banning him.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

I never said anything about wanting to see him banned less. O.o And no, before you say it I don't want to see him banned more. I was looking for information on why people thought a tank support champion needed such high base damage and scaling on him. People said it was for laning, but isn't that what his ADC is supposed to be doing? Helping in the laning? His purpose is to protect and pull enemies. So I was trying to figure out why they defended such high damage. I got several answers (most just saying to dodge), and suffice it to say I got what I came for.

MasterSomethingFeb 9, 20162 votes

I was referring to what you said. "He gets banned like 75% of the time when I play." He wouldn't be banned so much to you if you didn't ban him yourself. To me, I rarely see a Blitz do well. Mainly it's because I dodge or use minions.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

And who said I banned him? The majority of the time it is my teammates or the enemy team who bans him.

I usually tend to ban Illaoi. I do not want to deal with that 10s of BS, but I'm sure since you're so pro that you never get hit by anything because you always dodge and are behind minions. :|

MasterSomethingFeb 9, 20161 votes

Yes. I am an up and coming Urgot main as well. So, yea, I have to get good at positioning.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

Good for you.

DrNovaFeb 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nikushimi Zero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04tKdEcb,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-02-08T08:16:37.112+0000)

Idk what games you play, but Blitz gets banned in about 75% of the games I play in.

It isn't quite an exaggeration on how he can damage tanks. He took a good half of a few tanks on my team and the enemy. Limited AP ratios? 100% in both of his damaging abilities. Yeah...totally makes it valid because only two abilities do it, so it's ok.

The kit itself is strong. Not OP, but extremely strong. The damage itself is insane. No other tank as far as I can recall has such scaling.

So my argument is invalid? Then give me a reason as to why he is balanced with that scaling? Only thing I hear from people is "His kit is focused on the Q. If it misses, he is doomed." When about 90% of the time blitz's don't miss due to the speed of the grab and power of the grab. I was hit for over 1k damage by his Q alone once....from a tank/fighter.

Why does a tank fighter have AP scaling to begin with?

Lol He is not banned in 75% of your games you filthy lier

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20162 votes

Lol He is not banned in 75% of your games you filthy lier

And you know this how? The majority of the games I play he is banned for the majority of them. I also said that 75% was a rough estimate because I rarely see him not banned whenever I play SR. When he isn't banned it's usually because either my team or the other team has one on their team.

ArakadiaFeb 10, 20161 votes

You didn't explain why he does so much damage and why a tank support has AP scaling at all. That part doesn't really matter.

Btw, saying Lol at someones argument doesn't make me wanna listen to you or agree, it makes me wanna disagree if anything.

ArakadiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

Insulting someones argument is not classy nor mature. Go back to 3rd grade.
Why does a support need damage? Supports, said by riot themselves in their tooltip, are meant to: save allies, ensure kills, and give an advantage to their team. Hes supposed to ensure kills but not get them single handedly himself.
Blitz's Q could use a nerf (And imo a rework), in exchange for some tankyness. His ult/W maybe also lose early game base damage, but late game strength.
The primary indicators of something being OP are winrate and pick/ban rate? No... you have to look at stats and kit too. Theres alot more into it. Blitz actually has a slightly higher then average winrate.
The WHOLE point of this post was NOT that blitz is OP, you just read that. You didn't read the real message: Why does it do so much damage? Hes a support. He doesn't need it. Why is that necesary?
Notice I said his viability shouldn't revolve around one ability. Not that hes broken or unfair. Its that the only reason ppl pick and play blitzcrank is for his hook. His WHOLE viability revolves around his hook. Give him Braum's Q and Braums passive which are quite strong and he would suck. That doesn't seem healthy for a champion. People pick say.... Illaoi because shes tanky, strong, cool and interesting, has sustain from her Q passive, and is a juggernaut. People pick Thresh because he gives mobility through his lantern, has a hook, can knock enemies up, has a cool passive, is very strong, and a play making support. The reason people play blitzcrank is because of his Q... his model is bulky and kinda unrealistic, but has a certain look to it thats pretty cool. His lore is nothing special. The ONLY reason I see people pick blitzcrank, is because of his hook.

mogonkFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The primary indicators of something being OP are winrate and pick/ban rate? No... you have to look at stats and kit too.

Except that by choosing to focus on certain elements of any champs kit you can make an argument for them being OP. You can make a strong case for Urgot being overpowered...unless you actually look at performance. This is common sense, and again, if you weren't being so bizarrely and undeservedly arrogant, this would be obvious to you.

The whole "why is it necessary" point is ridiculous. Why is it necessary for Blitz to do any damage at all? Why should any support have auto attacks? After all, aren't they supposed to support, not farm or do damage? This is nonsensical. Blitz's damage is not out of line with other supports. The damage on one of his abilities is pretty high, and it combos well with his other abilities. A standard build Lulu will do considerably more sustained damage than Blitz. Are you going to go make a thread about that too?

You just wrote a paragraph, a full, bulky paragraph, making the point that Blitz's kit revolving around a single ability was unhealthy WITHOUT MAKING A SINGLE ARGUMENT FOR WHY THAT IS THE CASE. You just assert that it's bad, then repeat yourself a few times and give examples of other kits that are less reliant on a specific ability. This is why I'm insulting your arguments, because your arguments are fucking terrible. You don't think critically or support your points with actual argumentation.

And that's fine, it's not your fault that you're bloody stupid. It IS your fault that you're so bloody arrogant despite being so bloody stupid. Get used to being insulted with your pompous attitude, it's going to be happening a lot.

ArakadiaFeb 10, 20161 votes

"Except that by choosing to focus on certain elements of any champs kit you can make an argument for them being OP. You can make a strong case for Urgot being overpowered...unless you actually look at performance. This is common sense, and again, if you weren't being so bizarrely and undeservedly arrogant, this would be obvious to you."

I don't really see how I was arrogant. Here your being hipocritical in the sense that you told me not to make an argument with no proof. Where was I arrogant, even I if I was arrogant you never showed any proof. Don't insult someone about something, if your no better. Winrate and pick/ban rate only tells part of the story, and apparently you think thats everything.

"The whole "why is it necessary" point is ridiculous. Why is it necessary for Blitz to do any damage at all? Why should any support have auto attacks? After all, aren't they supposed to support, not farm or do damage? This is nonsensical. Blitz's damage is not out of line with other supports. The damage on one of his abilities is pretty high, and it combos well with his other abilities. A standard build Lulu will do considerably more sustained damage than Blitz. Are you going to go make a thread about that too?"

Here you've blown my argument up to bigger proportions, and then judging the result. I can do the same. Blitz has very noticable higher damage then most supports. This is not necesarry, especially when hes supposed to be a tank. A standard lulu build will do more sustained damage, but can't CC lock you and pull you into his team/turret. Don't compare champions that have very different kits. I didn't make a thread at all ever about a champion's balance. A support has basic attacks for many reasons. Blitz does not need this extra damage on his Q, and supports normally have low damage esepcially on their basic attacks.

A: So they can be played in other roles such as Lulu top (Whos passive uses basic attacks in her abilities, like braums, nautillus, thresh's E, Karma's Passive, Tahm Kench passive, Sona's passive, Nami's E i think, Lux's passive, Leona's stun, Blitz's knockup, Taric's Passive, and Bard's passive) or Nautillus jungle and top.

B: So they can use items like Face of The Mountain and Frost Queens Claim.

C: So they have some wave clear of themselves.

D: So they can do some damage to the enemy besides casting all their spells and saying "Done!" and helping the adc cs/

E: For poke, such as Bard's meeps and Thresh's E passive.

F: And finally so they have more to deal with then just 4 spells. Just 4 spells would be very boring. If they have passives like Bard's passive and Lulu's passive and Sona's Passive its much more interesting.

There is no reason he needs the damage on his Q, it should be traded in for tankyness maybe. Maybe give him a "damage every so often" passive like Thresh's E and Bard's passive.

"You just wrote a paragraph, a full, bulky paragraph, making the point that Blitz's kit revolving around a single ability was unhealthy WITHOUT MAKING A SINGLE ARGUMENT FOR WHY THAT IS THE CASE. You just assert that it's bad, then repeat yourself a few times and give examples of other kits that are less reliant on a specific ability. This is why I'm insulting your arguments, because your arguments are fucking terrible. You don't think critically or support your points with actual argumentation."

The paragraph I made took me less then 5 minutes and yours is alot bigger. The only reason people pick blitzcrank is because of his hook, and maybe that hes a robot. The only gameplay reason is because of his hook, but why is this a bad thing? You want a champion to be played for many reasons. You want them to have many different qualities and cool tidbits. Rengar takes the role of an assasin, in the jungle, who can jump from bushes, has a stealth ult, cool animations, fast combo, and not incredibly hard. You would pick him for different team comps. Blitz is solely picked for his hook. His W is boring, his E not strong, his ult just another CC and waveclear ability, and his passive doesn't even fit his build as a support unless you build frozen heart or something like that. Nobody wants to pick blitzcrank if he didn't have his hook. This is not good for a champion. You want people to pick a champion for multiple reasons. You want them to not be reliant on one ability that their whole viability revolves around and if you miss/are bad at it you don't have anything else really to do. If Swain misses his W, he still can do a E>Q combo for decent damage. If blitz misses a Q, hes useless unless in melee range. If khazix misses his W and uses his Q on a non-isolated target, he can still use his items, ult, passive, and meaningful basic attacks. If as Karma you can't land your Q, you can snare them with your W first. Karma has her Q,E,W, and ult for more use to save allies. If blitz misses a hook he loses the majority of his use. Hes a semi-tanky meatsheild who can do a medium silence and a medium single target knockup. Once you get hooked tho by Blitz, there is little you can do before your bursted by him and his team and CC locked by his Q>W>R. Im not saying his broken, don't get me wrong. Im saying there is little counterplay once your hooked. Naut and Thresh's hooks do less damage and pull the target halfway. If Naut hooks you, you can wait for his E to stop and use a QSS or zonyas (or simpy running due to its slow movement untill you get to safety) when he ults you. Nautillus can root enemies, hook enemies, E enemies, or knockup enemies to save his allies.

"And that's fine, it's not your fault that you're bloody stupid. It IS your fault that you're so bloody arrogant despite being so bloody stupid. Get used to being insulted with your pompous attitude, it's going to be happening a lot."

Disagreeing doesn't make me stupid. If im wrong, im wrong but not necesarilly stupid. You can't judge me based on this one subject. Again, I don't see how I was arrogant in anyway, it just sounds like your trying to put me down and make me look bad in order to make you and your argument "better". The most "arrogant" if it could be considered that, was: "Insulting someones argument is not classy nor mature. Go back to 3rd grade." Thats true though. If someone is not smart you don't wanna make them feel bad about it nor should you insult them about it. Makese you look bad and you appear to have no honor or respect.

P.S I didn't think I would have to explain to you why having blitz's kit and viability revolving around his Q being unhealthy. Apparently its not so obvious or you didn't understand.

Conclusion: I don't think blitz is OP. I think he's too reliant and his whole viability revolves around his Q. That is not a good thing. If that is too hard to understand reread above. He could use a rework. I actaully made one before this post recently so you should look at it maybe. (Notice I did not insult you or call you stupid because I disagree). Don't also say I put too much work into this and im obssessed because I actually enjoy debates when their not pointlessly going in circles and were not just calling eachother foul. This took me maybe 12 minutes average and about 1/3 the post is your comments in quotes and "Enter" spaces.

ArakadiaFeb 10, 20161 votes

Just realized... holy shiz this is long lol.

MasterSomethingFeb 8, 20164 votes

Well, the solution for most skillshots is kind of the same. DODGING. Besides the long early cooldown (arguably where it matters most), it also is very steep, so if Blitz spams hooks and becomes oom, he can't defend his ADC. Not to mention it is a single target ability- a minion always will block it. Also, if you are curious about Blitz's burst damage, consider this: His only mobility SLOWS him, his E sucks on AP (So he only has 2 burst spells) plus it's melee range so you can't trade with it against mages who are ranged, and his ult targeting is random so if he wants guaranteed damage he has to burn it- and loses out on a lot of DoT damage. His Q right now is what makes him viable. There are a dozen more support champions that are a shit ton better than Blitzcrank. Blitz is the best in laning, where he can get his ADC fed. People say Blitz can make 5v5s 5v4s? Sure, as long as you don't pull the frontline tank or the initiator. TL:DR git gud

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 8, 20164 votes

Even front line tanks gets chunks of their health taken by an AP blitz.

I get the whole "Dodging" thing. I get it. Works with all skillshots as I said. However, if that is the case why don't all skillshots have that damage and scaling?

I get it. His Q is what makes him Viable, but to what end? He can still use it to grab enemies without that insane damage. Losing that damage would not make him any less viable. He's a tank/fighter. Why AP scaling? He's also a support, so why so much damage?

It makes no sense. His pulls and other abilities will still do their job in getting the enemy to your team without that damage.

Why do people defend the damage which is equal to Veigar's W in a more precise strike? It makes no sense to me. I'm not saying get rid of the Q, but that damage on a support is not needed. So why do people defend it so much?

MasterSomethingFeb 8, 20162 votes

If they are proper tanks building appropriately then they shouldn't be chunked.
Because not all skillshots are the same.
Well, if he just did grabs, then wouldn't Thresh be better? Because Thresh would have the damage AND utility that he already does bring. Blitz would just be a one trick pony.
Well, I shouldn't be comparing champions, but say if Annie stuns are so useful, why not just make her do no damage?
You do know there are supports who do much worse damage than Blitz. The reason people defend it is because it is so easily counterable. Stand behind minions, ward the bushes, poke his ADC and ignore him completely, slowly burn his mana, etc.

LordGeovanniFeb 9, 20164 votes

You can dodge blitz grabs as it fires with out boots and mobility only goes up as you buy boots and other mobility items. blitz crank has marksmen hp large mana costs on pull with low mana pool. have you ever played blitz crank you pull twice and oom for the next 2 mins. bitz is great as far as if he can land his q and that mostly relies on the enemy being preocupied but blitz can bearly function in his main roe which is tank

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

Look, I'm not debating that his pull is a part of his kit and I'm not saying to remove the pull. I'm asking why it has such a high base damage and scaling compared to other tanks and supports with pulls. To me it makes no sense for him to have it so high in damage when its main objective is to pull the enemy into his team.

LordGeovanniFeb 9, 20162 votes

the low hp high mana costs and small mana pool its really slow moving and they nerfed his q some months ago so that now it slows him who already has problems positioning himself now cant even use the w to help get some damage off if your allies decide they leaving half way and you know you have a self slow after your damage not before or during but after you legit cant use that at all for the fact you might as well be rooted when time to leave especially how no one would help a support escape but will cry at their numerous deaths

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

The missile speed is actually quite fast. At least according to his wiki page.

As for everything else shrugs I've gotten the info I was looking for, albeit through several less than happy board goers and a few who actually kept it civil. Lol.

l Helios lFeb 8, 20163 votes

The focus of the Q is to pull squishies and gain picks using it. Although, blitz Q requires him to commit to an engage, much in the way that Leona E or Naut Q force them to commit. A champion like thresh doesn't have that burden because he is able to choose whether to commit or not.

Besides, if Blitz pulls a malphite, an amumu, a nautilus, a leona, etc. he's made a team fight losing mistake. Blitz can cost his team a fight with a failed or misplaced hook.

Also his AP ratios are only relevant on his Q and Ult. Nothing else uses AP.

Sightless66Feb 8, 20163 votes

So why give something so tantalizingly good to him? Why do people stand behind him being balanced?

Because everything else he has besides the hook is pretty mediocre, and they open up quite a few weaknesses for him. If you can avoid getting pulled and you engage on his team instead, his tools to fight back are terrible. His W lasts for a relatively short time, decays quickly, and can fuck him over by slowing him down. His E is just a single-target knockup at melee range. His ult has some ok damage, but it only silences for 0.5 seconds, which is pretty much just a channel disrupt in most situations. Those are all pretty bad in any situation except the pull-into-pickoff situation.

If you only look at the Q, he'll always look overpowered no matter what his balance state is. It's a strong ability because so much of his power budget is loaded into it. If you look at the full kit, you get a much better view of where he actually stands.

Blitzcrank can be very, very bad if the game isn't good for him making picks with pulls, or if you can engage on him and force his team to stand up in a fair fight that he just can't contribute to. That's why people can find Blitzcrank balanced. Personally, I think he's a bit too strong, but nothing that can't be fixed with small base stat nerfs.

seriously. 300 base damage and 100% AP scaling at max rank.

So? What point are you trying to make with this? Do his damage is too high with AP? His actual burst-combo damage is less than true AP champions who have much higher AP scaling across their entire kits (again, if you only look at one ability you get a very skewed perception), and he can do it much less often and only to one person. That's why AP Blitzcrank sucks.

If the easiest solution was to "dodge" then you could argue that the damage for every skill shot should be increased based on that logic.

They already do have advantages over targeted skills. Skillshots tend to have higher ranges, more power in secondary effects, etc.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 8, 20161 votes

nothing that can't be fixed with small base stat nerfs.

This I agree with this.

He is quite strong despite what people say. I get it. His whole niche is his pull combo. Besides that he is almost useless. I get that. I am saying that the base damage on the pull and the scaling for it isn't really needed to keep that niche. The pull IS the niche. Not the damage, so why such high damage? 50% AP scaling would still be good. 200-250 base at max rank would also still be good. It's like people are acting as if anything less than 100% AP scaling and 300 base damage would completely make him useless when it wouldn't since he would still have his pull.

I am looking at the full kit. His kit consists of pulling into range for his allies and to CC them for easy kills. Missing the pull can cause for backlash, but nothing a little retreat can't solve. So why is it that with a full AP build Blitzcrank himself can destroy soft targets without the help of teammates if the whole point of his kit is to help his teammates?

Blitzcrank base stats resemble a tank support. His scaling and base damage on his damaging abilities however boast a powerhouse tank rather than a utility with a mediocre poke and amazing close range abilities after said mediocre pull. Does that make sense? Idk. Just never made sense with that high of damage on what they are going for on Blitz. Yeah, his other abilities don't do much unless they are close, and the pull can miss. Though idk if that truly justifies the damage on on the pull itself. The ultimate, yes. The pull? I'm not sure. I'm not saying they should get rid of the damage. Just that for what its purpose is, the damage is quite high.

Sightless66Feb 9, 20163 votes

I want to make one thing clear before I respond: When I say Blitzcrank has earned a small nerf, I am not including AP Blitzcrank in that assessment. I think AP Blitz is weak. I would nerf Blitzcrank without taking his AP build into consideration. If it didn't hurt his support build, I wouldn't bother touching it.

I understand that you personally dislike AP Blitzcrank, but AP Blitzcrank is not what makes Blitzcrank strong, and balance has to be aimed at what makes champions strong. He is strongest when he builds no AP whatsoever, so that build has to be targeted. That also means that AP builds are having no effect on his balance state whatsoever.

I am saying that the base damage on the pull and the scaling for it isn't really needed to keep that niche.

The base damage is absolutely necessary. It's the only thing that gives him any kind of laning phase. His entire point in lane is pulling people in and bursting them. Burst is an important part of that equation. Pulling people without a large burst of damage just starts a trade that you're guaranteed to lose, and the lack of threat means. Those are already problems for him on live. Making them into problems he can't adjust to is not the answer

200-250 base at max rank would also still be good.

No, it wouldn't. That is a huge nerf because it hits his only laning tool. He's already a weak laner. Majorly nerfing his one laning tool isn't a realistic option.

I wouldn't use this as a balance option. Balance can more effectively be attained by hitting other things.

50% AP scaling would still be good.

It also wouldn't fix anything for his balance state. You could completely remove the AP scaling and he'd still be exactly as strong as he is now, because his strongest builds include no AP. You aren't actually hitting anything that makes him a strong pick. You're hitting a weaker build.

It just wouldn't do anything for his balance state, so from a balance perspective, it's completely pointless. All it does is make a bad build worse. What we need to do is make a strong build worse.

So why is it that with a full AP build Blitzcrank himself can destroy soft targets without the help of teammates if the whole point of his kit is to help his teammates?

It allows players the option to take him into unusual roles such as midlane, top or jungle without being just a tankier version of support Blitzcrank. It lets him be better at bursting someone down, which is always his primary function in any role, but it comes at a major cost to the team for not having a better and/or more flexible champion filling his slot. It's balanced so that even on a purely pick-based team, he's underpowered, which makes it acceptable.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see any problem whatsoever in AP Blitz. He's a weak pick in every situation, and it's always inferior to other things you could have played. With that in mind, I see no harm in allowing it to exist so people can troll around with him on occasion. You may find it annoying, as we all find something in this game annoying, but my only answer is that you're just going to have to accept it and move on.

Blitzcrank base stats resemble a tank support.

Not really. They're low for a tank. They can go lower. It's proven to be a good balance lever when he's too strong in the past, and can be used again now.

ArakadiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

A champions viability shouldn't revolve around one ability. He deserves a rework as he's reliant on his Q and if you get hooked it feels unfair, but if he gets nerfed no one will play him. It appears he's in a zona where he's either UP or OP, but not balanced necessarily. Just my analysis. Once your hooked, he's getting your SS or your life.

Sightless66Feb 9, 20163 votes

It appears he's in a zona where he's either UP or OP, but not balanced necessarily.

Not really. He's been in a balanced state for a long time, and there's not much difficulty in putting him back there whenever his balance state changes. He's been successfully reeled in multiple times with small ability or base stat changes.

For all the problems Blitzcrank has, "difficult to balance" is not one of them. This is not a valid complaint.

A champions viability shouldn't revolve around one ability.

I disagree. It works fine for him. It's possible to play around him, there are clear opportunities to punish him, and you can have team strategies based around engagement that shut him down effectively. Him being based around one ability doesn't make him unfair, because the actual playstyle has enough ways for people to respond to it.

Once your hooked, he's getting your SS or your life.

I can say that for most pick-off abilities. If I get hit by an ahri charm when she's got any kind of teammates I'm not making it out without burning something important. Not sufficient justification for a redesign.

ArakadiaFeb 9, 20161 votes

Idk how you did those boxes, i've seen them b4. So I'll quote you.

I do take back "It appears he's in a zone where he's either UP or OP, but not balanced necesarilly." Though I will add onto it. If his hook is so strong as it is right now, his Q will seem unfair or will be useless, and this making blitz useless. It just _ feels_ very unfair as if the only counterplay is to dodge it, and if he lands one hook you lose.

"A champions viability shouldn't revolve around one ability.

Notice I said his viability shouldn't revolve around one ability. Not that hes broken or unfair. Its that the only reason ppl pick and play blitzcrank is for his hook. His WHOLE viability revolves around his hook. Give him Braum's Q and Braums passive which are quite strong and he would suck. That doesn't seem healthy for a champion. People pick say.... Illaoi because shes tanky, strong, cool and interesting, has sustain from her Q passive, and is a juggernaut. People pick Thresh because he gives mobility through his lantern, has a hook, can knock enemies up, has a cool passive, is very strong, and a play making support. The reason people play blitzcrank is because of his Q... his model is bulky and kinda unrealistic, but has a certain look to it thats pretty cool. His lore is nothing special. The ONLY reason I see people pick blitzcrank, is because of his hook.

The two biggest things I think wrong with blitz is he's sooooo reliant on his Q, and it feels really bad when you get hooked and just.... die. Half the damage seems like its from his combo and nothing else. The main point of this post was not at all that blitz was broken, it was why does his Q have so much scaling and base damage for a tank support? Supports are supposed to save allies, secure kills, and get the advantage for their team. So why does a support do damage, he supposed to secure kills not get them.

Sightless66Feb 9, 20161 votes

Quote boxes are done like this

.> whatever you want to quote. Don't put a period in front of the >

That doesn't seem healthy for a champion.

Why? If it's robust enough to make him worth picking, it's interesting enough to attract a lot of fans, and there is plenty of room to play against it, what's unhealthy? It seems like it meets all the core criteria for healthiness right there.

The ONLY reason I see people pick blitzcrank, is because of his hook.

Again, why should this matter? When taken in context with his kit, he still has enough going on to be as interesting,

I seriously don't see what you're trying to get at here. The only complaint you seem to have is that he doesn't fit within some standard you have that dictates how many mechanics a champion can have, but the standard itself seems arbitrary. Why should it matter at all if he's based primarily around one ability if the kit overall has as much potential to be interesting as other kits?

The two biggest things I think wrong with blitz is he's sooooo reliant on his Q,

Again, not seeing a problem. In fact, this seems like a positive. Blitzcrank players like being reliant on his Q because it means more power can be focused in it, which feels good.

it feels really bad when you get hooked and just.... die.

That's a valid complaint. I don't think it's worth changing the champion over because it's never a situation where you don't have ways to play against the hook, but it is a cost to his design.

Given your past comments, it really kind of seems like this is the biggest complaint you have about him. You dislike playing against him. Does that seem like a fair assessment to you? It certainly seems to be the strongest point you are making. Everything else just seems really arbitrary to me. It seems more like "I don't particularly like the kit" than "the kit is poorly designed". That's perfectly fine by the way. There's nothing wrong with not liking a kit. If I'm wrong with my assessment, then my bad there.

why does his Q have so much scaling and base damage for a tank support?

The base damage is there because every champion needs some form of damage or extreme damage mitigation to function in the laning phase. Blitzcrank has no other trading mechanisms besides his Q, and he has no fallback patterns besides the Q, so the Q has to have a high base damage or he simply can't lane. A pull means nothing in lane if you just lose the trade afterwards anyway because you don't hurt enough, and the lack of damage and trading potential in his other abilities necessitates loading up the base damage of his Q.

High base damage also enhances his play pattern. Blitzcrank's purpose is picking off and bursting down enemies. Damage is an important part of that.

Supports are supposed to save allies,

No, supports are meant to lane without last hitting. Everything else is kit-specific. Blitzcrank's kit has no mechanics that enable saving allies, so it isn't his job, and no one who plays Blitzcrank is interested in that being part of his job.

Damage is not a mechanic that is forbidden to supports. There are multiple supports picked primary or only for damage. It's a valid role for them, and it's a role Blitzcrank falls into. He's designed for pickoff and only pickoff, and damage is important for enabling that in the early and mid game.

why does his Q have so much scaling

Because there is no reason to remove it. His strongest builds have no AP. AP makes his builds worse. He doesn't function better than other AP-based pickoff champions even when building AP. Because of that, there's no reason to strip the AP scaling from him unless there is a consensus that the AP build is annoying, and that consensus does not exist.

ArakadiaFeb 10, 20161 votes

Lets hope I get the quote boxes right and don't just put random symbols.

Why? If it's robust enough to make him worth picking, it's interesting enough to attract a lot of fans, and there is plenty of room to play against it, what's unhealthy? It seems like it meets all the core criteria for healthiness right there.

Its not healthy as thats the _only _reason people pick him. People pick should pick him for many reasons. If a blitz misses his hook or your bad at just his Q, your useless. If your karma and you, just in all games, can't for the life of you hit your Q, you can snare them with your W and then Q. As Karma, if you Q and miss and then W and they walk out of range or something you still have your E and/or ult. If blitz misses hes pretty much useless. A champion should have many reasons to be picked and have a backup plan. Corrections: A succesfull and healthy champion should have many reasons to be picked and have a backup plan.

Again, not seeing a problem. In fact, this seems like a positive. Blitzcrank players like being reliant on his Q because it means more power can be focused in it, which feels good.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Read above!

Again, why should this matter? When taken in context with his kit, he still has enough going on to be as interesting,

I seriously don't see what you're trying to get at here. The only complaint you seem to have is that he doesn't fit within some standard you have that dictates how many mechanics a champion can have, but the standard itself seems arbitrary. Why should it matter at all if he's based primarily around one ability if the kit overall has as much potential to be interesting as other kits?

What is interesting? His lore isn't and hit model isn't. His model has a "look" to it thats kinda cool but his lore isn't anything special. He doesn't really build mana unless you get Frozen Heart or IceBorn gauntlant and his passive isn't really that interesting or interactive. His W and E are boring and his ult is just another ult. Its not a Bard ult or Kalista ult. Heck Galio's ult is cooler imo. His coolest thing is his hook which can be missed. But once you land it, blitz does alot of damage and his allies can finish you off. Thats what I don't like is that once your hit you can't do that much back. Kayle and Lulu could ult you, but thats counter pick not counterplay. Thats also assuming you have a support who has "tank upgrade" or life saving ults. A support shouldn't have to ult you just because blitz landed one skillshot. Nami's Q is approximetly as difficult to land, if not harder with less damage and shes not a tank, and only stuns/knocks you up. Her Q doesn't pull you all the way in so she can CC lock you with damage and allies. The only "cool" things about Blitz that I see is hes a robot and his Q. He could use a rework imo.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Read above!

That's a valid complaint. I don't think it's worth changing the champion over because it's never a situation where you don't have ways to play against the hook, but it is a cost to his design.

What if Blitz just stood in front of your minion waves, between you and the waves. If you have say.... kogmaw and karma your kinda screwed. If you try to poke him he can hook you. Both these people are squishy and Karma's Q is lower range then Blitz's Q. Kogmaw's Q is longer range but low damage and is supposed to be used with basic attacks to actually use your armor shred it apples. This is what I don't like about blitz. Its just so unfun when I play against him. Ofc if I can dodge his hooks and get him behind its fine, but he still will pull me late game and I'll get melted like butter when his team attacks me. But just because I dislike Blitz isn't a reason to rework or nerf him. I think its because hes a tank support yet has AP scaling and high base damage on his Q and he is boring besides his Q which he is reliant on.

"Given your past comments, it really kind of seems like this is the biggest complaint you have about him. You dislike playing against him. Does that seem like a fair assessment to you? It certainly seems to be the strongest point you are making. Everything else just seems really arbitrary to me. It seems more like "I don't particularly like the kit" than "the kit is poorly designed". That's perfectly fine by the way. There's nothing wrong with not liking a kit. If I'm wrong with my assessment, then my bad there. "

omfg..... thank you for not just insulting me, going "LOL", or saying im completely wrong. This was nice you were kinda friendly Tristana .

The base damage is there because every champion needs some form of damage or extreme damage mitigation to function in the laning phase. Blitzcrank has no other trading mechanisms besides his Q, and he has no fallback patterns besides the Q, so the Q has to have a high base damage or he simply can't lane. A pull means nothing in lane if you just lose the trade afterwards anyway because you don't hurt enough, and the lack of damage and trading potential in his other abilities necessitates loading up the base damage of his Q.

High base damage also enhances his play pattern. Blitzcrank's purpose is picking off and bursting down enemies. Damage is an important part of that.

Hooking an enemy in is not a form of "trade". Its much more. Thats like giving Zed or Talon's ults buffs and saying "they need this in order to trade with even burstier assasins". Not that that should happen or that there is burstier assasins, but that its not trading but more damage and risk. This is Why I think blitz needs a rework. His Q is his only form of trade in your words. Its the only really interesting thing about him and its the only way for him to get his ADC a kill. Karma has her Q and W while her E speeds them up. Braum can slow the enemy, stun the enemy, or knock them up. He can even create an AoE slow too. He has no trade potential and cannot hurt the enemy without his Q which will lead up to easy and free damage after you land it. He should have more to handle and more to use imo. You should look at a blitz rework Idea I created conveinently before I saw this post.

No, supports are meant to lane without last hitting. Everything else is kit-specific. Blitzcrank's kit has no mechanics that enable saving allies, so it isn't his job, and no one who plays Blitzcrank is interested in that being part of his job.

You quote boxed only "Supports are mean't for saving people". I also said, which you conveniently left out: "Supports are supposed to save allies, secure kills, and get the advantage for their team. So why does a support do damage, he supposed to secure kills not get them."

Why is the support getting the kill just by landing one skillshot, or atleast getting their SS or some important ability and alot of the adc's health, and getting the kill by themselves. Their supposed to secure kills and set up kills but not hand them to the adc like the salt on a table. Once he lands his Q it seems too easy.

Overall I don;t think blitz is OP or UP but needs a rework to give him more counterplay once your hooked, make him more interesting, and a little more stuff to deal with but more stuff to use. His passive scales off mana and his abilities scale off AP. You get talismen of ascension (I think) on him even tho hes a tank which would normally get Face of The Mountain. It seems he needs maybe a more defined role, although idk really. You should look at my rework idea, I tried to keep blitz the robot he is but make him... better. Its a little overloaded tho.

Thanks for not just insulting me and giving me some credit, but not enough to agree ofc. This is was a friendly debate in my view.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20162 votes

Well, if everyone says so. I've played AP champions with skills that have 250 base and about 50-70% scaling and they still hit hard.

In my opinion there doesn't need to be that high of damage on Blitz when his role is a tank/fighter and a support at that, but people disagree. I knew this would be a controversial topic to talk on.

Anyways, my point was trying to figure out why he has such high damage and scaling. You say it would destroy his laning to knock it down to 250 and the scaling to 50%. Many, many, many other tanks and supports lane with less scaling and less base damage than him. Yet, they manage.

Maybe it's different the higher ranked you go. I don't play ranked though because I just don't like the anger and salt when your team is losing. It's stupid to rage when you're losing. I'm sure people think I am raging about Blitz when I was genuinely curious and was trying to talk about it and hear why it couldn't be lower.

You're one of the very few who have talked civil with me over this. Shrugs Idk though. Imo Blitz does deserve a rework. Then again, doesn't every champion? Only champion I regret they did was Fiora....I'm sure lots of people disagree with me, but that ult of hers is completely useless in a teamfight. She is definitely meant for 1v1's. I don't mind the current three abilities (I can work with those), but that ult...it lasts for such a short time and heals for crap. Useful in 1v1s or in certain circumstances to grab a clutch heal. Imo it should of been a targeted zone that forced a 1v1 duel with no outside help. THAT would have been unique.

But....I started rambling. Apologies. I thank you for the information though.

The WhamboozlerFeb 9, 20161 votes

AP champions might have lower scalings, but more of their abilities hurt. Blitz has three damaging abilities and one of them (his power fist) scale off AD, not AP, since it's just an auto attack buff. Imagine a mage with only TWO abilties that scale off of AP. That "mage" would either need absurd base damage, absurd scaling or to be more useful for utility and support. Guess what Blitz is better for than damage? That's right... utility.

Honestly, his damage is only there so he can help his team burst his grab target. AP Blitz does NOT blow up teams. He sucks.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

AP Blitz does NOT blow up teams. He sucks.

I'm not sure what AP Blitz's you've played with or against, but he hurts. A lot. One pull on a squishy from an AP Blitz and that squishy is poof, gone. Now, granted. If an AP Blitz is shut down and doesn't have items or can't make the plays to secure his kills then yeah. He will suck since he won't be able to really come back from that, but a good AP Blitz will hurt you and will not suck. That of course can be said about any champ played with anyone good with them.

Anyways, I got the info I required already, but I thank you for your input.

The WhamboozlerFeb 9, 20161 votes

Of course he hurts if he's invested all his gold into raw AP damage. It would be pretty stupid if buying nothing but damage made you still unable to do damage. He still kinda sucks.

His durability is terrible... so much so that walking to the front of his team to TRY for a hook can see him tagged and killed by enemies with long-range spells almost instantly. He's far too squishy to run into the middle of the enemy team to ult without dying, so the best full AP blitz can really do is land a grab and ult for a massive chunk of damage on a single enemy. If he grabs a carry they're dead, sure. But if normal non-AP blitz grabs a carry and pulls them into his team they're dead anyway to his teammates. If the enemy isn't braindead however the carries should be safely behind their front line though, so more likely than not, Blitz is going to land that grab on someone like Darius. Good luck killing him! I'm sure he'll be able to wreck Blitz's squishy butt though. If Blitz REALLY messes up he might grab an initiator like Malphite or Wukong and help them go their job!

There are plenty of champs who burst harder than blitz and do so without having to somehow get into the middle of multiple people. Brand may not have 1.0 AP scaling, but he has four damaging abilities that work at a range. So do most mages. Blitz has ONE ranged ability. His Q. His easily missed Q. If you are playing against a blitz you know EXACTLY what he's going to try to do too... since he only does the ONE THING. Just dodge that Q. BAM. AP blitz is now a fragile, useless thing that is easy to poke to death or blow up in one brutal all-in. Just because he does a lot of damage if everything goes perfectly for him doesn't really make him good. A fiddlesticks with a full crit-marksman build would do a lot of damage if left to auto attack all day.... that doesn't make Fiddlesticks a good marksman! It makes him a champion that some crazy-person built as a marksman and somehow succeeded as.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

Well, at least someone actually admits his damage does a shit ton on an AP build. Most others just deny he does damage at all.

Anyways, yeah. His Q can be dodged and you know what he is going to do, and the only hard part is telling what direction he is going to throw that Q before he throws it because the missile speed is quite fast on it despite what people say. At least to me anyways.

But, I thank you for the info.

The WhamboozlerFeb 10, 20162 votes

No prob. Just keep in mind champs with high scalings like Blitz often have it because they rarely build much AP and so every point of it needs to count. Malphite and Hecarim both have absurd AP scaling on their ults but you wouldn't really consider glass cannon AP Malph or Hecarim OP. They're better built to do other things and the high scaling is just so if they happen to end up with some AP they put it to use.

Sightless66Feb 9, 20161 votes

You say it would destroy his laning to knock it down to 250 and the scaling to 50%. Many, many, many other tanks and supports lane with less scaling and less base damage than him.

They have other mechanics. They get to use their damage much more often, or they have defensive CC, or they get more reliable damage. Even if their one-ability burst is less than what Blitz has, most supports have much more general access to damage than he does. That's why he's so bad in lane already, even with the high base damage on his Q.

Also, lowering the scaling wouldn't hurt his lane. It wouldn't hurt anything. It wouldn't help his balance state either. That's kind of the point. It's not a part of his balance state. He's balanced around never using it. Because of that, we can't use balance to justify nerfing it, because it's not contributing anything to him being strong right now. That also means that the only justification for nerfing the scaling would be that people find it annoying, but that's not really a common opinion either.

his role is a tank/fighter and a support at that

Blitz being a tank isn't even really that accurate. He builds tanky, but his purpose is solely focused into pick-offs. He can't protect allies at all, he doesn't have any sustained CC, he can't counterengage, etc. He can't do almost anything real tanks do. All he does is pick people off. Damage is an important part of that.

Also, being a support means nothing for his damage potential. There are plenty of supports picked only for their damage potential. Blitz is closer to them in design than he is to tanks or utility supports.

Imo Blitz does deserve a rework.

I mean, I can agree that Blitz could technically be designed better. Theoretically, there's certainly nothing wrong with the idea of reworking him. However, I just don't see him being worth the time when compared to all the other priorities in the game.

Imo it should of been a targeted zone that forced a 1v1 duel with no outside help.

We've done that with Poppy's old ultimate. Doesn't work in this game. It completely removes all options from the opposing team when the assassin champion is far enough ahead. Limiting options is pretty good, but removing them all by not allowing any interference is an entirely different type of problem.

I agree that it would be really cool thematically, but the gameplay just doesn't work out. It's a nice thought though.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

Well, whatever Blitz is I have the info I needed.

As for Fiora. Yeah, I guess what I am saying is like Poppy's old ult. Though what I mean is an actual zone. Something that pushes out all enemies and allies. Minions and champions alike. Leaving only a duel arena for Fiora and her opponent. Just the current ult in her rework is just weak. The only thing that is useful about it is the four marks that it gives her, but in a team fight hitting them is extremely hard. You have everyone in every area or clumped together. Not leaving much for Fiora to use her ult and when she does pull it off the heal is almost negligible. It might be good for a clutch save, but the health is almost nothing.

Maybe it's just me and I miss the old Fiora...well, it's no lie that I actually do. I really hope they do revisit her in the future and at least give her a better ultimate. The current ult is just so...meh. Maybe that's just me though.

Hopefully in the future the champions who get reworked have them reworked well. The crits on Ashe and MF are just....shudders But anyways, idk.

Fiora is one I just think they really got wrong. :| One flaw besides the ult (imo btw) is the Q. While it's nice that it takes more skill to move around it is also true that it doesn't always hit an enemy. Point in case. A recent match I had Q'd towards the enemy who had moved into a bush. So she didn't attack them....however there were three other champions AND minions around that she didn't even touch. Maybe that was a bug, or maybe it just didn't go off. Idk though. shrugs

Back onto Blitz though. The no counterengage? You mean something to get enemies away from you? Well, while he has no pushes he does have some crazy knock up and silence when they get close. Idk how many times his knock up has saved several champions from certain death. Myself included. He does have some pretty decent lockdown mechanics which, imo, is one of the strongest in the game. The other being Morgana's snare and Annie's stuns (if those are included in locking down enemies)....Those things are sooooo long. I mean, granted Brand has a 2s stun, but that requires two spells to hit where as theirs require one. Albeit for annie it's after a few spells.

Sightless66Feb 9, 20161 votes

The no counterengage? You mean something to get enemies away from you?

Yeah, and I'm sticking to that. He has a 1 second knockup that requires melee range and can be interrupted or dash-cancelled during the casting animation and a 0.5 second silence. That's terrible for actually peeling someone with any reliability. I've been saved more often by CC from my AD carry than I've been saved by CC from Blitz. I wouldn't call his lockdown some of the strongest in the game. It's good enough for following up after a hook, but it has no traits that make it effective independently of the hook.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20161 votes

Well, idk about that. Is there really a tell for when he activated his knockup? If so it must be extremely subliminal as I've never seen it until I am knocked up into the air. RIP.

Still, if he is able to lock you down his lock down is definitely strong. I'd say the best lock down I've seen has been from Leona players. Her lockdowns are crazy.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20162 votes

Blitzcrank's Q is extremely powerful.

But that is the justification for him having a garbage W and E... both with atrocious scaling.

Sir YamazukiFeb 8, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04tKdEcb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-08T07:24:49.934+0000)

Blitzcrank's Q is extremely powerful.

But that is the justification for him having a garbage W and E... both with atrocious scaling.

A knock up every 5 seconds before factoring his cdr isn't garbage, I know most of you people honestly only care about damage but he's mainly played as a support that builds tank items and cdr. Between Q and E he can protect carries very well, although again, I know most people assume Blitzcrank is only capable of offensive plays even though he can use his grab defensively which is easier to land.

ArakadiaFeb 9, 20162 votes

You haven't explained why he has high damage.

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20162 votes

No one has explained it really. It's all I wanted to know. His pull is a utility that allows him to pick enemies and bring them to him and his team, and yet the damage output is extremely high that on an AP Blitz he can kill squishies and hurt tanks with his combo. His pull would do the same thing without such high damage. That same thing everyone has been talking about (the Pull) would still Pull enemies without such high damage.

Idk. I'm just tempted in deleting this thread because no one has any real reason for the high damage. They say "His pull is what makes him useful. Allows him to pick off enemies away from his ADC. etc. etc.l" and I'm sitting here like "But....I never said anything about removing the pull. Just wondering why he had such high damage on it for being a support and a tank."

Probably people think that he has it because his pull is the only thing useful and so why not give it such high damage since it is his only useful thing. The thing useful about it, and what people use it for, is the pull. Not the damage. So why are people so up in arms about me talking about the damage if the damage isn't what people find useful?

BoulderoxFeb 9, 20162 votes

I'm fine with it, the only thing I'd like to know is why blitz hook can pull to him, but Nautilus meets in the middle with target... When nautalis Is LARGER than blitz and blitz arm has no thematic way he can pull with a force to not break his extension cable... Makes no sense to me thematically.

ZT XperimentorFeb 9, 20161 votes

Never seen those anchor chains on battleships have you? That's several tons of solid cast iron chain links nearly as big as a man (well the older ones anyway). And while I've no answer why blitzcrank does what he doesn't; I speculate it's because amumu & blitzcrank already had both 'pull' concepts used, and didn't want him to be a clone. Same with thresh, to keep him from just having a clone ability, they made it an in-between.

BoulderoxFeb 9, 20161 votes

yes, i can see why they did it, but Thresh and Amumu are the same, just thresh can choose to go in or not i feel. It's just weird seeing champs like Nautilus being able to dance around with that anchor, but i guess nautalis is technically really light if his joke flying is taken seriously??? and since when does copying attributes to champs illegal to the game? Q is devolved to a spam spell Ekko Kindred TahmKench Gnar Azir Illaoi have something with a weird mechanic involving managing something. Azir Illaoi (tentale range management) Jhin Gangplank (damn barrels ) not carbon copies persay but still showing..

ZT XperimentorFeb 9, 20161 votes

I didn't say attributes, I was referring to the specific mechanic of a ranged grapple. Just because an ability is spamable doesn't mean it's identical either; for example amumu's E (tantrum) is a mild aoe blast with a medium cooldown but shorter if he's being focused, alistar's E (triumphant roar) is a weak but also medium cooldown heal that can be spammed if his allies are being focused. However I agree they seem to enjoy forcing minigames into champion kits now (fiora, illiao, jihn, graves, skarner, ext).

Nikushimi ZeroFeb 9, 20162 votes

Fiora's is the worst imo....I mean, it's nice, but in a team fight? Good luck hitting her marks. Especially when she ults. Most useless ult imo.

As for Jhin and Graves. I kinda like their mechanic of ammo. It's pretty nifty, and I've created several champions which use an ammo system and seeing it in place makes me happy and see how it would actually work in game.