If TL doesn't take a single game off G2 at MSI, I'm not watching a single game of LCS.

DarkSoul1994·May 13, 2019·2 votes·2,215 views

I've been watching LCS since its inception, and have been an NA supporter since Season 2 Worlds (started playing LoL right around 2012 regional Qualifiers leading up to Season 2 Worlds). Despite now being an OCE player, support NA as it was my first server (because we didn't get a server until mid-2013). NA was my de facto home.

In that time, I have bandwagon'ed the NA first seed every MSI, every Worlds, every Rift Rivals. I watched the old guard teams (Curse, DIgnitas, CLG, TSM) rise and fall as teams like Cloud9 and Immortals joined the scene. I followed Curse domestically despite their past failures, continued to follow them as Team Liquid through the Dardoch and Piglet years. I went ballistic at Riot on Twitter when they didn't accept IMT or DIG into NA franchising.

What I'm trying to say is, the only region I've ever supported has been NA. But no longer. NA isn't growing like it used to. It's not even ahead like it used to be. NA has been using imports as a crutch for years but they don't even have the financial leverage to lure S-tier players to LCS anymore.

NA needs to step up. Fix your lag issues. Fix your solo Q. Stop forking out literally millions on imports just so they can become as mediocre as the rest of NA it its lax environment.

If TL can't take a SINGLE game off G2 at MSI in Groups or Semi-Finals, or if they lose another game to PVB/FW I will BURN my relatively new TL jersey that took nearly 2 months to make it to Australia. I will boycott NA streamers. I will not watch a single game of LCS for the rest of the time I follow Esports.

NA can ruin itself, but I'm not wasting another second, or another dollar, while it continues its downward spiral.

35 Comments

mack9112May 13, 20192 votes

I’m just happy a video game I enjoy has a competetive scene but you do you man ..

III BAKURYU III May 13, 20191 votes

NA v NA is "competitive" but the problem is that NA has been a large disappointment since well, forever! on the International stage and yet, nothing happens other than Play-In stages at MSI/Worlds. NA gets buffed up as a "major" region when in reality it's 4th on a good day and 5th - maybe even the 7th best region more times than not.

Pandemic PunchMay 13, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Itz D Exorcist ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=mrb108Ef,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-13T12:24:15.136+0000)

NA v NA is "competitive" but the problem is that NA has been a large disappointment since well, forever! on the International stage and yet, nothing happens other than Play-In stages at MSI/Worlds. NA gets buffed up as a "major" region when in reality it's 4th on a good day and 5th - maybe even the 7th best region more times than not.

Not ALWAYS a disappointment. Most of the time? Sure.

-TSM won 1st place at IEM. Same tournament the dominant GE Tigers participated in. The same GE Tigers that had PraY, GorillA, and Smeb. GE Tigers was by far the most dominant team in Korea 2015 Spring. They didn't lose a single match and went 14-2 total in their games. Impressive 1st place win that is always forgotten about.

-CLG won 2nd place at MSI 2016. This one was less forgotten about but I haven't seen it talked about lately.

-C9 won 4th place at worlds last year. People seem to play this one down due to their poor performance vs Fnatic. But let us not forget how they achieved the spot to actually play vs Fnatic in the first place.

NA is not always terrible internationally. TL at MSI right now is probably one of the worst performances I have ever seen from an NA team on an international stage. But to be honest, I was not expecting TL to do well. The manner in which they swept TSM did not look like a testament to how good TL is. It looked more like a testament to how bad TSM played (TSM will look better in the Summer Split as they get more used to each other). I actually predicted TL to struggle vs Flash Wolves and PVB. I was wrong about them struggling vs PVB but still.... They aren't looking pretty. I also don't remember a single time Doublelift actually did well internationally either which drove me to be so pessimistic in regards to TL's performance.

When TL comes back to NA, they aren't going to be the best team in the Summer Split. I am predicting 4th place.

iPogoZMay 13, 20191 votes

Results of last 2 years; Eu 2nd worlds 2018 3-4th worlds 2018 3-4th MSI 2018 5-8th worlds 2017 5-8th worlds 2017 2nd MSI 2017

NA 3-4th worlds 2018 5-8th worlds 2017

iPogoZMay 13, 20191 votes

Just to prove my point, if Gigabyte marines beat fnatic in the 2017 world tiebreaker, TL would have been the 6th seed at this years MSI.

BigBellBruteMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Just to prove my point, if Gigabyte marines beat fnatic in the 2017 world tiebreaker, TL would have been the 6th seed at this years MSI.

And we would have qualified for knockouts anyway. The difference between 5th and 6th seed is zilch because everyone plays everyone twice in groups. So your point is moot

iPogoZMay 15, 20191 votes

That's not what im saying, I'm using the fact that they are barely considered a major region as a counter point to the claim that NA and EU are competitive. In the future, when making a comment/argument pay attention to the argument being made. Also there would be a big difference between 5th and 6th seed because 6th seed plays in playin groups at MSI and also doesn't get to send 3 teams to worlds. Which means that if it wasn't for Fnatics beating GIgabyte marines, C9 legit wouldn't have qualified for worlds and thus wouldn't have made it to semi's.

III BAKURYU III May 13, 20191 votes

IEM really has no weight in the grand scheme of things because well, it doesn't. It's like a NBA team having the best record in the pre-season. Region Playoffs, MSI and Worlds have weight, while Rift Rivals and IEM are just there to be there.

I made a post on how either a D-Lift lead team or a Bjergsen lead team will be an instant loss for NA because both suck on the International stage.

Yes, 2016 was in my opinion, the best year for NA. I understand C9 went to Semi-Finals in 2018 and only C9 made it out of Groups in 2016 but NA really stepped up that year with(MSI as you said from CLG) so I get that it's not every year/tournament that NA sucks.......it feels like it, doesn't it ?

I think maybe I compare NA to other regions' success and that's where it becomes hard to see. Maybe when Fnatic went from 0-4 in Groups 2017 to eliminating Immortals to advance to Playoffs, as well as when TSM went from 2-0 to 3-4 and losing to Misfits(Who they talked s$it about prior) was when I really took it to heart.

I agree TSM will be a much better team in the Summer as they should with the upgrades from Hauntzer to BB and Mithy to Smoothie. Going to steer clear of predicting rankings until I see the final rosters for every team.

ChompyWulfMay 13, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Itz D Exorcist ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=mrb108Ef,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2019-05-13T14:38:37.925+0000)

IEM really has no weight in the grand scheme of things because well, it doesn't. It's like a NBA team having the best record in the pre-season. Region Playoffs, MSI and Worlds have weight, while Rift Rivals and IEM are just there to be there.

Yeah, those IEM circuits were weird invitational tournaments, and implying TSM did anything special isn't true. The only team TSM faced who would make it to World's later that year was Flash Wolves. Yes, GE Tigers were there, and they were knocked out by Team WE from China. But this is just a 2 day event and because it was literally in the middle of the spring season and completely unrelated to qualifying to make World's, it's not something teams took seriously. Prize money is nice, but the reason you don't see LoL at IEM anymore was Riot realizing they should try cutting out unnecessary side tournaments and offer more relevant tourneys.

notMineskiexoMay 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, those IEM circuits were weird invitational tournaments, and implying TSM did anything special isn't true. The only team TSM faced who would make it to World's later that year was Flash Wolves. Yes, GE Tigers were there, and they were knocked out by Team WE from China. But this is just a 2 day event and because it was literally in the middle of the spring season and completely unrelated to qualifying to make World's, it's not something teams took seriously. Prize money is nice, but the reason you don't see LoL at IEM anymore was Riot realizing they should try cutting out unnecessary side tournaments and offer more relevant tourneys.

That tournament was actually amazing to watch. Seeing the amount of upset’s that happened was great. It’s actually a tourney that showed Korea actually had weaknesses.

Also why is everyone forget that Sk were coming into that tourney really hot and were also favourites to win.

ChompyWulfMay 13, 20192 votes

SK were probably favorites because they didn't have to travel as far as everyone else for a mid-split tourny. Also, you're delusional. That year was easily a year of Korean dominance. Two Korean teams in Worlds finals, the third knocked out in Quarterfinals by a fellow Korean team, and as a region they only had three total losses in the group stages. IEM may have been fun to watch but a terrible example of international competition.

III BAKURYU III May 13, 20192 votes

My thoughts exactly. Tournaments that don't matter or have no consequences to losing such, decides standings for Worlds, Group seedings etc don't matter.

DarkSoul1994May 14, 20191 votes

Any pros, analysts, casters, commentators etc literally meme how worthless the IEM Tourneys were.

BigBellBruteMay 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Itz D Exorcist ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=mrb108Ef,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-13T12:24:15.136+0000)

NA v NA is "competitive" but the problem is that NA has been a large disappointment since well, forever! on the International stage and yet, nothing happens other than Play-In stages at MSI/Worlds. NA gets buffed up as a "major" region when in reality it's 4th on a good day and 5th - maybe even the 7th best region more times than not.

7th best region. Ok so China is better on average. We know that. Korea, sure. EU much of the time yes. But we're definitely 4th or arguably 5th sometimes behind Taiwan. But who are your 5th and 6th ahead of NA? Not even close. Vietnam isn't better. Russia isn't better. Turkey isn't better. All the other regions sure aren't better. To say NA is 7th more times than not is just silly.

iPogoZMay 15, 20191 votes

Im assuming his argument is Turkey and Vietnam but that is an overstatement, NA is 4th right now largely because of the LMS being on a huge down fall along with veitnam underperforming recently.

GeminiRuneMay 13, 20191 votes

Guys...I think I'm too calm about this overreacting. Is it just me or this what depression as a NA fan is defecting to?

DarkSoul1994May 13, 20191 votes

Try writing that again but in a coherent sentence.

GeminiRuneMay 13, 20193 votes

Eh I made my edits. You do what you need to in order to find your own peace of mind.

III BAKURYU III May 13, 20191 votes

Yeah

III BAKURYU III May 13, 20191 votes

I feel the same way.

Pandemic PunchMay 13, 20191 votes

TL will probably be 3rd or 4th in the summer split. G2 is a significantly better team, they adapt better to multiple strats instead of just playing around bot, and they have better individual players in nearly every role except support.

It is pathetic if you believe this iteration of TL is the best hope for NA. This is the worst international performance NA has ever done. The best is either TSM at IEM or C9 at worlds last year.

DarkSoul1994May 13, 20191 votes

TSM in 2016 Summer Split was the last time a first seed from NA looked any good coming into International Competition.

Right now NA has 2 endemic players who aren't a complete joke internationally - Licorice and Doublelift. They hold their own. They're nothing special when every other region has a player in that position who's just as good plus 4 other players on their team who are at that level on their respective roles.

All NA ever achieved by importing players from EUW was stall out EUW completely overtaking NA. NA didn't improve in the meantime. Now EU players aren't willing to come to NA because they get paid similarly without having to relocate to a different continent.

Like I said, I feel bad for Jensen, PoE, Bjergsen etc because they would really be something special right now if they stayed in EUW.

GeminiRuneMay 13, 20191 votes

Yeah....yknow let's not ever remember CLG. Right?

ChompyWulfMay 13, 20192 votes

I must argue that Doublelift is a joke internationally. There was always a flop when he was on CLG and it went the same when he joined TSM. Even in 2017, the Ardent Censer and ADC meta he should have shined in, TSM fans rejoicing they had a "Group of Life" this year, got beat by the #3 seeds from China and EU. DLift succeeds in NA, but is easily outside top 10 internationally every year.

DarkSoul1994May 14, 20191 votes

I'd argue that he was good last year at MSI and Worlds and he's doing okay at MSI at the moment. But TL never went deep enough into those tournaments (and likely won't make it deep into this year's MSI) to make a reasonable judgement.

But honestly, TL was doomed this year when Jungle went away from Tank Junglers to Skirmish Junglers and exposed the fuck out of Xmithie.

ChompyWulfMay 14, 20191 votes

He may be stabilizing finally, which is good, he's got to go further to shake the past strikeouts from his international reputation.

It is a shame Xmithie just can't make plays with aggressive junglers like other pros can.

DarkSoul1994May 14, 20191 votes

He's never had the mechanics for it. Never. Xmithie's entire schtick is that he's all macro and no mechanics. That was fine a few years ago, but nowadays (at least in KR, CN and EUW) having good macro is the baseline for competitive viability. Xmithie is just a remnant from a time where Junglers could get away with playing tanks and having good macro. He can't hold a candle to modern Junglers from most Major Regions.

iPogoZMay 13, 20191 votes

I think it has to do with their mentality, if you read on why TSM kicked DL it's cause they wanted to break the playstyle of staling for late and tgen rely on teamfights. I mean it is kinda obvious if you look at NA's FB% and G-Dif@15 stats. This stratagy has alwase worked in NA but international teams are better at closing out games. Another big problem is ADC players in NA, cause of this late game strategy most teams heavily index their resources into their bot lane, but in teamfights these players go for flashy plays which, tend to work in NA, but against the stronger compitition at international events, just get hard punished. This is why players like Codysun and DL alwase chock and why TSM picked up a smarter, more versatile adc in Zven. Because they dont need to index in bot lane it gives them much needed versatility and adaptability which most NA teams lack. I think TSM and C9 actually should do well at worlds but as TL is going to MSI, they are gonna keep getting stomped.

BigBellBruteMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I think it has to do with their mentality, if you read on why TSM kicked DL it's cause they wanted to break the playstyle of staling for late and tgen rely on teamfights. I mean it is kinda obvious if you look at NA's FB% and G-Dif@15 stats. This stratagy has alwase worked in NA but international teams are better at closing out games. Another big problem is ADC players in NA, cause of this late game strategy most teams heavily index their resources into their bot lane, but in teamfights these players go for flashy plays which, tend to work in NA, but against the stronger compitition at international events, just get hard punished. This is why players like Codysun and DL alwase chock and why TSM picked up a smarter, more versatile adc in Zven. Because they dont need to index in bot lane it gives them much needed versatility and adaptability which most NA teams lack. I think TSM and C9 actually should do well at worlds but as TL is going to MSI, they are gonna keep getting stomped.

Yeah and look where kicking DL got them. Out of worlds entirely last year and their legacy smashed. HAHAHAHAHAH.

iPogoZMay 15, 20191 votes

With franchising teams don't need to worry about immediate success so TSM's approach actually makes sense, in terms of legacy winning NA but chocking at international events is a much worst legacy that having 1-2 down years to make a team able to contest internationally. Theu realize that their org isn't gonna thrive off of domestic success so why try indexing into it at the cost of international success.

DarkSoul1994May 14, 20191 votes

Guess I don't have to burn my TL Jersey after all.

GeminiRuneMay 14, 20191 votes

What a wonderful relief that you'll be continuing your LCS viewership...I think.

III BAKURYU III May 14, 20191 votes

Team Liquid just beat G2 Esports.................. We can continue to watch this mediocre region. #feelsgoodman [zombie-brand-clap]

DarkSoul1994May 15, 20191 votes

Stockholm syndrome has set in.

III BAKURYU III May 15, 20191 votes

Especially now that Amazing is back in the NA LCS and on 100 Thieves