Doublelift "Every other team in NA sucks"

Genocide Victim·Sep 30, 2016·60 votes·5,581 views

So does TSM. Get rekt scrubs.

96 Comments

KazaLyn ShaoSep 30, 201636 votes

Getting caught out like 7 times doesn't help your cause. Doublelift never actually got to fight. He was the first man dead every engagement.

YambrinZSep 30, 201617 votes

You think? I wonder why RNG picked Hecarim and Alistar. Hmmmmmmm. Seems like someone lost in champ select. Who was supposed to peel and tank for Doublelift again? Nami? Kennen?

ChaoticPineconeSep 30, 20162 votes

Serves them right for losing in champ select too.

What kind of team forces a remake, then changes the draft to take away the enemy's first rotation picks.

Rockm SockmSep 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Serves them right for losing in champ select too.

What kind of team forces a remake, then changes the draft to take away the enemy's first rotation picks.

RNG forced the remake call when they picked it. They lost the first draft and they made a smart move.

LazyW0lfSep 30, 20161 votes

I wouldn't necessarily say it's smart...more of a dick move. "Oh shit, we've already lost from champ select. Might as well pick Sol and hope the bug emerges to cause a remake so we can have another draft."

He hasn't even had any pro play on the champion, so pulling out a first time pick that everyone knows is bugged after they had a bad draft...it's really fishy.

ChaoticPineconeSep 30, 20162 votes

You really think that a professional team, who had an entire month to prepare the draft, said "Might as well pick Sol and hope for a bug" after going 13-3 in the summer split? Not even considering that Aurelion was enabled, meaning that Riot obviously didnt think this bug would occur. And that TSM was the one who complained about the bug.

And even so, which team made the first deviation from the previous draft? It was TSM. If they were so confident in their Skarner counterpick, why did they firstpick Nami in the first draft but then take away MLXG's Lee Sin with their firstpick in the second game?

Seems to me that TSM tried to play some mindgames but it backfired. RNG banned 3 junglers and took Lee Sin at the earliest possible moment. TSM decided to take away that Lee Sin after seeing MLXG pick it so quickly, forcing MLXG onto his 4th best pick. Nobody forced TSM to do that - they could have first picked Nami as they did previously, then take the Skarner counterpick. If TSM was happy with their draft, it makes no sense that they would deviate from their original draft so hard.

ChaoticPineconeSep 30, 20162 votes

Youre not making any sense.

First of all, you seem to imply that RNG knew the bug would occur even when nobody else, including Riot, did not. Aurelion was not disabled, even after the fiasco against CLG. He is a high pressure midlaner with a early-midgame teamfight spike, and their comp was drafted around it (Lee Sin, Karma, Rumble). Also note that RNG is a team-fight based team - theyre the ones who can be down 10k gold and manage to win a teamfight, as seen in the LPL. Their draft seems to pick perfectly into their gameplan. In fact, their second draft and in-game playstyle was very different from the RNG we're used to seeing, and the casters said it many times. It seems like this was a pocket draft they planned against a better team, but were forced to go to when their first-draft got remade. The level of strategy and composure from the RNG lineup that game was like nothing theyve ever shown before - they are notorious for taking every single fight they can even if they are behind, because they are known for winning fights with a 10k gold deficit (similar to the old QG).

Second, you make it seem like TSM won the first draft, then somebody else forced the remake (ahem - Berj was the one who complained about the issue), then had no choice but to first pick Lee Sin away. Now, I'm not going to blame TSM for the bug, but If they were so confident in their Skarner counterpick, why would you take away the enemy's jungler that they prioritized so highly? They forced MLXG onto Hecarim, where even with first blood, ended up losing 1v1s to the Lee.

RNG banned the same champions as the first draft. There was nothing stopping TSM from first picking Nami, as they did in the first draft. TSM made the affirmative move to change their team comp. If they lost champ select, its their own damn fault.

Only Play DariusSep 30, 201631 votes

Give some credit to Mata though, he made those picks happen. His Alistar game play was about as good as it gets.

CarameI FrappeSep 30, 201610 votes

I was rooting for TSM, I wanted them to win ... but, I noticed that they made a grave mistake ... Look at both TSM and RNG's comps:

TSM Jhin Nami LeeSin Orianna Kennen

RNG Rumble Alistar Hecarim Sivir Cassiopeia

Like, i'm just a Gold II player speaking but ... TSM have 0 tanks on their team while RNG had like, 1 mega tank and 1 semi tank (Rumble). If they played their cards perfectly, I could see TSM winning against their comp ... but the main issue was they didn't respect the fact RNG had tanks. SO when Alistar made godly plays, they couldn't do crap to kill em off quick enough because RNG would roll right over their squishes (which TSM had like 4 squishies, Lee being able to survive most of the onslaught). Even still, it baffled me. It's common knowledge that you need at least 1 tank like champion to keep your backline safe. They didn't have crap to protect their squishies so they suffered for it.

Also it kind of irked me how often they got caught too. No offense to Biofrost, but he missed several bubbles, did three useless ults, and got caught more times than even Jihn. Like, Nami has great disengage but failed 3 / 4ths of the time. I mean Alistar's play probably would of put TSM in a bad position regardless, but TSM made so many mistakes that it was kind of sad, which I expected more from them since they're competing in Worlds.

I'll still be rooting for them, but here's what they need to work on:

Have at least one tank champion
Respect if the other team scales / has better team fights
Stop getting caught every freaken minute

LankPantsSep 30, 20165 votes

Like, i'm just a Gold II player speaking but ... TSM have 0 tanks on their team while RNG had like, 1 mega tank and 1 semi tank (Rumble).

Competitively that's not too important. Lee Sin is a tank in pro play to begin with but you can play 0 tank teams anyway. Rox did play a zero tank team earlier in the day and absolutely dominated that game. TSM lost because RNG played brilliantly, there was no way for TSM to get into that game, RNG just never gave them it.

xJLx MCHammerSep 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Competitively that's not too important. Lee Sin is a tank in pro play to begin with but you can play 0 tank teams anyway. Rox did play a zero tank team earlier in the day and absolutely dominated that game. TSM lost because RNG played brilliantly, there was no way for TSM to get into that game, RNG just never gave them it.

Thank you!

This is a petty excuse. TSM has great disengage and strong counter engagements but you actually have to outplay to take advantage of it. Instead, they got caught over repeatedly and then missed crucial attacks

DroogzySep 30, 201614 votes

Except once Lee Sin transitions into tank mode, he wants to get into the enemy team's backline to wreck havoc, not peel for his carry.

Coupled with a kennen who also wants to dive the enemy team's backline, you have on your backline: Nami, Jhin, and Orianna, a completely immobile squishy backline against a Rumble, Hecarim, and an Alistar, to make matters worst, not just any Alistar, Mata is on him who is considered to be the best Alistar player in the world. That was a recipe for disaster before the game even started.

I get what you're saying, but Lee Sin isn't the tank he's talking about. Team comp wise, it was clear TSM was going to be slaughtered unless they played brilliant. 4 squishies, three of them with near no mobility and not a single tank to peel against an opposing team which had a mega tank, an AP bruiser and an AD bruiser all of whom have the capability to engage and engage HARD onto them. To make matters worst, as I said, it was both an AP and AD bruiser, the squishy players had absolutely no possible way to itemize to survive their hard engage.

TSM had for disengage a nami, except she's going to be blown up repeatedly from the CC and damage of just their support and bruisers. Braum would have been a significantly better choice for BioFrost in this game.

Even had RNG fell behind in laning phase, when it came to teamfighting, there was going to be an Alistar hard engage, followed by Rumble ult, followed by Hecarim ult. Someone on TSM is going to die from just that alone on their team comp and that's not factoring in the insane follow up damage from Sivir and Cassiopeia, whom by themselves can easily handle themselves vs a Kennen and Lee Sin diving them with the defensive tools in their kit.

The other half of it as well was TSM choosing not to respect mismatch: they had a rookie support up against an all star player who's consider to be the best support in the world, not only did they make an awful mistake in giving Mata Alistar (there's a reason Alistar is banned constantly against RNG), they put BioFrost on Nami, whom take it from someone who's most played support is Nami, Alistar is an absolute nightmare match up for Nami. I'm surprised Mata wasn't squealing in his seat when he saw the matchup to his Alistar was a rookie on Nami .

The game was lost in champion select for TSM. And it was lost hard because of the mismatch in support role, and that's not to take away from BioFrost, I think he's done fantastic and he's a great support, he's my favorite player in the NA region right now. However it is easy to see the mismatch between him and Mata and how TSM chose to ignore it.

I Like Things Sep 30, 20164 votes

The other half of it as well was TSM choosing not to respect mismatch: they had a rookie support up against an all star player who's consider to be the best support in the world, not only did they make an awful mistake in giving Mata Alistar (there's a reason Alistar is banned constantly against RNG), they put BioFrost on Nami, whom take it from someone who's most played support is Nami, Alistar is an absolute nightmare match up for Nami. I'm surprised Mata wasn't squealing in his seat when he saw the matchup to his Alistar was a rookie on Nami.

Pure truth. Mata on ANYTHING >>>>>>>> Biofrost on his best champion. That's not to throw shade at Bio, just to say that comparatively speaking he's an infant to Mata.

DroogzySep 30, 20161 votes

I agree, and to add insult to injury, Mata was able to pick a champion that hard counters BioFrost's champion, it was not going to end well.

FortisDominusSep 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I agree, and to add insult to injury, Mata was able to pick a champion that hard counters BioFrost's champion, it was not going to end well.

Nami and jhin bot lane actually hard counters alistar in the bot lane. Mata just played that game like a god and threw his teammates on his back and carried that shit

I Like Things Sep 30, 20162 votes

Hard counters only exist if all players are equally skilled.

Mata could've played rammus support and the result would've still been the same, biofrost severely lacks in experience comparative to someone like Mata. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

DroogzyOct 2, 20162 votes

If you're sitting in lane as Alistar constantly, you're doing something/playing him wrong.

You don't play Alistar for the lane, you play Alistar in conjunction with an ADC that is safe/strong wave clear and you roam to make plays. IE Sivir.

Nami/Jhin can not match the roam power of Alistar, so the fact that they counter him in lane is a moot point as Alistar isn't looking to sit in the lane anyways. Especially when his ADc is Sivir who can wave clear safely.

This is pretty much what happened in TSM v.s. RNG.

FortisDominusOct 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you're sitting in lane as Alistar constantly, you're doing something/playing him wrong.

You don't play Alistar for the lane, you play Alistar in conjunction with an ADC that is safe/strong wave clear and you roam to make plays. IE Sivir.

Nami/Jhin can not match the roam power of Alistar, so the fact that they counter him in lane is a moot point as Alistar isn't looking to sit in the lane anyways. Especially when his ADc is Sivir who can wave clear safely.

This is pretty much what happened in TSM v.s. RNG.

Must be easy to say this in hindsight, because games dont always go that way, there will be games when alistar will have to stay in lane. Alistar still gets countered by jhin and nami and there will be times when alistar has to be in lane or else uzi will get zoned from CS and XP when mata is roaming which will be counter productive to the team.

It would be like me saying kennen does not get countered by maokai because kennen can roam to other lanes with his ult and get kills. what? that does not change the fact that he gets countered by maokai in lane.

DroogzyOct 2, 20161 votes

It is easy for me to say that in hindsight, I'm not going to deny that. But like I said, Alistar needs an ADC that has safe and reliable wave clear. RNG specifically picked Sivir to enable Mata outside of the lane in order to do the roams.

Sivir - Boomerang Blade into Ricochet - Wave is gone.

Something has to go insanely wrong for Uzi to be zoned away from the wave when he only takes a literal second to clear the whole wave with Q-AA-W (AA reset). If it wasn't going to be a Sivir pick, it would have been an Ezreal pick.

Not only that, bottom lane's only form of pressure/CC was Jhin's deadly flourish and Nami's bubble, two highly telegraphed skill shots easy for Uzi to spell shield and dodge. When you have an ADC that is ranked as the 11th best player in the world, you can afford to leave him in lane safely v.s. an ADC with a rookie support.

I do get your analogy, but there are other key points of the Kennen vs Maokai match up isn't just the lane.

If Kennen tries to circumvent around the lane match up v.s. Maokai, he may be successful, but then he still runs into the issue of being countered by Maokai in teamfights.

If Alistar circumvents around the lane match up v.s. Jhin/Nami, he can by pass the lane counter and transition into the team fights in which Alistar will have the advantage.

See the difference? Kennen theoretically has no window of power v.s. Maokai whereas Alistar has a window of power v.s. Jhin/Nami.

Kennen isn't just countered in lane by Maokai because of his tendency to rush Visage for maximum sustain. He's countered by him in teamfights as well. When he uses Slicing Maelstrom into the backline, Maokai pops his ultimate to significantly reduce his damage output. Kennen is counter by Maokai in both laning and team fighting and will get punished heavily for roaming if he is not successful.

Kennen also NEEDS the farm in order to stay relevant and function in game, if he roamed as much as an Alistar did, he'd be a non factor every single game. Alistar once he hits 6, could care less about the farm and EXP. He's the second best roaming support in the game behind Bard for a reason.

Alistar is countered in lane by Nami and Jhin, but in teamfights, will destroy both of them, additionally, he has the capability to completely circumvent around this match up with the right composition, RNG played it perfectly.

Kennen vs Maokai, not so much. No matter how you slice it (pun intended), Kennen NEEDS to stay top lane for gold. He NEEDS to stay for EXP and he can not afford to fall behind. In a perfect world, Kennen will still have to face his weaknesses in dealing with Maokai.

In a perfect world for Alistar, he doesn't have to fight Jhin and Nami in lane at all unless it is on his own terms, which Mata did exactly that.

FortisDominusOct 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It is easy for me to say that in hindsight, I'm not going to deny that. But like I said, Alistar needs an ADC that has safe and reliable wave clear. RNG specifically picked Sivir to enable Mata to do the roams.

Sivir - Boomerang Blade into Ricochet - Wave is gone.

Something has to go insanely wrong for Uzi to be zoned away from the wave when he only takes a literal second to clear the whole wave with Q-AA-W (AA reset). If it wasn't going to be a Sivir pick, it would have been an Ezreal pick.

Not only that, bottom lane's only form of pressure/CC was Jhin's deadly flourish and Nami's bubble, two highly telegraphed skill shots easy for Uzi to spell shield and dodge. When you have an ADC that is ranked as the 11th best player in the world, you can afford to leave him in lane safely v.s. an ADC with a rookie support.

I do get your analogy, but there are other key points of the Kennen vs Maokai match up isn't just the lane.

Kennen isn't just countered in lane by Moakai because of his tendency to rush Visage for maximum sustain. He's countered by him in teamfights as well. When he uses Slicing Maelstrom into the backline, Maokai pops his ultimate to significantly reduce his damage output. Kennen is counter by Maokai in both laning and team fighting and Kennen will get punished heavily for roaming if he is not successful.

Kennen also NEEDS the farm in order to stay relevant and function in game, if he roamed as much as an Alistar did, he'd be a non factor every single game. Alistar once he hits 6, could care less about the farm and EXP. He's the second best roaming support in the game behind Bard for a reason.

Alistar is countered in lane by Nami and Jhin, but in teamfights, will destroy both of them, additionally, he has the capability to completely circumvent around this match up with the right composition, RNG played it perfectly.

Kennen vs Maokai, not so much. No matter how you slice it (pun intended), Kennen NEEDS to stay top lane for gold. He NEEDS to stay for EXP and he can not afford to fall behind. In a perfect world, Kennen will still have to face his weaknesses in dealing with Maokai.

In a perfect world for Alistar, he doesn't have to fight Jhin and Nami in lane at all unless it is on his own terms, which Mata did exactly that.

I am only refering to the laning phase because that is when counter match ups are most effective. If you are not in lane, then yea the counter pick means much less, however, I am only refering to the laning phase when the laners are actually in their lanes lol.

In a normal situation, with normal people, nami and jhin do counter ali. However, these are not normal players. Mata's alistar is godlike which is why although he picked right into a counter match up without a care in the world

SnowplosionSep 30, 20162 votes

ROX played the international wild card tho. Also TSM did screw up in that picks and bans. They kinda deserved to lose if you give Mata Alistar and Mlxg Hecarim, then pick tanks with hard peel.

ChaoticPineconeOct 1, 20161 votes

To be fair to TSM, they really werent expecting the Alistar pick. Thats the only explanation I could think of. In the recent past, Mata has heavily favored champions like Karma and Braum. And during the first draft, he picked Karma. But picking two immoble carries and a Kennan top just begs an Alistar pick, especially when the player has a World Champion skin on that champ.

Not saying that having a tank or several beefy champs is a bad thing, but heres why it isnt necessary to think, "We need a tank." Whats a tanks primary objectives in a fight that makes them useful? Its basically engage, peel, and soak up damage. But what is soaking damage? Isnt it just wasting time? Thats why Kennen top works, at least in this meta. He has plenty of engage, peel, and wastes a bunch of time with his zone control ult, his CC, and zhonyas. He fills the role of a tank without actually building tanky. This isnt always true across all metas - when teams start to get super beefy (tank top and jungle, vlad mid, braum or something bot) Kennan just cant fufil the role of a tank. But in this 3-4 squishy teamcomp meta, Kennan can serve as a pseudo tank just fine.

Now, the reason why it didnt work was because RNG always got the jump in the fights. It wouldnt have mattered if Hauntzer was on any other champion - the quickness that they deleted Doublelift in every fight made a tank line moot. When your ADC doesnt have enough time to get off one auto in a fight, even the tankiest of tanks wouldnt change that.

Also, it seems to me that TSM did what they could with RNG's scaling. Sven got a lead in the jungle, even after giving up first blood. He ended up killing the Hecarim solo a couple minutes later. Bjerg was outlaning his opponenet - up 5 cs at 5 minutes, 10 by 7 minutes, and ended the game something like 70 cs up. They also didnt expect RNG to be able to play so conservatively and make the perfect plays to climb back from an early 3k deficit. As much as TSM couldnt push their early advantages, RNG did a great job stalling and finding the perfect fights with the perfect engages.

The problem was "getting caught". They just didnt expect Alistar, and they truly didnt expect Alistar to play like he did. Who would? In that last fight that basically blew open the game, TSM had 4 members of RNG under their mid tier 2 - who expects an Alistar to dance right around the ward they placed in the raptor pit and flank from the river? (He hugged the Red Buff wall to get into position and not be seen). To me, it was less of TSM getting caught and more that that RNG had perfect teamfight execution. Heres the breakdown of what happened in that last fight:

Sivir Pops ult
Alistar W's Orianna, who flashes out of the way. At the same time, Cassio pops ghost.
Rumble ult goes down. As the first 3 hit the ground, Alistar Flash-Pulves.
As the 3 knocked up are traveling back down toward the ground, Cassio throws down a max range Miasma to prevent them from flashing away.
And as those 3 hit the ground, you see Hecarim charging in. Had he not been stunned by Kennan, he would have landed his ult almost at the exact moment they reach the ground. (As the fight played out, he ended up not using his ult).

In the fight around the dragon pit where RNG went from almost a 3k defecit to a 500 gold deficit, look at the timing of the abilities:

Rumble starts channeling TP.
At the right moment (not too early, not too late) SIvir pops ult. Alistar is at the top of the ramp to blue.
Alistar flash-pulves after running down the ramp (this was so quick that Double had flash but didnt use it). While they are in midair, RUmble casts his ult from the Tribrush to the entrance of dragon.
Alistar headbutts Jhin back toward his team. While in Midair, Hecarim E's him back to where he started.. This combination of abilities timed this perfectly keeps Jhin planted on the Rumble Ult.

The position of these players and the timing of their abilities were chained so perfectly. I highly doubt TSM would ever have been able to out-teamfight their comp, even if they drafted a more scaling comp. It looks like their only option was to bet it all on an early lead.

OdinakosOct 1, 20161 votes

It all sound like blatant excuses. TSM got outplayed in draft phase. You should at least get some knowledge about the enemy team and ban the support's best champion that can possibly carry the game. And so it happened. Getting an immobile backline that can be easily be engaged on by a rundown comp is asking for trouble. And so it happened. Those "who expected that? they could not react" moments could also be avoided. Since allistar flanks are scary, why didnt they bother fight properly for vision at blue? Why didnt they bother place the raptor ward more properly so it can spot the flank? Why there were no early flashes that could at least make it longer the enemy backline arrives?

If the enemy makes the perfect play, you dont just need a great answer. You need a perfect answer. So no excuses. TSM lost fair and square. They played great but still considerable worse than RNG.

PS: Dont mind the EUNE,from the western team i like CLG and SPY, hate G2-8 and more or less neutral for the others.

ChaoticPineconeOct 1, 20161 votes

Youre completely missing my point. Im not saying they didnt lose. I'm not saying they lost unfairly. Im saying that TSM's strategy wasnt bad.

Look at the post i was responding to - the guy was saying TSM needed a tank, didnt respect scaling, and got picked off.

OdinakosOct 1, 20161 votes

They still needed some kind of frontline. Someone that can keep back their backline or counterinitiate. After they got engaged upon, nothing could prevent the whole team being beaten upon. Nami was not enouph.

They did not respect the scaling ofc. They drafted early game advandage without a solid end game back up plan if it did not go as they expected.

And got picked off due to insufficient warding and positioning.

Those are deadly weaknesses and every great team(TSM included) will take advandages of them. In second game that they drafted a better team. While Syndra and Braum did not make a noticable difference, at least they fit the team better.

Keep in mind that ofc TSM was not bad, indeed played well. But the difference was noticable and we are pointing the mistakes that made that difference.

ChaoticPineconeOct 2, 20161 votes

You really dont "need" a frontline. Like the only real difference in "tankiness" from Day 1 and Day 2 for TSM was a support Braum (and even losing the Orianna shield mid). If Braum didnt really have a great effect on the game, did they need the tankiness he provides? Now, they didnt have anything once they got engaged upon - but give me a champion thats able to stop what RNG was able to pull off. No support or top laner could have stopped them. Even if they picked something like a Janna to stop the Alistar combo, you still had to deal with Rumble+Hecarim+Cassiopeia. Their failings werent from not having a tank. The only way to stop a better teamfighting team who drafts a better teamfighting comp is to get a significant lead - they got a lead just not a significant enough one.

Similarly to the Rox vs G2 game that just occurred - Rox went with Kennan, Nocturne, Malz, Ezreal and Soraka. This was probably one of the squishiest team comps we have seen this tournament. with Nocturne's only defensive item as a GA. But even against a team with Olaf and Gnar, they were able to pull off the win. Not because they outtanked G2, not because they had better teamfighting champions than G2, but because they executed their comp the way they needed to while G2 did not.

The real difference between Day 1 and Day 2 for TSM is that SSG is just not as good as RNG. SSG didnt get the same kind of Alistar combos that Mata could pull off. TSM dictated the engages with their protobelt Kennan, instead of being engaged on. TSM were able to get an early lead and hold onto it, since SSG couldnt rely on better teamfight execution to win.

DroogzyOct 2, 20161 votes

You're both correct in what you're saying: RNG is likely the best team fighter team at worlds, and there was very little that TSM could do against them even had they drafted a tank in their composition.

But on the flip side, draft only Nami as a means of protection and disengage was simply a poor decision, they got outdrafted by a team that was going to beat their heads in once it came to team fighting. TSM was doomed from the start even with Sven's incredible early game.

Would they have lost anyways? Probably, but not having a means of soaking damage up against the comp that was drafted by RNG was also a big factor into why they lost.

I honestly think that Hauntzer should have gone Illaoi. Illaoi's weakness is getting champions to stay in her ultimate. Alistar? Hecarim? Rumble, they all want to be on top of you. It would have been paradise for an Illaoi pick.

archerno1Sep 30, 20167 votes

At least our eu trash g2 is in CLG grp, so CLG can pass group stage

Hell WeekSep 30, 20166 votes

doublelift is a douche.

ShifuneSep 30, 20166 votes

If you're going to quote something, at least get the quote right.

EDIT: The quote was "They're not a lot of teams to cheer for because all of our teams suck." So technically, he said TSM sucks too.

Slave KnightSep 30, 20165 votes

I am totally on board for this year's NA showing. I'm happy CLG won over G2 and am very excited for C9 versus SKT (in which I hope C9 wins) but that doesn't change the fact that NA hasn't ever been a true powerhouse worlds region. Sure they make it every year but they just barely scrape by. This is why TSM is the symbol of American hope even through they stumble and trip here and there, they are the team we best identify with NA and hence why we want them to win over the other teams (or at least me and other TSM fans do).

In the TSM versus RNG game... whilst RNG played exceptionally well that game, TSM also made incredibly poor choices which led to them getting squashed. They were completely outdrafted and outplayed (though Sven was a beast and did what he could) and that made the game so painful to watch. Though they messed up, I just think it's too early to rule anyone out right now. I still believe in TSM and think this game is more or less like their first game against C9 at Toronto, full of nerves and errors. Let's hope they play better along the way.

Also, I enjoy the doublelift trashtalk. It's just banter m8s.

NdleslyLargeAnusSep 30, 20166 votes

Not everyone in NA sees TSM that way. Are they really a symbol of 'American hope' when their midlaner is Danish and their support is Canadian? Is there something about their style of play that is quintessentially American? If so, what even is that and how can that be said with any certainty? How does NA identify with them more than others?

archerno1Sep 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Not everyone in NA sees TSM that way. Are they really a symbol of 'American hope' when their midlaner is Danish and their support is Canadian? Is there something about their style of play that is quintessentially American? If so, what even is that and how can that be said with any certainty? How does NA identify with them more than others?

Define "american". America is mix of all nations and cultures. In order to have " american" only in team they would need to get all those native americans

101100111000Sep 30, 20165 votes

But what makes TSM the "American Hope" is what he's getting at. Is it nativity? Playstyle? Pass?

I mean, honestly, I don't really see how North American teams are really unique to anything. The region puts out some meh results, nothing bad overall, but definitely not 1st place material. As a whole, just don't feel competitive enough.

KotexSep 30, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Not everyone in NA sees TSM that way. Are they really a symbol of 'American hope' when their midlaner is Danish and their support is Canadian? Is there something about their style of play that is quintessentially American? If so, what even is that and how can that be said with any certainty? How does NA identify with them more than others?

Im sorry. Seriously no particular offense, but you are incredibly ignorant.

If you were young and rather uneducated, you could be excused. But you don't realize how ignorant you are.

"American" is not an ethnicity. Only the most ignorant and sheltered biggots and children think such a thing. By being a legal american citizen, you are american. Bjerg is a danish american because he is a legal american citizen. If you took a look at your family tree you would surely find that maybe youve got irish, or african, or asian, german, or even danish bloodline yourself. In which case you would need to rebuke your own american citizenship because youre actually hispanic.

devdev463Sep 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Im sorry. Seriously no particular offense, but you are incredibly ignorant.

If you were young and rather uneducated, you could be excused. But you don't realize how ignorant you are.

"American" is not an ethnicity. Only the most ignorant and sheltered biggots and children think such a thing. By being a legal american citizen, you are american. Bjerg is a danish american because he is a legal american citizen. If you took a look at your family tree you would surely find that maybe youve got irish, or african, or asian, german, or even danish bloodline yourself. In which case you would need to rebuke your own american citizenship because youre actually hispanic.

The point of the post

Your head.

SFHFWillOct 1, 20162 votes

You're an idiot. Most countries of origin are never associated with ethnicity. Hispanic as you point out is not an ethnic group, it's an island. It has two countries on it. Dominican Republic and Haiti. You'll never hear either of those people say 'I'm Hispanic because I come from the island of Hispaniola.' They'll state 'I'm Dominican' or 'I'm Haitian.' If you're trying to refer to Latin descent that's basically anything south of Mexico, which no one from those regions says 'I'm Latin' because it sounds like you're stating you're a dead language or you're being incredibly vague for no reason. Most people don't fit in boxes. However when a team's origin is from a country and the team is run by the ideals that exist in that country, stating 'It's an American team,' makes sense.

NdleslyLargeAnusOct 2, 20161 votes

The question is - what makes TSM more 'American' than other NA teams? There has yet to be a concrete answer to this.

The only person discussing ethnicity and citizenship is yourself. Are you saying that the best representatives of American Culture are people who grew up outside of America?

The only reason that Bjergsen has dual citizenship is because of league. Why did he not choose to play for an EU team? How then does Bjergsen represent America and American values specifically?

One could say that TSM represents America on account of Doublelift's quote "Every other team in NA sucks." This fits the ignorant American stereotype very well.

This quote and your attack on me both sound like Trump tweets. Which, again, the stereotype is that Americans are all similarly loud, selfish, and stupid. It's a stereotype that we are trying to overcome.

It seems that you get to a point where you accuse me of being hispanic and you tell me to rebuke my own citizenship. This was all after calling me ignorant and uneducated of course. Are you Donald Trump?

ZyniXSep 30, 20165 votes

I hope you realize Canada is in North America. Our worlds region is more then the USA.

xJLx MCHammerSep 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I hope you realize Canada is in North America. Our worlds region is more then the USA.

Canada is like a second brother

Slave KnightSep 30, 20164 votes

You know... maybe I shouldn't have put it that way. It does raise a few contentious issues doesn't it? lol.

Well, I'll try to explain as best I can as to why I view TSM as the 'American hope'. It has nothing to do with ethnicity or where players were taken from. It has everything to do with the TSM brand and identity. What is TSM? It is dare I say, the most recognisable brand in League of Legends (well at least here in OCE). TSM is a team that has ALWAYS been regarded as the underdogs but has such a strong following of fans that will march with it chanting the iconic TSM chant even in failure. It's a team that isn't renown for being particularly LCK level but has repeated pushed itself time and time again, to do the best it can do to achieve its ultimate goal of 'winning worlds'. I'm not trying to shit talk on other teams, but I just can't see the same amount of obsession for winning worlds as much as TSM. What TSM want isn't to simply prove themselves as not being 'trash' but to also demonstrate to the world that NA can compete at a world's level and beat the world's best.

Though I say all this, CLG comes very close in achieving the 'TSM Vibe' because these rival teams share the same passion for the game and the drive to want to compete. During this year's MSI, CLG felt very TSM-like when they stepped up to the stage and battled against titan teams such as SKT. It's that feeling of a little guy vs big bully that makes you want to cheer on for the little guy.

The reason I say TSM and not CLG is because TSM is usually the name that comes to mind first when I ask anyone here in OCE what defines NA LCS. CLG usually comes second, similar to the idea of Luigi and Mario where Mario is instantly recognised as the main character of his series, Luigi although brother to Mario plays a much more supportive role.

Honestly, I've never really cared for C9 so I can't really speak for them. They always seemed like such a meme. Sometimes they are relevant, sometimes they are not.

IMT can't really represent NA since it lacks the following, history or identity as a founding or instrumental NA LCS team.

Well, you can take my words for what little they mean. It was just based on what I felt TSM had that other NA teams don't have.

OdinakosOct 1, 20161 votes

A considerable amount of EU was happy that G2 lost by CLG. Source: I am from europe. We tear down each other's throats quicker than C9 can produce memes.

Slave KnightOct 1, 20161 votes

I just don't see the thrill of EU this year :( Last year was EU's year to shine, seeing Origen and Fnatic in action was a blessing for sure. This year however... they just kinda seem really boring. Just can't seem to find any character out of any of the teams in EU presently. NA definitely stepped up their game this time round and i'm riding on the hopes of a #NAWIN at the finals.

OdinakosOct 1, 20161 votes

You are correct.

G2 is hated for a reason. They can easily win the EU LCS, but seems to do bad on international stage. Out of their comfort zone? No preparation? Cant adapt? It is quite frustrating and the fact that are embrassing it makes it even worse. You are our champion, get your shit together. They are the exact opposite of CLG. Who even in a bad day, they still have a plan and go throught it. They play as a team and have great macro. I never understood why people didnt want them at worlds. And i love this year's CLG for those reasons.

H2K are just fine. Still prone to mistakes but can dominate. Not so hyped.

Splyce are the most interesting. A complete rookie team in the international stage? Sign me up. I dont mind that they are stomped or not, its nice to see how those guys perform next to the best of best.

I expect at most H2K and G2 to get out of groups, but not as interesting to watch as other teams.

On the other hand NA. I spoke for CLG already. TSM, althought prone to mistakes, seem quite dominating. If not for those obnoxious fans thought. C9 seem also strong thought their group is hard. Props to IMT that could provide explosive games if they managed to make it.

I expect great performance from the NA team. CLG and TSM are one of the most interesting teams to watch. NA can secure a semi spot.

What can EU hope for the future? First their most iconic team. I really wish FNC have a decent comeback at S7. They had the most competitive team west has provided in S5. Deilor was a huge loss and the team needs restracture. Yellowstar is at retirement point thought that goes without giving him huge props for his carreer. They have the experience and the backbone, they can surely do it. G2 must start taking international stage seriously. MSI was unacceptable. They think they are the cool Joker from Batman: The dark knight but they have became lame bane from Batman and Robin. Splyce only can become better. Yamato is a phenomenal coach and those guys need experience to step their game up. Another season may do the trick. Overall EU with some great efford can reclaim the title of 2nd best region. And not be relegated to last.

Slave KnightOct 2, 20161 votes

I'm actually rooting for splyce too ;) after TSM and CLG of course (after watching C9 vs Flash Wolves, I don't think I can sit through another world's level clown fiesta).

falldown010Sep 30, 20164 votes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtleDD3VIAAvfXI.jpg

KotexSep 30, 20163 votes

Not sure why everyone is being so hard on TSM. It seems like its more of a popular trend and meme to just hate them JUST because its a thing that everyone does fior its own sake.

TSM is the a good team and the best NA team right now. The fact is that most (asian) teams from other regions are simply better than them. TSM isn't bad. They just aren't the best team in the entire world and thats what worlds is all about. Finding the best team in the entire world. TSM is simply not a national powerhouse, but theyre a good team of good players.

LankPantsSep 30, 201612 votes

Not sure why everyone is being so hard on TSM.

Basically because their fans are utterly insufferable. It's like Manchester United in the EPL. Everyone loves it when they lose a game they really should have won because it's great to see their fans shut the hell up for once in their life.

KotexSep 30, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Basically because their fans are utterly insufferable. It's like Manchester United in the EPL. Everyone loves it when they lose a game they really should have won because it's great to see their fans shut the hell up for once in their life.

but the irony is that TSM haters are equally insufferable. When TSM loses they all have to be as loud and happy about it as possible. Ive never personally met a hardcore TSM fan in all my years of playing. Ive only met people that casually say "oh yea TSM is my fav team" but on the other hand TSM haters just HAVE to seek acknowledgement for their dislike of TSM for the most shallow of reasons.

Im not a TSM fan either before you say anything of the sort but like i said. TSM haters are as equally annoying as the fans they are supposedly trying to spite.