Leveling and Rewards - Early Impressions and Adjustments

RiotRiot Cactopus·Nov 11, 2017·1 votes·590,426 views

##UPDATE 12/14 - We've updated some of the charts below to more accurately reflect the numbers presented. In particular, we had a mistake in the chart showing the 1–30 leveling rewards, and that has been fixed.

Hey guys! Over the last few days, we've gotten tons of questions and good feedback about the new leveling and rewards systems.

TL;DR for this post:

In response to your feedback, we're converting some of the XP in the FWotD bonus into Blue Essence.
We'll talk about how 1–30 leveling works now and how we've made leveling easier for everyone.
We'll examine the 30-and-Beyond leveling curve and make the leveling earn rate higher in the long term so it won't feel like you're being punished for reaching a high level.

We also already made one change: Earlier this week we raised the minimum value on loot boxes. The lowest possible drop used to be worth 720 BE, but now it's 810 BE.

Let's jump into the specifics.

#FIRST WIN OF THE DAY

First, let's talk about tweaks to the First Win of the Day (FWotD) bonus. We've seen more than a few of you asking for some way to gain blue essence while you’re in-between levels so you can buy champions that would otherwise be just out of your reach.

Our plan here is to convert some of the XP from the First Win of the Day boost into straight up blue essence. At system launch, FWotD granted 575 XP. When we ship this change (aiming for sometime during patch 7.23) it'll instead grant 50 BE and 400 XP.

#1-30 LEVELING SPEED

Now let's take a look at how we're making 1–30 leveling faster for just about everyone. We've seen some concerns about the leveling curve for new players and their experience when leveling from 1–30.** It's true that it takes more XP to climb between certain levels in the new system, but even with that change, leveling is still faster.** To understand how it works, let's look at it in detail.

In the old leveling system, an average game gave 115 XP. The chart below shows the total amount of games it took to get to Level 30:

https://i.imgur.com/qZ3GZjS.png[/img]

It took an average of 178 games to reach Level 30 (this of course varies based on game length and performance).

In the new leveling system, an average game gives 192 XP. In addition, First Win of the Day starts giving XP at level 15. This is where it gets a bit tricky to compare. If you get more FWotD , then it will take fewer total games. Our estimates say that the typical player gets FWotD once for every four games they play, but let’s also look at what happens when you only get FWotD every six games and every eight games as well.

https://i.imgur.com/1prRFHu.png[/img] _Data above assumes FWotD gives out 400 XP. _

If you're a typical player who gets FWotD every four games, it'll take 152 games to reach level 30, which is much faster. If you get FWotD every six games, it'll take 166 games. If you're a rare, super-hardcore player who gets a FWotD once every eight games, it'll take you 174 games to level up from 1–30.

So. This means that leveling from 1–30 is faster in the new system for just about everyone. The only way you'd be going slower is if you’re playing more than nine games before getting FWotD on average. Even then, we're talking about a difference of just a couple of games.

#1–30 REWARDS

Okay, so what about rewards? In the old system, you earned between 13,000 IP and 18,000 IP when leveling from 1–30 depending on how often you got FWotD.

So let's compare that to the rewards you get from the new system. Unlike all of the boxes after the level 30, the boxes you get in the new system when leveling from 1–30 are NOT random. Instead, every time you level up we give you either a specific champion or a set of champion shards worth a predetermined amount of blue essence (assuming you disenchant the shards).

Here is the blue essence value of everything you get from 1-30:

https://i.imgur.com/SLoCB0f.png[/img]

So this means you'll get an Icon, a Ward, and around 26,598 worth of blue essence and champs when leveling from 1–30 in the new system. Keep in mind that this is all assuming you're disenchanting every champ shard you got. If you upgrade them, the value increases even more.

That 26,598 blue essence total also isn't counting the new 50 BE per FWotD that you'll soon be getting, so the real total is even higher. Then consider that runes are now also free—it's just easier for new players to unlock champs in the new leveling system.

So, to review how the new leveling system impacts level 1–30 players: The vast majority of you are completing the journey faster (some MUCH faster), and all players end up with more rewards, no matter how you split it.

Alright, so that's 1–30 leveling. Time to talk about leveling beyond 30.

#THE 30-AND-BEYOND LEVELING CURVE

Okay, so now let's talk about what happens once you get very high-leveled in the new system. This part gets a little math heavy, but stick with us.

In the new leveling system, leveling gets harder the higher you climb. Beginning at level 30, the difficulty curve starts doing a sort of "staircase" effect. It gets harder as you approach milestone levels (every 25 levels), and then it goes back to being easier until you get closer to the next milestone level. In the current version of the leveling system that we shipped with preseason, the length of the journey between each milestone also gets harder on the whole until you reach level 150. From that point on, the staircases stop getting higher.

Because we got some early feedback that players don't want to feel punished for being high-leveled, we're going to go ahead and tweak the leveling curve to make high-level grinding easier. In the chart below you can see the leveling curve as it exists today (represented by the blue line) as well as what it'll look like after we change the system (represented by the orange line)—this change should ship during patch 7.23.

https://i.imgur.com/gMx52R0.png[/img]

With the changes we're making, leveling will now stop getting harder overall once you reach level 50. As before, leveling will still get more and more difficult before speeding up again after you pass each leveling milestone. After we ship the change the leveling as a whole stops slowing down at level 50 instead of at 150.

#COMPARING THE REWARDS SYSTEMS

Okay, but here's the question that's actually on everyone's minds: Do you get more or less overall BE from leveling compared to the IP you got from playing games in the old system? The answer is that on average, you will get more, no matter what level you are. And the only way you'll ever get even slightly less from the new system is if you're playing a truly crazy amount of League every day. Time to back up that claim with data.

Note that all of the following examples are accurate after we make the aforementioned changes to FWotD and the post-30 leveling speed.

In the chart below, we're comparing the total currency you will earn upon reaching specific levels in the new system to the IP you would have earned over the same number of games in the old system. The new system is represented by the orange bars. The old, IP-based system is represented by the blue bars.

https://i.imgur.com/3kfeyRw.png[/img]

Let's take a moment to explain what we're looking at in this chart. It makes a difference how many FWotD bonuses you get when playing. The chart above assumes that you get a FWotD bonus every four games. This is pretty much the typical player.

But plenty of you play more than four games in any given day. In that case your chart might look more like this:

https://i.imgur.com/zoupFFk.png[/img]

Here's a player that plays six games for every FWotD that they earn. This person plays League more than the typical player. Even at the highest level, this player will still earn more BE on average than they would've gotten in IP in the old system.

Just so we're covering all our bases, let's look at an exceptional example: a player that plays eight games on average for every FWotD that they earn. This person puts in serious work on League, regularly putting in eight games in a row. How do they fare in the new system compared to the old one?

https://i.imgur.com/tKssuz4.png[/img]

Even in this case, it's pretty close. How close? It's a total of just 2,300 BE less after 2,200 games. This disparity in earn rates between those who play many games per day and those who play slightly fewer is not new to League—we've always thought the FWotD bonus was worth including because it incentivizes players to regularly log in and jump into games. Players like this are still leveling faster than anyone else in the new system, and they'll get the new unique leveling rewards before anyone else (and the swag factor that comes with them).

It comes down to this: For the vast majority of players, this system will give out more currency on average than you would've gotten in the old IP-based world.

#CONCLUSION

Holy hell, that was a lot of charts, guys. This might sound weird, but we knew a system change this big wasn't going to be perfect out the gate. Preseason is a time for big changes, and we knew we'd need your feedback to get things right for everyone. So all we can ask for now is for you to keep it coming. We genuinely appreciate it.

We've heard a few other concerns about the new leveling and rewards systems, (especially around Mastery 6 & 7 prices and RNG in the loot system) but the changes announced above are the only ones we're ready to commit to today. For now, we're going to focus on tweaking just a few things at a time with the system so we can see the effects clearly.

Please keep playing and letting us know how the new system feels—we're listening. Hit us with any questions you have in the comments below!

761 Comments

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 2017253 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIlNIVXpIns

YouFailToAmuseM3Nov 11, 20175 votes

[deleted]

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201725 votes

Hi there,

To answer your first question, we'll probably do bonus XP events. Remember, XP is what gets you both levels and BE now (and BE is just IP turnt blue).

That's why we replaced the old IP boosts with just XP boosts (priced the same way as IP boosts). Since leveling is predictable, each unit of XP has a rough BE value that you can figure out pretty easily. So anything that we used to give IP for we can give XP for instead to ultimately juice your BE numbers.

That's the rationale right now, at least.

I'm having trouble understanding the second part of your post. It's definitely not true that you were ever able to get a 6.3k IP champion after 4–5 wins. And when you say "I want to be able to choose which champion I want to buy," I'm not sure I understand that either. In the new system you can disenchant any shard and buy the exact champion you want from the store (and you earn the BE for those champions at the same or better rate as you would have in the old system).

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding any of what you wrote!

ModDaenrysTargaryenNov 11, 201710 votes

you allow that name?

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201721 votes

EDIT: Yeah actually you know what, the name is too inappropriate to stay on the board.

I went ahead and deleted his post and gave him a board ban advising him to change the name. Sorry for not doing it sooner. I actually don't have much experience moderating on the boards so I didn't know what my possible actions were.

~~honestly it's a bit much lol~~

~~i would probs report that in game but the dude had a legit question so I figured I might as well help him~~

GalaciusNov 11, 201713 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=hAaYMrEs,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-11T05:21:56.540+0000)

honestly it's a bit much lol

i would probs report that in game but the dude had a legit question so I figured I might as well help him

Name forwarded.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201714 votes

Thank you mods! I'm glad y'all knew what to do. I'll know going forward as well.

Crusina LuachraNov 11, 201723 votes

Yeah my little brother is autistic.

I have to deal all the time with people going "REEE" thinking it's funny and every other insult being a reference to autism.

I have never actually seen anyone enforce it before though, so color me surprised/happy.

Big Thunderc0ckNov 11, 201724 votes

If being called an autist because you know someone who is gets to you then the internet might not be for you.

Crusina LuachraNov 11, 201791 votes

Shit statements like that, are just excuses for people to be assholes in the first place.

The only reason "the internet" is like that in the first place, is because of people like you who go "OH WELL" or actively support it because you know you ARE toxic and you want an excuse to be the jerk you've always been.

You have NO idea of the crap I've seen. I've been doxxed, gotten death threats, been spammed with gore porn, had accounts made specifically to target and harass me, 8chan opened a thread to specifically target my sister. I've seen thousands of harassing tweets, messages, that range from simple insults to threats to murder someone's entire family. That's all just the tip of the iceberg.

And you know why that's all happened to me and why that's all happened to others?

Because we have the audacity, to want people to owe up to the shit they say and because we have the audacity to not accept "well it's the internet" as an excuse to not speak up or say something.

I still remember, fresh in my mind. Having to file a police report because we stumbled across something not only disgusting (I felt like throwing up) but 100% illegal.

And yet here I am. Still advocating for the things I believe in. Still calling out things I believe to be bad.

And I will continue to do so, despite all the crap I see and get. If that makes me "sensitive"...oh well. I don't do this to receive praise, I do this because I think it's the right thing to do.

So calling out stuff like this? Yes I will do that. Praising people who take action? Yes I will do that as well. Don't like it? There's a downvote button right next to my post.

IsraeliNov 11, 201767 votes

why do you need to pay for champions mastery levels?

InfernapeNov 11, 201789 votes

Riot don't pay you enough Cactopus.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 2017109 votes

this is a quality post

PirateRobNov 13, 201714 votes

I can imagine you walking into the office now saying "Here's some recent important player feedback I've found" and then just handing all your bosses a screenshot of this post.

NefasNov 11, 201758 votes

Your charts comparing IP and BE gains don’t really get to the heart of the problem. Gaining BE in chunks over long periods of time feels really crappy compared to getting regular, smaller amounts of IP after every game. And getting a little bit more currency on average in the long run doesn’t make up for that.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201725 votes

A big misconception we've been seeing out there is that the new system is giving less BE overall compared to the old one. So we wanted to really nip that in the bud by revealing the inner workings of the system.

Now, onto your criticism. I think it's a valid one, and I've seen others who agree with you. But, here's our counterargument: If we wanted to stick with the steady drip-feed style of system we wouldn't have made the leveling system at all.

The idea around the bigger, more spaced out drops style of reward system is that it'll feel more satisfying in the long run (and we're really obsessed with making the game feel like it matters on a timeline that runs many many years into the future).

Of course, we could end up becoming more flexible on this stuff depending on how it plays out. But we just shipped this new system this week and a lot of the negative reaction has been fueled by misconceptions. So we gotta let people spend some time with the new system before we really know how it's working.

NefasNov 11, 201758 votes

Here’s my counter argument: I didn’t want or ask for this leveling system in the first place. You solved a “problem” that didn’t exist for me. The only leveling system that matters at all is Ranked.

These changes are fundamentally flawed in the exact same way DynamicQ was. Riot doesn’t get to determine what players value or how they value it. You don’t get to determine whether premades do or do not detract from Ranked. You don’t get to determine whether I like to get rewards built in increments or have to wait for long periods of time to get a chunk. You don’t get to determine whether I will or will not valuing leveling - the only progress bar that matters for me with IP is unlocking champions and leveling just makes that more complicated. Now I have multiple more hoops to jump through whereas before play games, get IP from each game, and buy champions. Stop trying to tell me what I want and how I want it.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201732 votes

I wouldn't presume to tell you what you want! It's very possible that this system is less satisfying for you. I hope that's not the case.

That being said, posts like yours tell us how you feel about it, but they don't tell us how the broader community feels. That's why I made that point about how lots of the early reactions have been based in misconceptions. We need to wait until everyone gets real time in the system and knows how it really works before we can really understand what parts of it are working and what parts aren't.

On a personal note, I'm grateful for your feedback.

Lord MilutinNov 11, 201738 votes

I completely agree with Nefas. Leveling feels so underwhelming to me and getting rewards in chunks instead of at a steady pace really ruined my experience in the league. The worst thing you could do is uncap the leveling cap and you did it.

The only thing I like about your changes are runes, but even that I don't like 100% because we can't edit or remove preset rune pages.

Karn BishopNov 11, 201748 votes

How about a disenchant button that dusts only the shards of champions i already own with one click, it takes forever to disenchant them otherwise.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201759 votes

Interesting. Yeah disenchanting should probably be made to feel as painless as possible. I'll pass along this feedback to the team.

ProfDrDeathNov 11, 201720 votes

Maybe have it be more like the delete button on certain e-mail providers: Check runes you want to disenchant, hit big button to disenchant everything checked all at once.

zorlox77Nov 11, 201734 votes

Do you have any thoughts on updating the tutorial at some point? Most people seem to have forgotten it exists.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201744 votes

We need to. It could be so much better.

mrgiraffeweevilNov 11, 201735 votes

NO. RIOT HAS KILLED TOO MANY MEMES. YOU GAVE BACK GRAVES CIGAR, YOU GAVE CASS AND VIKTOR SKINS IN THE SAME YEAR. YOU WILL NOT TAKE MY item 3075 Ashe FROM ME. but for real, the tutorial does need an update

2FAXNov 11, 201733 votes

So the system is better for the "average player" who plays ~4-6 games per day at every day which is ~28-42 games per week. At the same time the new system is worse for people who play "truly crazy amounts" of games like 0 from monday to friday and ~16-25 from saturday - sunday, which results in ~16-25 games per week. Did I catch that right?

MordepoolNov 11, 201732 votes

+1 for graphs

ShinkoMinoriNov 11, 201724 votes

Don't you feel like this is alike Dynamic Queue and how Riot kept defending it until the whole community imploded with challengers getting matched with bronze 5 and finally bringing back solo Q back after the many many complaints that went for over half a year?

In this case its with Blue Essence/IP/The currency thats free. So it will have way more impact and already the community is melting on it...

My point is if you guys are going to listen to the community this time instead of pushing something that nobody wants just for the sake of copying other business models or just out of sheer idealism that this is the way to go? Why break something that was working?

You can try to tweak as much as u want if its something we don't want we just won't take it.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201742 votes

Well. We launched this system earlier this week, so it's probably a little early to compare it to Dynamic Queue, which was a slow motion shitshow of a disaster that lasted half a season.

I hope the post this thread is based on proves that we're already listening to the community! That's why I'm here talking to you guys.

NotLightningNov 11, 201718 votes

I've honestly never heard someone call the Dynamic Queue launch a shitshow, especially a Riot employee, but that's honestly great.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201747 votes

Oh I think lots of people called it a shitshow.

I would also personally call it an "unmitigated fuckup carnival" and an "emotional chernobyl."

But hey, that's just me.

EYECREDNov 11, 201721 votes

I just opened a garbage level up thing...And I just got double garen out of it, I guess riot is trolling me.

Anyways, RIOT, answer already.Why didn't you tell us you are changing the orange essence value too?!!?!?!Now we ain't getting shit from skin shards, like it even was a reason to modify this.....

QuantumLightNov 11, 201717 votes

So does that mean everyone above level 4 is getting brand, garen, and ashe retroactively?

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201718 votes

Hmm. TBH that's not the plan right now. The logic on that is the same reason we aren't giving everyone who's level 30 already the BE that new players will get when they climb those levels. It's basically that you actually already got rewarded in the form of IP for climbing those early levels. And these players are just getting champs instead of BE. So they're not really getting anything you didn't—they're just getting a different thing instead of what you got.

We talked about this in the preseason FAQ. I know everybody likes free stuff but I think it's fair to say that giving new players specific champs for leveling isn't hurting people who got IP for climbing those same levels.

redfeenixNov 11, 20174 votes

TBH that's not the plan right now.

Would giving lvl 30 players 3 basic champions be that difficult for you guys? Its like you guys are actively punishing veterans by denying them retroactive awards.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201711 votes

Nah, it's fair. The new players get those 450BE champs instead of shards worth roughly the same amount. It's not really an advantage at all. We're just putting the noob accounts on rails by giving them easier-to-learn champions.

redfeenixNov 11, 20176 votes

I understand what you're saying and I agree 100% with this. You guys should take further steps to improve the new player experience such as introducing guilds or expanding clubs.

However what I'm saying is, in the rare instance that a veteran player hasnt unlocked one of these 3 champions... would it not be better to just simply gift them this reward?

Right now the veterans are feeling a little left out, and offering these 3 measly champs might help change opinions about the new system.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201721 votes

in the rare instance that a veteran player hasnt unlocked one of these 3 champions... would it not be better to just simply gift them this reward?

not necessarily. wouldn't that then be unfair to vets who just happened to spend their money on those champs instead of others? Why should they have to use their IP on those champs when others get them for free just because they chose to buy other champs?

pretty quickly we'd fall down a rabbit hole haha

ianonaiNov 11, 201718 votes

But apparently players who are levelling up from 1-30 are also getting a free random icon and a free random ward skin. I don't remember getting anything that's worth RP back when I was levelling from 1-30. Would you say that we should be compensated for that too? It feels sucky that everyone who only recently reached level 30 missed out on these rewards for playing a little bit earlier than other players.

NotLightningNov 11, 20176 votes

To combat this, they will tell you that you can purchase both of these for BE now. Still crap though. They really dug themselves in a hole with this one. It just seems like they care about getting more players on the game to make more money and that's it. These new players couldn't care less about an icon or ward skin compared to the vets. Really sad.

Korean RatNov 11, 201725 votes

Actually, its really nice for new players. Getting someone new into the game before was hell. I was just helping a friend get into the game and versed 2 people with keystones. Both my account and theirs were level 7 or something. It was hell and you got NOTHING that hooked you into the game. The icon and ward skin might seem dumb but for a new player its a nice little nod to help you get into knowing what both of those are.

ExHentaiNov 11, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=hAaYMrEs,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-11T02:58:09.454+0000)

Preseason is a time for big changes, and we knew we'd need your feedback to get things right for everyone. So all we can ask for now is for you to keep it coming. We genuinely appreciate it.

Can something along the lines of this quote be pinned to the top of the boards? It hurts my brain reading posts that read similar to "stop criticizing, stop complaining, stop providing feedback. Riot is omnipotent and their game is the work of the divine".

pumamewNov 11, 201714 votes

I was lvl 18 before preseason start and it feels like I missed the important part on the way to get champions for early levels easier. I did some math and I had 8200 IP gained from 1-18. But in the new system it would be 10082 BE and Ashe and Garen and Brand . Ashe+Garen+Brand(450+450+4800) being 5700 BE, thats a total of 15782 IP so I missed roughly half of IP and it sucks, cause the leveling from 18 to 30 is much harder then from 1-18 and from 18 to 30 I will get 10230 BE which is 5500 less then from 1-18 which took less time. So for my leveling experience from 18-30 which belongs to the "getting champions to play" state of the new leveling System. In the old system, I can read in your chart, I would need on average 111 more games to get from 18 to 30. 111 games multiplied by average "old-system" IP gain from 67 IP is 7437 + 1. win of the day every 6 games which would be 18 times 150 which is 2700 IP . So i add 7437 with 2700 and got 10100 IP which is very close to the new System. And the old system would be better if I dont calculated with 1. Win of the day IP every 6 but every 4 games. So even if its very rewarding on the early levels from 1-18 which takes about 55 games. About the double of time (111 games) it could be even worse then the old system. And thats the problem I see with the new system which needs to be fixed. And especially in my case its very unfortunately. Please give me the "now" BE I lost in the early levels.

AristotelarasNov 11, 201711 votes

This is really nice but please consider making first win of the day reset every 24 hours instead of when you take your first win

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 201710 votes

I've been seeing this meme so much more often recently and I don't know why it's getting popular now since FWotD has been on a 22hr schedule for YEARS at this point. Really curious to understand it better.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 11, 20175 votes

now we see how long before it resets right in the mission tab

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 20179 votes

OHHHHHHHHHH DAMN. You're right.

IHOPTDKNov 11, 20174 votes

I feel like you're not remotely taking into consideration how much xp you get when losing or God forbid, if you go on a losing streak.

RiotRiot CactopusNov 11, 20175 votes

No, that's accounted for. Ultimately the amount of progress toward rewards that you get per game when losing in this system is the same as it was in the old system.

PimpinaboxNov 11, 201719 votes

What about for ARAM only players? I played ARAM exclusively from the time it was introduced to sometime late s5. Many of my friends only play ARAM still and they're all getting hit harder than SR players. Don't you think you should bump ARAM xp post 30. I say post 30 because I know giving it a low lvl bump would cause it to become the go to botter xp queue, speaking of which, just became a much more lucrative thing for those guys.