Buying Runes Between Now and Preseason

RiotRiot Cactopus·Jul 20, 2017·1 votes·230,289 views

Hey friends,

In May we announced that new Runes will be free when they launch this preseason. We've since seen tons of questions about how we'll transition to the new system, as well as what players should do about purchasing runes now. We're still working on the first question, but let's talk about the second.

So here's our plan: when preseason arrives we'll refund all the IP you've spent on runes since May 30th, 2017 (the date we published the Riot Pls video linked above). This deal is effective now, so if you've got the IP for some runes you want, go ahead and grab 'em! We'll refund you later. We were originally going to roll these changes out with our bigger announcement in September, but we wanted to put this out there now since many of you have been asking about rune prices.

At some point before the transition to the new runes system we'll also drastically reduce the prices of all runes. We won't refund rune purchases made after that point.

But what about rune pages, you ask? The plan is for your rune pages to carry over into the new runes system, so prices on rune pages aren't being changed and they won't be refunded. The difference is you'll be able to edit them in champ select.

Let us know if you've got any questions and we'll be happy to answer in the comments.

1,063 Comments

UOL LagsAlotJul 20, 2017115 votes

So, you said that you want to keep multiple rune pages. But what's the point of multiple rune pages if you can edit them in champ select? This way (as I do with masteries atm) I only need one page which I change in every champ select.

What does the extra rune pages offer me?

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201760 votes

We've been thinking about this a bunch. It basically depends on your playstyle, I guess. Like I really get stressed editing masteries in champ select now, so I'll probably have 20 Rune pages for the ~10 champs I play so I don't have to spend a single extra second on building one from scratch every time. That way I can just change like a few runes on one of my preset pages and then have time to grab a beer or whatever. So this plan works really well for me, but you might not use it.

I guess the question then is, is that fair enough for you? Like you're still getting all the other improvements to the rune system (including free runes, editing them in champ select). So does the change overall still feel fair for you even if you don't use the extra rune pages? I'm genuinely asking.

Roneld3444Jul 20, 2017146 votes

it doesn't really feel worth it or fair, honestly. the only reason i have 20 rune pages is because you couldn't change them in champ select, if you could, i would have never bought any extras, and just changed them on the fly like i do with masteries. no point in having them now.

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201733 votes

Edit: I think Ghostcrawler actually has a much better answer to this than what I originally posted: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/RlNQkO39-buying-runes-between-now-and-preseason?comment=0043

~~What you're saying makes sense. Like these pages feel like they're worth less, even though the change we're making to them is basically a straight improvement (before you couldn't edit them, and now you can). ~~

It's something we're arguing about internally at Riot. Making runes free makes other things feel like they're worth less. So how much should we do to make people who previously bought those other things (like rune pages) feel good? Personally I'm hoping that players will feel that rune pages are still worth it, even if they're now easier to tweak. But we're interested in the feedback.

ZahlfastJul 20, 2017142 votes

Your analysis is incorrect. A single rune page has been improved drastically, such that a single one has more value than 20 of the old runes pages (since it is infinitely customizable in champ select). This means the marginal value of each additional page, which is what people were actually buying with their IP/RP, has plummeted. It is now merely a convenience instead of required for optimal gameplay.

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201753 votes

Damn, ECON 101 just came rushing back real fast.

This is fair feedback, and you make a solid point about the marginal value. Our argument for doing things this way is basically an economic one. The question is while we're making one huge part of League's economy (runes) free, will players understand if we keep other non-essential systems (pages) paid? If the overall change is a net positive, does it feel like a fair deal?

Really appreciate you guys for bringing strong arguments in here by the way.

GamblerOfLivesJul 20, 201756 votes

its not the same deal for everybody..some have alot of runes, some don't. Even if you make runes free, this will impact only the new players..not the old players (from an economic point of view).

would i pay for this convenience?? sure..is it fair in regards to us, who already have alot of rune pages? ofc not.

Is it fair that your argument is that you made runes free for us (both old and new players) , even if the old players don't actually benefit at all from this??

WE basicly get less value from rune pages, and you are saying that you made runes free , so thats fair in your eyes:)..but, not for everybody

Tylanader17Jul 20, 2017105 votes

Say two people do some work for me. We had a deal that for every hour they worked I would pay them $10. One person works for 20 hours and the other for 2. They each receive their respective amounts of money and go on their way. Then a couple years later, I decide I want to reward them even more for their work. I give the one who did 20 hours of work $50, the second guy $230, and then a random third guy $250. Now they all have the $250 after having put in drastically different amounts of work. It is a net positive for everyone, but it is NOT fair.

This is analogous to a situation in which one player purchased a bunch of rune pages, one purchased a few, and one purchased none. They put in different amounts of IP grinding, and got different values out of that for a while, but now they will all have the same value in terms of rune pages (more rune pages are technically more convenient, but don't have any actual impact on your ability to be competitive). So anyways, I'm sure you could get away with it, but don't try to spin it as a fair deal. It is not.

Roneld3444Jul 20, 201759 votes

i can assure you right now that most players are not going to find rune page purchases worth it in the future after this change. the value of a single editable page is infinite, and multiple pages really don't serve even close to as much of a purpose as they once did.

EDIT: who is the market for multiple rune pages going to be after this update? players who don't have a full champion roster are obviously going to continue to prioritize obtaining them over rune pages, which leaves players that have everything else they can unlock with IP as the primary consumer, and they're a minority group here. even then, they may not even buy the pages, because they already have a freely interchangeable one already.

VinoJul 20, 2017132 votes

I think you should just refund all bought rune pages (IP/RP) and let people decide if they feel the need to buy them again or if they'd rather have something else.

PailerJul 20, 201713 votes

I feel like i maybe would not have spent rp on rune pages if i knew that i could basicly use one for everything. Because every extra rune page is just luxury in the new Rune system and not needed.

ZahlfastJul 20, 201748 votes

No, it absolutely does not feel fair. The only reason I spent 6,300 IP per page was because it was essentially required to enter a game not at a competitive disadvantage for a role and / or match-up.

If I could, I would sell down to the basic 2 pages you start with and simply edit every game. Instead I will now have extra worthless pages that could have been 3 or 4 champions I don't own.

lvngdeadJul 20, 201744 votes

Slightly different answer, but it doesn't feel fair that Riot will not be refunding people for buying Rune Pages.

As someone who grinded like crazy for 20 rune pages, spent that IP on pages instead of champions, then told Runes would get merged with masteries and that they would now be editable in champion select, extra rune pages now feel like waste.

WinznattsJul 20, 201725 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=RlNQkO39,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-07-20T18:25:12.866+0000)

We've been thinking about this a bunch. It basically depends on your playstyle, I guess. Like I really get stressed editing masteries in champ select now, so I'll probably have 20 Rune pages for the ~10 champs I play so I don't have to spend a single extra second on building one from scratch every time. That way I can just change like a few runes on one of my preset pages and then have time to grab a beer or whatever. So this plan works really well for me, but you might not use it.

I guess the question then is, is that fair enough for you? Like you're still getting all the other improvements to the rune system (including free runes, editing them in champ select). So does the change overall still feel fair for you even if you don't use the extra rune pages? I'm genuinely asking.

I posted about this in the reddit thread for the Runes Reforged announcement. The biggest problem, for me, is that I spent RP on rune pages. If that hadn't been an option I would have no qualms about the current plan for pages. However, I would never in a million years spend money on these 'new' Rune Pages. Because they're not really Rune Pages as they exist now, they're Mastery Pages. There is a reason that Mastery Pages are free, being editable in Champ Select makes putting them behind a paywall purely a bad user experience since all it does is limit convenience. With non editable Rune Pages, that's not the case. You go into a game and have to select from predetermined (by you) load outs whichever page is best for the current game. More options there isn't just paying for convenience, it's paying for potential competitive advantage. Changing the ecosystem from static to editable in champ select feels like a bait and switch. So while I agree that a static page doesn't make sense for Runes Reforged, it also doesn't feel good to say, "I spent money on a static system to increase my options. Now that the system is dynamic I have no use for those options and my money evaporated." So if we could get the option to refund our RP purchased rune pages at the very least it would feel much less bad.

ßutteredJul 20, 201773 votes

This definitely does not feel fair to me. I spent $20 and a ton of IP on rune pages and now its only marginally useful. Feels really bad tbh.

DrCyanideJul 20, 201756 votes

So does the change overall still feel fair for you even if you don't use the extra rune pages?

It feels like I spent a lot of RP on toilet paper, but unlike toilet paper I know I won't be using it at a later date.

If I was starting fresh with the New Runes, I would probably be happy to buy an extra Rune Page or two with IP to have some good-to-go pages for champions I play a lot of. However, I would not even consider buying my way to the 16 rune pages I have now, certainly not with RP! That RP would have gone towards just about anything else. I'd rather have spent that RP on an ugly skin for a champion I don't play, since that would at least be somewhat beneficial to me in ARAM!

I personally don't care about the IP loss for the Runes, I'm indifferent to that, but the RP loss for Rune Pages? That one hurts.

r xyJul 20, 201716 votes

Aside from the fact, that i dont like the fact that none of my runepages will get refunded, this is going to cause a really backwards distribution of runepages: the people that are very familiar with league and thus probably dont need a lot of pages will have a lot of them, while new players, that tend to netdeck pages and as such need a lot of them will have very few. I really dont like that.

ReconsJul 20, 201794 votes

So all the IP I spent buying runes 2-3 years ago, won't be refunded? Is there anything to compensate older accounts?

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201752 votes

There's a bigger plan in the works for rewarding folks who've invested IP in runes over the years. It'll be more than what we're talking about here—we just wanted to go ahead and let you know now that you can spend on runes and expect to get refunded.

gimme your bestJul 20, 201711 votes

New Icon? :D

ForFoxSakesJul 20, 201793 votes

I absolutely DONT want icons

All that time spent grinding IP when it could be used for champs just to get a tiny cosmetic thing I probably wont ever use isnt a good trade

Mikehawk PTJul 20, 201730 votes

But is not only about ip's, some people used Rp's for extra pages

KawaiiShroomJul 20, 201713 votes

Dude read what he wrote. The rune pages are still useful after the rework.

Italian StalinJul 20, 201740 votes

They are significantly less necessary with rune pages being editable in champ select though, They'll be worth about as much as mastery pages are now.

RiotGhostcrawlerJul 20, 201794 votes

Warning: frank discussion incoming.

One of the things we haven't talked about a lot with you guys, but which should come as no surprise, is that Riot does make revenue on runes, which we ultimately invest back into League to make the game better.

This is indirect revenue, because it comes from players purchasing champions with RP since they don't have available IP to get those champions, since some of that IP goes towards runes. Freeing up rune IP (in the absence of any other changes) would let players buy a bunch of champions and spend less RP overall.

Now we are making some other changes to the system, but overall, Riot is losing money on this deal. Potentially a lot of money. This was something we had to talk about a lot internally, but everyone was ultimately behind the decision, all the way to Tryndamere and Ryze. I don't want to make too big of a deal out of this, but if we seem cautious with some of our decisions here, this is part of the reason why. (Another big one obviously is that we are taking a gamble by overhauling such a core part of the game for something that we believe will be better.)

We are making the new runes free because we believe 1) That it's the right thing to do for League and for League players, and 2) Our business model has always been to make a fun game that players want to keep coming back to year after year. Runes Reforged is a long-term bet on League of Legends (and Riot for that matter).

If we thought that Rune Pages made no sense with the new design and risked feeling like a cash grab, we would absolutely just kill them as a feature. But we have found they are useful with Runes Reforged, just less mandatory than they were before. Definitely open to discussion on this topic however.

CabruhJul 20, 201748 votes

Honestly I worked REALLY hard to just to get 1 new page of runes (that´s not even saying much, other more dedicated players have gotten way more). With that IP, I could get like, 3 6300 IP champs. Are you saying that its off the table for those of us who bought runes before to get any IP refund at all since Riot is already losing money? I´d feel like shit if I just found myself at a net loss of almost 20000 IP. Players lose out on this too.

Water StealerJul 20, 201750 votes

if you're concerned about profitability, i'd say a good first step is to fix the prices on a lot of your stuff, ip boosts in particular. many many times i've been tempted to buy an ip boost but coming to the realization that i'd be left with an odd number of rp after purchasing it is a deterrent. i understand the underlying economic psychology of "well if you want to make a clean purchase with 0 rp left just keep buying rp over and over and buying stuff until it works" but a lot of us can't afford that kind of indulgence. being able to make clean purchases would entice me to spend more on the game.

also, i'd be way more tempted to buy rp if there was a more specific way to do it. like having rp tied to an actual exchange rate, so you could say "i want 137 rp" or "i want $2.36 worth of rp" and being able to buy it. if you're going to enable rp microtransactions with stuff like chests and keys, at least give people the option to actually make cash microtransactions. having to drop 10-20 dollars every time i want to get one little thing is a big hurdle for me financially. granted, i'm a poor college student so this may be a problem exclusive to me, but i feel like others share my sentiment.

Buffy432Jul 20, 201765 votes

What plans are there to reward players who already have all runes and nothing to spend IP on? As the game gets older, the lack of options to use anything with IP gets frustrating.

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201769 votes

Yeah, this is a big problem for people who've been playing for a while. All that IP is about as useful as the Chuck-E-Cheese tokens in the bottom of my underwear drawer. I don't want to spoil anything, but we've got some plans in the works to address this.

We can't say more until early September, but we hear ya.

Buffy432Jul 20, 201720 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=RlNQkO39,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-20T17:54:15.500+0000)

Yeah, this is a big problem for people who've been playing for a while. All that IP is about as useful as the Chuck-E-Cheese tokens in the bottom of my underwear drawer. I don't want to spoil anything, but we've got some plans in the works to solve this.

We can't say more until early September, but we hear ya.

So you're telling me I can redeem my IP for a disco ball??? :D

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201735 votes

Remember how they always had one thing in Chuck-E-Cheese that was mathematically impossible to get. It'd be like:

Lollipop - 5 tickets Shitty plastic helicopter man - 10 tickets An actual Lamborghini - 999,999,999,999 tickets

WishStarJul 20, 201731 votes

I would honestly like to see more cosmetic options other then skins, icons and mastery level upgrade. That uses IP.

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201736 votes

What a bold idea, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

SolideusJul 20, 20175 votes

So what is actually a Cactopus? Is it a cactus shaped like an octopus, or an octopus shaped like a cactus?

ShadowflameJul 20, 201776 votes

The common Cactopus (Cactopus Riotensis) is a nocturnal creature that dwells in the depths of the ritonian trench, which divides the noobian and Instaloky tectonic plates. It feeds off positive energy in the comment section and can occassionally be observed emerging onto the boards to share its infinite wisdom with lesser beings. Little is known about the Cactopus' reproduction cycle, and to this day biologists have not been able to observe the creature's mysterious mating ritual. The Cactopus belongs to the same genus as the Eambo (Eambonis Riotensis) and its interactions with other members of the Riotensis-genus routinely attract countless common noobs (Noobus Bronzefivei), which seem to revel in observing this animal. Join us next time for a look at new evidence supposedly supporting the existence of the mysterious and evasive being known as the "good teammate" (teammateus bonus), a creature so rare it is commonly thought to be merely a myth.

PsyrikJul 20, 201755 votes

Why not make them free now and save the trouble? Whats the point of refunding it when you can make them free now?

RiotRiot CactopusJul 20, 201748 votes

It's basically just some boring technical reasons. We're working on some pretty cool other changes to how rewards work in League (which we'll announce in September), and making them free right this moment could potentially break a bunch of stuff. I can't really explain more without #spoilers

So we figured it made more sense to do this now for players instead of waiting.

Wizard HatJul 20, 201739 votes

But what about rune pages, you ask? The plan is for your rune pages to carry over into the new runes system, so prices on rune pages aren't being changed and they won't be refunded. The difference is you'll be able to edit them in champ select.

The only reason I bought multiple rune pages was BECAUSE I COULDN'T EDIT THEM IN CHAMPION SELECT. If I could, I would have made a custom rune page for every matchup during champ select, just like masteries. I would have never wasted my ip on rune pages.

If the new system lets you edit in champ select, multiple pages are pointless, and I'd like a refund.

RiotGhostcrawlerJul 20, 201728 votes

"Just make runes free until preseason."

We talked about this as a solution, and we went another way for a couple of reasons. Would be interested in your thoughts.

The current rune system is not very robust technically, which in fact is one of the reasons for why we wanted to rebuild it (though not the main reason). For example, there is a maximum rune number that you can hit, but the game doesn't really communicate that well, and so many players open up support tickets when they can't add another rune. Yes, we could go fix all of that, but why spend the effort on a system that we have already planned to remove?
Letting players get as many runes as they want invites a lot of experimentation and unusual builds and trying out runes they never had before. All of which is kind of the wrong focus for a system that is about to go away. We'd rather players be making posts and videos and streams about the new rune design rather than pumping a bunch of excitement into the one whose days or numbered. It just felt like a weird message to send.

So we hit upon the solution of making runes cheap enough during the transition that you could still pick up a new champion or try out a new build, without encouraging everyone to go out and grab every rune they could find.

AevilokJul 20, 20173 votes

Oh and while we're at it, when is preseason?

RiotMeddlerJul 21, 20177 votes

November's the plan.

Kumungu AffairJul 20, 201727 votes

So what about those of us that spend RP on rune page bundles, will there be any sort of compensation for that?

RiotGhostcrawlerJul 20, 201726 votes

I posted this on Reddit just a few minutes ago, but when we first talked about the new design I said "So rune pages are going away, right?" Because I assumed you would just make all the rune choices in champ select.

But once we got farther into implementation, we found that we were using rune pages in our playtests. It's just helpful to have a few of them set up so you can spend more time in the lobby figuring out who is playing what champion (or heaven forbid, talking strategy) rather than quickly trying to grab the right runes.

I wouldn't say our solution for rune pages is finalized yet by any stretch. We are still iterating a lot on the rune system (and IP and everything). Feedback on all of this is appreciated.

NefasJul 20, 201748 votes

I don't think what you are saying is a very fair argument at all. Masteries and mastery pages have always been free. You are "updating" runes and masteries to be one system but you are mostly removing the stat-based system (runes) in favor of the effects-based system (masteries). All of the runes reforged runes are more akin to masteries than old runes.

You can name things what you want but functionally to me you are getting rid of runes and making us pay for masteries.

KaRniVooL13Jul 20, 201720 votes

i have all the runes i could ever use... i have 20 rune pages... i have all champs . legit all of them

what am i to do with IP ?

refund ip ok? so im gonna have more IP with nothing to do with it

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

TheLastShadow45Jul 20, 20174 votes

I guess when chroma sales come around again you can get those with all the IP you get back.

ZielmannJul 20, 201720 votes

So, waaaaay back in the day, you guys sold special runes with things like the Harrowing and Snowdown. They were identical in stats to the T3 runes, but were basically just reskinned.

I'm a big fan of limited/exclusive content, so I bought one or two of them when they were available (didn't have all the extra IP back then to buy them all). Are these just going to be gone forever now? That'd make me a little sad. I don't even know what might fit in with the new system sensibly, but it'd be cool if there were a way we could keep an equivalent of that limited content in the new system, for those who still have them sitting around.

RiotRiot TuxedoBearJul 20, 201743 votes

We haven't forgotten about those and have something in mind for you :)

Lvl 4 MewJul 20, 201716 votes

What about those who spent RP on rune pages and what not? I don't want to lose actual money. Jinx

ShieldWarriorJul 20, 201716 votes

I ask, if we can edit them in champion select unlike now there is no need of other 19 rune pages i have. If new system is like mastery page i will never use other 19 rune pages, so can i refund them later?