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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13

RiotRiot Scruffy·12/13/2019, 5:33:39 PM·1 votes·52,819 views

Hey all,

It’s Riot Scruffy here and with Meddler out, I’m subbing in for some quick gameplay thoughts. With the holidays, this will probably be the last post of 2019, so we hope you all get some rest and stay cozy someplace warm. See you all in January.

Patch 9.24b The end of year always presents some unique challenges with our patch schedule winding down and us wanting to get in as many tweaks as we can to tune preseason. Patch 9.24 is our last full patch of the year and just went live this week. We are planning to do a follow up “mini patch” next week with more champion and systems balance (but no major features or mechanics changes).

Dragon Souls and Elder We’ve had enough time and data to do analysis on the impacts of dragon soul and elder dragon buff as end game objective rewards. In general both dragon souls and elder buff are stronger than we think they should be, but some individual buffs are more than others. Our plans for 9.24b are:

  • Ocean Soul - big nerf
  • Infernal Soul - moderate nerf
  • Mountain Soul - moderate nerf
  • Elder buff - moderate nerf
  • Cloud Soul - no change

Lethality items follow up Overall we’re seeing the updated Lethality items as a bit underpowered across the board. Our current approach is that we want to buff Serrated Dirk by 5 AD to make the build path a bit more powerful and create some more early threat. Additionally we also want to buff Edge of Night by that same 5 AD, so that buying it in the right games (mage / CC heavy) has a slightly higher payoff. Aside from that, the individual items are filling a unique set of contexts and roles well, so assassins now have a few more choices around how they want to focus their builds.

Support items follow up The core concept of only having to buy the support once, and then immediately transitioning into the main item system has landed really well we think. It’s leading to more flexible build options for supports that feel more tailored to the champ you're playing. Another positive effect we’re seeing is a few more viable champs to the support role that would rather not have spent a lot of gold on the old items.

We do however have two areas that we want to improve for 10.1. One is differentiating the stat lines more between the aggressive and defensive options. Relic Shield and Steel Shoulderguard will have some of their offensive stats pushed into health regen and Spectral Sickle and Spellthief’s Edge will have some of their health converted to mana regen for a more glass cannon build. Overall we think that by giving these items more defined stat profiles we can give the users a bit more of what they need. The second change we’re making for 10.1 is increasing the tier 3 quest goal so that we can remove the farming penalty once you reach tier 3.

Sylas Mechanics Changes We have some Sylas work coming to PBE for patch 10.1. The core goal here is to shift his mechanics in a way that open up some weaknesses for him in very high level play while making him a viable champ for the majority of players (it’s a buff overall). We’re combining a set of strategies that we think will lead to this outcome:

  • Less lane control, but significantly stronger late - having a safe, strong lane leads to being a strong option in all possible matchups. To counterbalance we’re buffing his late game across multiple axes (damage, tankiness, cooldowns)
  • Mid viability over jungle - Juggling multiple roles lead to an additional strength as a flex pick. We think we can get him to a healthier spot for mid lane if we don’t allow him to be a strong flex pick in jungle
  • Remove tools - E shield. Having a tool for every situation is something that can lead to this problem so we are going to remove the shield on E and give back the power in other places on the kit.
  • Lowering skill floor on passive and W - We want to soften a few of the optimizations that many players are struggling to access without pulling out the decisions and skills of experienced players entirely.

New Champion Release Pace The end of this year leading into next year will have a flurry of new champions (Senna, Aphelios, Sett). We are as excited as you about this, but our current goal is not to speed up the pace of new champions and VGUs. The way that we develop focuses on getting it right over hitting perfect deadlines, so sometimes projects can cluster together like these three. Expect things to slow down a bit and 2020 should be fairly similar to 2019 in terms of champion releases.

A related note is that Senna -> Aphelios -> Sett I think are a good representation of our overall approach to champion complexity and difficulty going forward. We want to have a wide range of simple, complex, accessible, and difficult offerings for players of all types so we’re aiming to balance that throughout our new champions and VGUs in 2020.

-Scruffy

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/9.24.2/img/champion/Sion.png

252 Comments

Zoli Ben12/13/2019, 5:50:36 PM39 votes

Can Urgot get some compensete buffs for Conqueror ranged champion nerf? Today I got beat by a Nasus who simply outhealed himself no matter how much life steal and amplifier I had, I was even fed mostly but the fact he outheals me so much is just too bad IMO. item 3075 was useless there.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/2wjE4Iqs-quick-gameplay-thoughts-september-22

This was promised over 2 years ago and it was not implamented still.

pewnez12/14/2019, 12:48:59 AM27 votes

After reading and testing the new Sylas changes on the PBE, Overall i fail to see what these are going to accomplish and mind you that Riot meantioned them as "it's a buff overall" which they are clearly not.

The laning phase:

  • Yes he is now weak early game. His wave clear, which was already mediocre decreased considerably.He shines at skirmishes but he won't be able to clear the wave in a realistic time to do anything other than trying to survive and scale.
  • Less pressure overall, as his Q1 now does much less poke damage and minion damage and last he has much worse stats which naturally makes him weaker.
  • Mana wise,you need to be clever about the way you spend it, and that's fine and the way it should be but i feel like it's still a bit too much comparing to other midlaners since his passive is on the weak side against minions.

Now as Riot said: "to counterbalance we’re buffing his late game across multiple axes (damage, tankiness, cooldowns) "

Damage: Yes it's higher, however his damage now it's a lot less reliable. You will need to accurately hit your E2, which means going for heavy trades. If you were used to do the E2+Q mechanic, that's not a thing anymore as it got removed. So the skill that does the most damage to champions NOW is also his engage tool (E2) which mind you, it's a skill with utility since it gap closes you into the enemy while also provinding a knockup. Awfull decision here, this ability shouldn't be doing this much damage as it makes him more burst oriented. Also removing skill expression after all this time is never welcome. It's a huge loss.

Tankiness: If you guys want Sylas to be a lategame champion that is totally fine and it will make him easier to balance which is a really good thing. The extra Armor/MR and HP he gets in the late stages of the game doesn't make up for the loss in the early game in addition to removing his shield mechanic, but it's a start i suppose.

Cooldowns: The new cooldowns are a LOT better. His new W will help him a lot in the late game to survive but it will continue to be his most obnoxious ability and probably the reason people tend to not like facing him. He will be able to cast a lot more E's aswell, but as previously meantioned he now can't do E2+Q combo so it feels like it would be a lot better to just switch the cooldown to it's previous state (14) and have this mechanic added back since it represents high risk, high reward in most scenarios and that's a good thing for what this champion represents.

Passive: The 3 stacks of his passive will definetly help out many players but it doesn't realistic do anything to others that already got the grasp of how the kit works and functions. Speaking of this, he currently feels clunky to play as, because now he can't auto attack reset with his passive after any ability, his W especially.I'm sure others will agree with this but if this changes go foward, he will loose a huge part of his identity and ironically he will be unable to use his new 3 max charges of his passive in a trade because it will take too long for him to do such combo.

I can easily accept the changes to his Q and W, and it;s a wise decision to shift power from his early to his late game. However i won't stay silent when they are removing 2 really cool and unique mechanics Sylas has. Presenting this changes into making you believe they are a good thing and right after you find out through testing that some of the new weaknesses are not detailed in these changes like they should (aa resets with passive, E2+Q combo). Reading Quick Gameplay Thoughts and then playing him in the PBE didn't felt coherent..it truly felt misleading and i hope something can be done.

So, overall these changes managed to hit one of the goals Riot has which is, IT DOES open up a lot of weaknesses for him in very high level play and for the majority of players. These don't seem too attractive to Sylas players generally speaking and they are clearly not a buff overall. It's even absurd to think they are and to present them as if. Sorry for my lack of control in the latest part of the comment, but in the end i have the same goal as people working at Riot. It hurts to see such an amazing champion to go down this path.

HommeGoujon12/13/2019, 6:08:11 PM23 votes

Hi, Any plan to fix the Client? That thing is laggy and full of bugs.

Thanks

AIQ12/13/2019, 5:58:04 PM22 votes

Is the jungle between levels 7-10 going as intended or is there any talk about buffing the EXP during this window?

Laners can be up 3 levels and Duos = or higher than a jungler that decides to do some objectives or ganks during this delicate time.

Is there any work to be done to the Jungle?

Is there any compensation for what is ultimately a nerf to Shyvana already weak passive?

Now she can only have 4 Dragons so buffing the 5 to 10 can at least return her to pre-rework numbers with no fear of over powering her. Or were you going to allow her to stack with elders?

Multiple champions get low benefit from cloud dragon. (IE. Jayce Nid Udyr etc..) Some get 0 benefit, like Quinn and Shyvana. Is there any compensation for those champions or are they just screwed?

For instance a solution for Shyvana could be, +10 fury when reverting to human.

Also Akalis Shroud follows into Mordes Shadow Realm... so that's a thing I'm pretty sure is not supposed to be a thing.

Infernape12/13/2019, 5:40:56 PM21 votes

I mean don't you guys think the problem with Sylas is in his itemisation itself? He's a AP fighter without the itemisation to exist, meaning he's forced to have ridiculous amounts of shielding and healing in his kit and be stuck in a limbo where he builds AP and durability and deals peanut damage, or builds flat AP and pen and explodes because he needs to be in the thick of a fight to work.

Frosted Tips12/13/2019, 8:04:51 PM15 votes

A few quick questions:

  1. When will we be getting updates on AP Bruiser items that were promised years ago and specifically were not implemented in the middle of season 9 because it was not an opportune time, but for some reason are not being tested this preseason. A Rioter, maybe you, I don't remember said the internal testing and the PBE testing were going well?

  2. Any time frame on Fiddlesticks and Volibear Reworks?

  3. Ryze has still proven time and time again to be unhealthy and Meta defining, will we see another Rework or atleast some substantial nerfs until a new small kit update since this one is not working out?

  4. How do you think Diana is fairing with her E and R swap?

  5. So Kalista is still a dead champion and one major way to fix her is by making slows reduce her hop range instead of slowing her attack speed like they currently do. I feel if this change went through then she would have a chance of being balanced, but currently slows hurt her far too much.

Jonii Shinsu12/13/2019, 11:04:21 PM13 votes

I was worried about sylas when I read this. Now I saw the changes and am even more worried.

Please reconsider what you're changing about sylas, no one who plays him is happy right now with this direction(talking about the mechanics being removed and the 3 passive stack change specifically).

Void225812/13/2019, 10:30:43 PM12 votes

Item sets with the new support items are a problem. You cannot set a preferred spot for it at all and it moves around when it upgrades. Both of these are problems. We need to have the active show up on the key we expect, and we need to use that key for something else (usually pots) before the ward trinket comes online. We need to be able to set preferred item slots for EACH LEVEL of the support items. This is especially important since you are no longer having the upgrade happen in the shop; having it immediately in the right place can turn a fight if you need vision, whereas looking down to see where it landed can be deadly.

It would also be nice if we could preferred slots for rune items, ie boots, biscuits, and especially stopwatch. We need to know that our invul is on the key it is supposed to be on or a game can be thrown on a bad teamfight. The shop equivalent items do NOT place the runes versions in their spot (ie if you set the stopwatch from the shop to slot 3, the rune stopwatch will still go to the first open slot (usually 1)).

nardysack12/14/2019, 8:58:25 AM12 votes

PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH THE SYLAS CHANGES. Holy shit I just played him on PBE this champion is even more dogshit than he already was. You guys think you buffed him? You just made him even more clunkier than he already was AND you fucked up the whole identity of the champ by removing the e1 shield. Also not to mention that Sylas' passive is basically nonexistent... It literally does no fucking damage and now you are nerfing the range of it and trying to compensate by adding another charge? Who fucking cares about his passive charges? NOBODY. Nobody gives a fuck about how many passive charges he has ESPECIALLY when he can't even auto reset anymore. Seriously Riot, what the fuck are you guys thinking?

PrettyPinkPutin12/13/2019, 5:51:45 PM11 votes

Surprising to see another post pop up! Now that the patch and conqueror nerfs hit, how are Ezreal and Urgot faring? They were contenders for potential fixes with the conqueror changes as it would hit them primarily since it's their primary keystone instead of a flex choice like Cassio and Ryze, Urgot especially interests me since he feels kinda weird to play for a while since some time where his early especially was impacted leading to a great disparity between low and high mmr.

MarryUs12/13/2019, 5:44:30 PM9 votes

Any plans for Taliyah?

PowerOfDrainAge12/13/2019, 6:09:16 PM9 votes

When to expect the lovely ape MonkeyKing to hit PBE?

Any first thoughts to share on Aphelios ?

Possible candidates for 9.24b?

AS I LAY FEEDING12/14/2019, 2:58:58 AM9 votes

E2-Q has been removed, his AA resets have been removed.

These sylas changes is like removing rivens anim cancel "mechanics". from what i see, nobody wants these changes (including myself). Make him WAY less fun and less rewarding. Late game is irrelevant in modern league. If these changes go through i am done with league.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/sylasmains/ (nobody likes it)

Makko012/13/2019, 8:38:24 PM9 votes

And Urgot? We are very bad since Conq nerf.

Urgot Urgot Urgot Urgot Urgot Urgot

20InchDarkinDong12/13/2019, 5:38:19 PM8 votes

Any news on Aatrox? There was a mechanical change promised for him, since the start of Worlds, and its nowhere to be seen. He feels really lackluster to feel rn because of the Waveclear nerfs, that are obviously not reverted. Can you guys at least give a stance on him or something?

J Eevo12/14/2019, 9:10:16 AM8 votes

Sylas ...? This feels like one of those old pre-rework champs that felt unplayable in lane but if by some grace of god they got fed the game turned into a fiesta, and they got to dominate people. Why are you making his already weak laning even worse, in exchange for making his burst so high? This feels like a lesson the balance team learned on several separate occasions, where the champ will have ridiculous scaling, crazy burst, no escape and his gameplay loop will just make him go in, pop someone lategame EFFORTLESSLY, then die because they have no depth left in the kit whatsoever. Isn't this what you're deliberately trying to pull Diana out of, and which you already reworked assassins to avoid?

Why is he getting what seems like just an assassin kit with added bonus of stolen Rs on top, instead of his kit having some cohesive structure? What is his teamfight gameplay supposed to look like?

It feels like the R just gets ignored while you make the rest of his kit be an easy straightforward lategame burst assassin with no depth. I get the AP bruiser itemization got scrapped but did you have to just straight up scrap the ap bruiser idea in favor of a cheap AP amumu knockoff? We already have that ingame, people can already pick amumu and go ap and just do that same braindead game loop of burst then die, why is this the direction?

TheSilentShane12/13/2019, 8:10:59 PM6 votes

Any update on the Aatrox buffs you guys said were going to be coming post-worlds? His winrate has been steadily declining since his sustain and waveclear was gutted a few months ago. With the Conqueror changes, he’s weaker than ever. I understand we don’t want him to go back to the meta defining monster he was in early 2019 but right now he’s a borderline troll pick into anything but very specific matchups. He’s weak early, mediocre mid game, and weak late game. He takes way too much effort to play for what you get out of him right now and the constant radio silence from the dev team is extremely disheartening.

Dannilion12/15/2019, 3:57:17 AM6 votes

Hello, Sylas main here. I have 300k on him and loved the champion since release, i know possibly somebody else can have more mastery points but still 300 is not a small number. Been playing the champion since release, saw him being OP and then rightfully nerfed. Tested the current "buffs" on PBE for a few games. It feels like the champion has no cohesion anymore. His passive doesn't really interact with his kit anymore, because you never realistically have the time to use autos between spells. The champion is clearly not an assassin, as his uniqueness lies in stealing ults, something which is way better suited for a more bruiser-ish type of gameplay. I think the passive and Q changes are great, make Q reward a good use of it that manages to hit the target in the intersection point. Also lowering the passive range is great: it's harder to hit multiple people with it and it makes your positioning matter more. But then that's about it. I think there is no reason his E needs to have that high damage when the spell is his engage tool. You could've just left the E damage low and kept the auto reset, which by the way makes really no sense removing from either E or W. Riven is a champion in the game, her animation canceling is accepted and understood, and Sylas BY DESIGN requires for you to know what every ult in the game does, so there's really no way he can be a beginner champion. I think the focus of the champion should be on his passive, it's fine if his spells don't deal absurd amounts of damage because with every spell he casts he gets a passive proc (2 stacks are already too many, he should be losing something if he chooses to spam all of his spells together for some burst without autoing between them). Overall i'd very much rather have current live Sylas with 45% Winrate than the one that is on PBE. I really hope Riot listens to us players because so far i have not seen a Sylas player happy with the changes.Sylas

Darth Emi12/13/2019, 9:46:01 PM5 votes

Please Scruffy, if you are going to "lower the skill floor of the passive" for Sylas, PLEASE do not remove the auto attack resets. There is a reason why everyone in the community likes it. It really differentiates a good Sylas from a bad one. I'm totally okay with E shield removal, more scaling into the later game, and W changes that "remove the skill floor on the W", but the passive was fully functional as it is. It just needed a damage revert. So PLEEEEASE don't change the passive auto attack resets.

meteorbreaker12/13/2019, 6:10:46 PM5 votes

Hello Scruffy and Meddler!

  1. Recently, Lee Sin was getting good buffs iIs it time to take it back them? With the change of the Conqueror, he has more sustain than he needs. Is it time to reduce this? His winrate is below on average, but is it time to reduce the pick rates of popular champions (for example, Ezreal, Thresh), for a larger pool of champions?

  2. About Zyra. Could you help her a little in the solo lane? For example, correct the interaction of the Conqueror with her plants? Plants do not update their damage for some reason from the rune. Can you strengthen her minions wave clear? For example, add a passive to her Q damage, (example,more damage to minions ). Could correct her auto-attacks? They are somewhat slow and clumsy, sometimes it’s not very convenient to use them. Especially when it comes to towers. And can they somehow be combined with plant attacks? Less random values.

Wina Topa12/13/2019, 6:29:10 PM5 votes

Any plans for aatrox changes ?

Schuhbart12/13/2019, 6:32:45 PM5 votes

Literally nothing can go wrong when you remove the support item farm penalty, i am looking forward to 10.1 mates

RealDsy12/13/2019, 8:58:34 PM5 votes

What about Sylas Sylas Sylas ??? 42% winrate in challanger, 44/44 position with 46% winrate at plat+ in 9.23???

Yordle Xayah12/13/2019, 10:20:47 PM5 votes

Buffing Lethality for more "early threat" you say. Does this mean you believe assassins to be in a bad spot and require help? I suppose you believe the Mid Lane doesn't have enough power or influence in the game, since there's where assassins are played the most. Strangest part was probably how you didn't even mentioned ranged characters abusing Lethality, which makes me think you're not really looking at the big picture if you think only the Zeds and Talons of the world rush the Serrated Dirk. Not sure that narrow view is the best to balance out an item, though I guess that doesn't really bother you guys. I suppose we're headed in the direction of seeing if the bruiser or the assassins burst each other faster. Oh well.

fatflyingbaby12/14/2019, 2:02:34 AM5 votes

I really hope riot doesn't remove sylas E2-Q and aa resets. Stop trying to make him have no skill floor.. if you want him to be a midlaner then he has to have a decent skill floor.. Just nerf w heal and give back dmg in his q and passive (most important being passive), i can live without shield and healing but he needs to be able to burst people if he is meant for mid..

Chull12/14/2019, 2:35:49 AM4 votes

Please dont go through with the sylas changes, listen to those who play and main him, these changes will seriously hurt the champion and cause people to stop playing him altogether.

Mimikÿu12/13/2019, 8:37:47 PM4 votes

Any update on the client bugs/FPS drops that's been happening for 2 patches now? There's been alot of threads about it on the boards

Daddy Ants12/14/2019, 9:18:48 PM4 votes

Caitlyn - Needs looking at.

bawlsofsteel12/14/2019, 11:46:09 PM4 votes

Sylas buff my ass lmao

CaptainAntiHeroz12/15/2019, 1:24:21 AM4 votes

These Sylas changes are not okay

The Cane Master12/14/2019, 2:39:36 PM3 votes

It's been 10 years of having Nasus in the same extremely binary state, so much so that it's boring to both play with and against him. Moreover, he's had ~0% competitive pick rate for the past 5 years consecutively, while also being just a gimmick pick in high elo. Given the fact that he has NEVER BEEN REWORKED in a full decade, why aren't his issues addressed in the same way as with Diana ?

Blue Comfort12/13/2019, 9:35:41 PM3 votes

How are the Fiddlesticks Volibear reworks doing? When can we expect them?

ZeroSixteen12/13/2019, 9:10:29 PM3 votes

Hey Scruffy do we have any idea when we will start to see theSylas changes that were talked about a few patches ago?

Ms Cougar12/14/2019, 7:54:54 AM3 votes

The issue with the support item changes, it it will heavily swing lategame power to mage supports. With zyra support, come midgame, a wave vanishes in seconds, with braum...well, the team will report me for afking by the time I clear a wave. This is going to lead to a big imbalance in lategames, where damage escalates hard and tankyness doesn't. A continuation of the income gain and/or significantly buffing the GP5 might be more power neutral between different support classes.

Karn Bishop12/13/2019, 8:59:56 PM3 votes

The Yuumi changes have been very poorly received by her mains much in the same way the riven changes were received by their mains do you have any plans to revert this or do you only care about win rate and just abandon how the champion feels to play?

Krys Star12/13/2019, 8:42:19 PM3 votes

I'm excited for the changes for support items! It feels awful lacking the mana regen. Will the 10% cdr be coming back to the items as well? At least for the third tier? I feel so naked not having that 10% after having it for so many years/seasons.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, why is Spellthiefs line getting 50% Mana Regen and Sickle is getting 100% Mana Regen? I would assume it's because of the disparity of mana regen between enchant supports vs Pyke, Thresh etc?

Kata Ga Kill12/16/2019, 6:24:08 AM3 votes

PBE Sylas E High Base DMG + 100% AP Scaling.....

Are u already again drunk?

Didnt u already learn from your mistake with Galio Q 100% AP Scaling????

RekSai CoffeeCo12/20/2019, 7:28:03 PM3 votes

Waiting on client fixes.

Waiting on Nexus Blitz.

Waiting on 3rd, 4th and 5th gamemode with RGM thrown in (TFT doesn't count). Waiting on adjustment of solo lane experience to be balanced with jungle/duo lane.

Waiting on Rito to get a clue how owning over half the total champs should earn you a WHOLE reroll for ARAM always, not this 92-95% thing you got going on.

CoinFlipBot12/24/2019, 12:14:13 AM2 votes

ur game is disgusting

LucidWatermelon12/14/2019, 2:08:17 AM1 votes

Do you have a roadmap on Visual Updates ? or a list of the next champion in tthe line? I'm talking about just Visual/Animations updates not full VGUs thx :D

Also Teemo Teemo rework WHEN?