Attn Rocksurfers: Seismic shove changes in internal testing

RiotRiot Scruffy·6/24/2016, 6:44:46 PM·77 votes·44,910 views

Hey all Taliyah players, We're testing some changes to her W spell internally (will be on pbe soontm). The two different versions that we're working with right now are

  1. Vector cast W (similar to rumble ult)
  2. Current w cast paradigm without lockout (so as soon as you choose a direction, casting is unlocked)

Both are testing pretty well for us internally and are meeting our goals of increased usability for both W and W->E combo. No promises to make but we're targeting the 6.14 patch.

Side note: with her current strength and the increased dps from the removal of the W lockout with these changes we will likely have to nerf her in other ways to keep her from going out of control. Possible spaces here are Q mana/early damage or W->E combo damage.

This is just a heads up to keep everyone informed but any and all feedback is welcome in this thread.

198 Comments

Hellioning6/24/2016, 6:54:43 PM24 votes

Finally. I don't play her enough, so when I got her in ARAM last night, I kept trying to vector cast W and everything kept going in weird directions.

So glad you're thinking about changing it to vector.

Jedibug986/25/2016, 7:17:08 AM11 votes

I have been playing Taliyah nonstop since release, and have had a ton of fun on her in her current state, the self-silence I think is a very nessisary drawback in her kit, you can already do rediculous things with the e-w combo, changing to vector would just make her too easy to play, and would draw in many players who don't want to put in the time to learn her (current) mechanics, overall I think she is in a very healthy state, and does not need a change to the W, not all champions are supposed to be easy to play, that being said I would hate option 2 even more, because one of the reasons she had such a low win rate upon release was because of how weak her q was, both of the options are very unnecessary changes to a very balanced champion.

ShadowParker6/24/2016, 8:26:48 PM10 votes

Scruffy, please dont. As someone who was originally against the way her w casted. I have gotten used to it and in fact, love it. Please don't change it now, if you ask the top taliyah players I think they'd agree with me as well.

Can we at least have an option of either or?

Zero Ichimonji6/24/2016, 11:20:20 PM9 votes

I disagree with changing W and nerfing her. Leave it the way it is. If people can't get used to it, that's their problem. Don't nerf her for the rest of us just because people are slow learners.

Brimaz The King6/24/2016, 6:47:23 PM9 votes

I just started getting used to her w.

Rivvy6/25/2016, 1:43:44 AM9 votes

I really feel that Taliyah is fine as is. Its almost the same as bard's release. People don't think she's that good, but she is. She is really really fun. I like her W as it is now.

EDIT: If you were going to go with any change, I'd take the latter. But honestly, I like it as is. IT may be a bit hard and new, but its fine once you figure it out. Its not bad. I like it.

LKV26/25/2016, 1:13:14 PM6 votes

Her current W is fine, don't change it pls, double tapping is ok, u just have to play her 10-15, i don't see where is the problem Riot.

ForeverLaxx6/25/2016, 4:18:51 AM6 votes

I just don't know why you even bothered with the different cast method of her W in the first place, unless the intent was to force clunkiness into her kit so that you could justify "added power" (which she's already exceptionally low on anyway due to her damageless and porous ultimate). You already had a system in place for these types of spells that Rumble and Victor have been enjoying for years, so if the listed reasoning was "because that kind of spell is weird and different, making it hard to learn" then why would you introduce another new spell cast that replicates everything a vector cast did, but slower, clunkier, and far less precise? My only real guess is that you wanted the option to keep the spell as a standard Cho-gath knockup while allowing you to make it a directional knock if desired. The big problem with that is that nearly all the time you're going to be trying to add a direction so the entire spell just becomes a chore to use.

It only took me one game to get the pattern down in order to get the spell to go where I wanted, but until I untrained my vector tendencies, it was very unfun and practically ruined the champion for me from a design standpoint. At least you're actually considering and testing vector casting instead of stubbornly telling the players that the current cast paradigm is objectively superior and to just deal with it.

I don't know why you think she'll have to be nerfed for this usability fix, though. Her damage is already low and conditional. She needs allies to be strong and this change wouldn't affect that at all.

Deneviel6/24/2016, 7:24:48 PM6 votes

Have you considered how these changes will impact support Taliyah ?

A reliable long range knock will be the bane of any squishy champ

Nausicäa 6/25/2016, 4:13:14 AM5 votes

While i do think that her w cast is pretty cumbersome im kind of against allowing w-e combo and the resulting nerfs that she would get because of it.

xxxMadLionxxx6/24/2016, 9:02:06 PM5 votes

I'm happy riot realized she was clunky ASF. That was the reason I stopped playing her. I also don't like how her Q works independently from her entire kit.

Meaning if you use Q, you can't cast anything else for a few seconds.

I would love to test on the PBE so can you figure out how to make that possible?

Lugg6/24/2016, 9:13:39 PM5 votes

Scruffy, thanks for the update. It's awesome when you guys keep us informed of upcoming changes and why you are moving that direction.

Jubei K6/25/2016, 3:40:54 PM5 votes

As someone who has taken to taliyah with a smile on my face and a renewed enthusiasm for league, weaving the stone as a defender of my bot and top laners kda's. I loved that her W was different and something that needed some adjusting to, as she is learning to control her power. This would be a sad thing to lose, she is a great champion and the design, lore and mechanics merging like they have would be a sad thing to lose.

Master Stache6/24/2016, 8:27:28 PM4 votes

I understand how the second change increases usability, though at the cost of risk/reward, but I don't understand the first. The intend of the current cast type was to make a vector like cast type that was more intuitive/easier to learn. Has it not proven to be?

Other than that, I personally don't want to see her Q nerfed to compensate. I've started enjoying her a lot ever since the Q buff opened her up to a Q max build. Though I also personally would rather see the E-W combo remain difficult to pull off, but highly reward, but I understand that it must put off a lot of people.

Fláreon7/3/2016, 4:57:57 AM4 votes

Can we not? I appreciate the work you're trying to do, but, I have gotten used to her W and in ok with it, plus if that means a nerf elsewhere I'd rather she stay as she is, she's perfect, most balanced and fun champion in a long time, just leave her be everyone who has learned how to play her is already happy with her.

AMYS GRAVE6/24/2016, 7:44:44 PM4 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/5IpizsoF-taliyah-post-release-follow-up?comment=00010000

Zenonthestoic brings up some good points against vector cast here ^ in their relation to learning curves and i was hoping that you could you comment more in depth on why that is worth the tradeoff you're making to swap in vector casting here.

AppleStarz7/4/2016, 4:56:04 AM4 votes

I'm sure my comment will go unnoticed and my opinion doesn't even matter since I'm just one of the millions of players of League.. But I am a Taliyah main. I love her. Loved her since release. She has gotten me from Gold V to Plat IV so far, and I'm climbing fast.

I like how she is now. I've practiced her a lot and I'm good with her how she is, so why are you punishing people that have put in the work to learn her? This is disappointing, especially knowing that this "change" will require her damage output to be nerfed. This situation bothers me.

Lazypeon1006/24/2016, 6:52:34 PM4 votes

These seem like overall good choices to increase the usability of her W. I think currently she is too much effort for not enough reward (not meaning to call her weak), so this seems like a step in the right direction to me.

LSmaster166/25/2016, 1:06:58 PM3 votes

I could see the first one being an okay change though the current casting system works and doesn't really need to be changed imo.

Please do not make the second change though. The e w combo is supposed to be telegraphed to balance it and if you switch it to allow w e that makes it to be easier to pull off making you need to lower the reward or nerf another part of her kit.

Please just leave her how she is riot, its not broken, don't fix it.

MilkyCarton7/2/2016, 9:50:29 AM3 votes

I like Taliyah how she is. Pls don't change :'(

Denaari7/2/2016, 4:44:34 PM3 votes

Please don't change her. She's fine exactly how she is.

BebePanthère6/25/2016, 12:12:29 PM3 votes

God please don't....

Making her easier to play, and nerfing her true potential because it would then be too easy to wreck people is such a bad idea...

She is in a good state right now, aside from the Q cast who is impossible after the W E combo (I don't know why, wasn't like this in 6.11), she is so perfect right now...

The only thing that needs attention is small tweaking of her ult.

The rest is fine as it is (and maybe reduce a little bit the Soiled grounds).

Please don't mess her up...

Nebuul6/24/2016, 8:15:32 PM3 votes

I think it is great that you all were able to take a step back and reevaluate the casting on this spell. Thanks for that!

Noblewind6/24/2016, 10:41:31 PM2 votes

You just need the option to start the W, and tap it again (or not) for the direction pop WHILE being able to move/cast other spells during the delay between first cast and the knock up. Hoping for option 2!!

CasterGilgamesh6/25/2016, 1:48:09 AM2 votes

people play her?

stokastic6/25/2016, 2:18:15 AM2 votes

Thanks for looking into this!

While the spell lockout after W should be removed for QoL's sake, it does add considerable power to her spell rotation and I understand she has to pay for that somewhere, it'd be really awesome if her Q didn't have to suffer because of this. I feel like the early damage from E procs during W's knockback would be a good place to remove power. Her Q feels really good right now though and it would be a shame to lose power for what really should only be a QoL fix.

Quepha6/24/2016, 7:14:32 PM2 votes

Does this mean she'll be able to easily combo her E after landing a W?

TruckFump20166/25/2016, 9:07:06 AM2 votes

Her W is super easy and simple the way it is now

Please dont make it a rumble ult

Why add a layer of difficulty that does not need to be there?

PROJECT Bear6/24/2016, 6:49:38 PM2 votes

why not both 1 and 2?

4N3eRoIUkr7/7/2016, 12:21:39 AM2 votes

Maybe a bit late now.... I have a lvl 7 Taliyah and these changes will probably make her gameplay less rewarding. Her e+w combo will be easier to land and it already does a lot of damage. The combo is part of the mechanical aspect of league. As for competitive game having the difference between players who can land and players who cant, will show the person's investment in a champion. The e+w combo is not easy to pull off with a tough opponent and landing it against these players just gives you, as a player, a compliment to how much you have practiced Taliyah. As for the possibility of option 2, it can be a nice tuning for Taliyah. I do remember messing up my combo because of the direction I launch my enemy to. Being punish for this is very reasonable and its part of the learning process.

As my stand point, Taliyah is currently in a balance position. A nice tune on her damage might be enough to give her opponents a room for counter play. But we also need to consider that when she is in her worked ground, her dps sinks drastically. It is her weakness and people should punish it, but it does not mean it needs a nerf. Having to think about the spacing and all is part of her kit. And this is probably the most difficult part learning Taliyah. A player cannot just use Taliyah's Q blindly. This applies throughout the whole game, laning, team fights, and so on. Her weakness is clear and also reveals the balance in her kit. Not to mention her Ult is a utility based, its a very situational Ult but it is in very rare occasion in use during 1v1 or team fights. Also another drawback. Though preferably a tuning on e, maybe her early damage or even mana can also be considered when she is in the spotlight for a change/nerf. There are a lot possibilities that Taliyah can be change to balance her overall. However, I do believe her mechanical aspect should not change. Theres a room for counter play and most of all its challenging, fun, and rewarding as the way it is. Welp..... it just my opinion though (o.o)ノシ

usz7/1/2016, 8:40:38 PM2 votes

Present version without silence would be nice. Q/E/R could work as Karthus Q during this "silence" time.

TentaclesCallMe7/3/2016, 10:42:29 PM2 votes

I have an issue with the way Vector plays for myself. I have always had issues with it, mostly because of the way I habitually move my mouse. Because of this when I noticed the way you guys had Taliyah's W, with the paradigm cast, I was excited. Finally a champion with a kit I like and a ability that isn't vector that I can use! I have had no issues with the current way of casting and I have been playing her I would say well(66% win rate in ranked Gold 3). So were I can see vector being nice for those who can use it. I do not want it on my new main. It would ruin me.

Quorin7/5/2016, 10:07:04 PM2 votes

I really hope this vector change doesn't go through

Oscar Senpai6/27/2016, 4:43:40 AM1 votes

How about leaving it the way it is for people that don't use smart cast, and changing it to vector casting for those who do? Removing the lockout is a huge mistake in my opinion since it will actually make it easier for people to use her combo which will inevitably make her get nerfed which will reduce her potential making it so that she will be played even less....

(BTW I'm a main Taliyah player, mastery 7 / most played / climbed to gold 4 with her)