I said
"It sounds like you guys have no fucking clue as to what are you doing. Hire competent people please so the players don't have to be jerked around every season"
And that IS what it sounds like to ME. And I do feel like I get jerked around every season.
Ridiculous that you would delete the comment.
ModUlanopo14 votesInsult them? They seem incompetent. How else can I say that? Its not an insult.
It remains an insult. You could very easily have expressed your criticism in a way that does not drive out discussion. Next time, try something like, "I feel like the pace of change has been too fast this season and the changes have targeted the wrong things". You could have then expanded on what you perceive as the problem and how it could be addressed.
Doing it that way both encourages the devs to post more often and it makes the boards a better place.
Failog3 votesNo, my criticism is that, given all the shit we have seen, I am wondering if they have the skill and talent needed for the job. I have been nice for years. Now I suspect the leadership is bad, and that they may have hired the wrong people.
What I find offensive, is Riot, hearing the cries for Aatrox mains for years asking for him to be fixed, deliver a product that no one was asking for or hoping for, which essentially deletes the very champion that we wanted saved. It was the biggest fuck you to the players I have ever seen. THAT is offensive, deciding the time I spent with Aatrox developing skill with him means nothing. I find that personally offensive. How about that?
ModUlanopo5 votesI am wondering if they have the skill and talent needed for the job. I have been nice for years. Now I suspect the leadership is bad, and that they may have hired the wrong people.
Delete that portion and you're good to go. I'm not saying it's not a valid opinion. I'm saying it's not acceptable on the boards.
Failog3 votesAnd why not? We as the players, the reason Riot is a billion dollar a year company, are hear on the boards to express what we think about the game AND Riot. If Riot doesn't care how their actions make their players feel, I don't know what to say. I think their work shows a level of incompetency. If you bought a house and the cabinets were not lined up correctly, you would say that whoever installed it was incompetent, right? Are you really personally insulting the person, or are you really just stating the fact that the work was incompetent?
ModUlanopo3 votesIf you bought a house and the cabinets were not lined up correctly, you would say that whoever installed it was incompetent, right?
I would like to introduce you the "Three Gates of Speech":
https://i.imgur.com/dOiP0nu.jpg[/img]
While it may be true in some circumstances that a person is not as skilled at their job as one would like, saying so in the way you have is usually counterproductive. Low-effort complaints drown out better quality commentary. In this way, your statements fail the "Is it necessary?" and "Is it kind?" tests for speech.
Failog4 votesIt not low effort I have been extrodinarly detailed in the past, only to get very little response.
For example, 3 years ago I complained about the cursor, since I am red green color blind (and color bind mode doesn't help me much) I am constantly losing sigh to the cursor because of the color scheme and the organic shape of the fist. I said that the cursor should have a sharp, non organic shape, such a a triangle and the user should be able to pick the color. This would make it pop against the organic background and colors.
Riot responded on here and said that even a small change like that takes a process and a committee etc. So I suffered for 3 years, losings matches that I shouldn't have because of failing in a team fight when I lose track way too easily of where my mouse is on the screen.
Three god damn years later they are now going to roll out a cursor which is exactly what I asked for. It took them THREE GOD DAMN YEARS. Fuck them.
Chermorg2 votesI would like to point out that, while I may very well be wrong, you are in no position to criticize Riot employees' skills. You are free to say that you do not think the game is balanced. You are free to say that you think they are not balancing it the way you would do so. The bottom line is they balance it good enough for 80+ million monthly players to still play the game (making it the number 1 video game played in the world, still). They have an immensely complex, complicated, multi-faceted, and hard job to do.
Imagine if I go to my pediatrician with my newborn and the pediatrician recommends a shot. I say I don't believe in it, let them give the shot anyway, then go complain about how incompetent the physician is because they recommended it. That makes no sense to the vast majority of people - physicians are those who study medicine, completed usually at least a decade of schooling for it including multiple years of practice.. and they know what they're doing. Sure, they make mistakes. They may accidentally nick a blood vessel during surgery and have to close it up. They may accidentally nick a high risk blood vessel during surgery and a patient dies. They do the best they can.
Likewise, many of those on the Gameplay (both Live and other) teams at Riot, as well as the Playtest teams, have been doing this for years if not decades. They know what they're doing, they know the way to critically think - not just about what a change will do to the directly affected champion, item, etc. but what it'll do to every other thing in the game. Do they miss the ball sometimes? Yes. Do they make changes that are overly cautious before making bigger changes later, where some people "knew" those big changes were needed? Yes.
It'll be quite snarky... but if you think you could do better, or know someone who can, Riot's hiring, and they give many starting people a 6 figure salary if qualified, as well as flex PTO, cash each year for games, and a multitude of other competitive benefits. Again, I know it sounds snarky... but there's literally nobody I know who, if qualified, wouldn't want to work for Riot. It's literally the dream job of many people - even more so than Apple, Google, and other big companies nowadays.
Failog3 votesImagine if I go to my pediatrician with my newborn and the pediatrician recommends a shot. I say I don't believe in it....
Yes, but imagine if you go to have surgery and they cut off or operate on the wrong body part, which does happen. You would say that the surgeon was incompetent.
"They do the best they can." That has nothing to with competency.
" They know what they're doing, they know the way to critically think " compared to what? MOBAS are new. If you look back at ANYTHING in the world, you will see how poorly things were done in new fields and industries that at the time seemed correct, but looking back we can see how shortsighted or inefficient it was.
"The bottom line is they balance it good enough for 80+ million monthly players to still play the game (making it the number 1 video game played in the world, still). They have an immensely complex, complicated, multi-faceted, and hard job to do."
This is a severely flawed statement for many reasons.
1)Many players are addicted to the game and keep playing. Initially, players don't know whats what. They lose a lot, they chalk up to being new. By the time the realize that there is a problem, they are addicted and their ego stubbornly plows forward trying to win despite it. Doesn't mean there isnt a problem. 2)Gamers love gaming and love playing something that is relevant. Just because players, for now, will accept the flaws so that they can play the game that has the most players, doesn't mean the game is good or even that they think the game is good. I for one, would quit League the second a similar MOBA has more players than League simply because I want to be playing whats relevant.
Chermorg1 votesI would not call a surgeon incompetent for one mistake in something that is a very complicated profession. That is absurd. I do not know a single doctor, pharmacist, nurse, any medical professional who's been working for years who hasn't made a single mistake. To think that it is possible to be perfect is actually the cause of many medical errors. There's a good article on this subject called To Err is Human.
The entirety of your post is based on this concept that you think it can be done better. You've provided no evidence for this claim, yet insist on calling them incompetent just because you think it can be done better. If it can be done better, prove it or do it yourself.
Failog2 votes"The entirety of your post is based on this concept that you think it can be done better"
All progress in civilization in any field is based on the concept that people think something can be done better.
What now?
Chermorg2 votesThe wheel has not been improved in shape for thousands of years. While it has been improved in size, material, width, the shape has stayed constant. That's because a circle is objectively the best that can be done for moving things across a surface.
Game balance, while immensely more complex, still does have a "best" solution. There is no problem in the world that does not have a best solution that can not be improved upon, no matter how hard people try. You have given no evidence that Riot is not at this best. Sure it's not perfect. But could they do better? How do you know?
Failog2 votesMOBAs have been around barely anytime compared to the wheel. What a nonsense argument.
How do I know? I play the game and it has become less fun over time. The point of the game is to have fun right? Competition is fun when you feel like the playing field is fair right?
I know they could do better because it WAS better. That is just for starters. I know it can be better because first blood turret shouldn't be an indicator that that team who got first blood has a 70% chance (making this number up, but number is very high) of winning that match.
I think it can be better if they don't leave burst assassins with 2 escapes and a massive aoe CC ult....
super strong all god damn season.
Shall I go on? The game blows right now.
Chermorg3 votesThere are also millions upon millions of players who've been having more fun over time.
It being better to you does not mean it is objectively better. I understand that human nature is to take your opinions and apply them to everyone. But you cannot say "I don't like it so the balance team is incompetent". Not only is that selfish, it's illogical.
Failog2 votesThere is no way to prove millions of players have been have more fun over time. Their fun could easily have been decreasing even if they keep playing.
Its not illogical. Many people share my opinion and this opinion didn't form over night, but from years of playing.
Chermorg3 votesAll people have asked you is to:
a) Provide proof that "many people" share that opinion, and
b) Provide evidence it could be done better (either by identifying better changes to make, etc) for everyone - not just you.
Failog2 votesFirst of all, I never came on here saying that other people share my opinion. I am stating that based and my experience with the game and what I have seen, that the balance team is incompetent. And often the design team.
I could give you tons of ways the game could be done better. Many talked about a lot online, on here, on reddit on youtube videos.
How about damage? How about first turret blood being such a big predictor of victory? How about assassins that have high reward but not high risk? How about games ending in 20 minutes? How about the lack of counter play because damage is so high. How about the ever growing complexity of newer champions which create a lot more unintended consequences and balance champions? How bout lethality, something that wasn't needed? Armor pen was just fine.
I don't have to provide evidence to YOU or a anyone to defend my opinion on this. I used to have fun, now I don't. Game has changed in the wrong direction.
Chermorg1 votesThis is exactly what you're being told. The boards are not the place for you to vent by insulting anyone, including Rioters.
If you want to have actual constructive discussion on the game, you're more than welcome to.
HalcyonDweller2 votesIf you were saying that the work was incompetent, you would have said, "This work is sub-par," or "this work sucks."
You didn't say that. You said, "they're incompetent at their job." It's not the same. It's a direct and personal attack on them and their right to make a living. Leave that shit out of the discussion, it won't accomplish anything except to make people ignore you more. And besides, it is irrelevant to the things you actually care about like champion balance states, reworks, the meta, etc.
Failog2 votesSure, if it was only on occasion that the work was sup par. But if they KEEP DOING IT, then they are literally incompetent at their job. And I keep seeing Riot make asinine decisions, so I am now assuming that they have a lot of incompetency at their company.
It has nothing to do with their right to making a living. How dare you even try to bring that into this discussion. Nor is it a personal attack.
And it is relevant to the things I care about. What are you even talking about?
HalcyonDweller2 votesIt has nothing to do with their right to making a living. How dare you even try to bring that into this discussion. Nor is it a personal attack.
When you question somebody's competence at their job, it is implicit that you are questioning their right to do that job.
And it is relevant to the things I care about. What are you even talking about?
I'm saying that discussions about incompetence are irrelevant to the problems you actually care about. Aatrox, the meta, game balance.... If you want those problems fixed then talk about those problems, don't waste your time bringing up the subject of whether or not the people working on those things deserve to be working on them or not. That will only drive them away from your discussion, ensuring that they don't read any of your actual ideas.
Sure, if it was only on occasion that the work was sup par. But if they KEEP DOING IT, then they are literally incompetent at their job. And I keep seeing Riot make asinine decisions, so I am now assuming that they have a lot of incompetency at their company.
As others pointed out, accusations of incompetence suggest that someone else could do the job better. If you really think things could be done better then go apply for work at Riot, get involved, fix the problems, or fund a scholarship program at universities that teach good game design. Don't try to be an armchair developer if you're going to say things to make the real developers defensive. Either you're trying to be heard, or you're just burning bridges. You can have one, not both. So pick.
Failog2 votes"When you question somebody's competence at their job, it is implicit that you are questioning their right to do that job." No, they every every RIGHT to be hired by that employer. I am questioning if they are GOOD at their job.
I am not moving on past this point. You are wrong. I will be happy to respond to the rest of your reply, but I can not until you address this point. Criticizing someones competence literally has NOTHING to with their legal right to be employed in that position. If you can admit that you are factually wrong here, I can address the other points. But not until you own up to your own illogical statement.
HalcyonDweller1 votesAlright mate, I see what happened here. I'm talking about how it will be received. You're talking in terms of how you talk about it overall. I tried to talk in your terms while still referring to how it would be received and it got lost in translation.
My bad.
Here's what I'm trying to say:
When you call into question the competency of an individual, they will almost invariably view that as a personal attack. It won't matter if you wrap perfectly valid feedback up with it too, because when they see that personal attack, they will stop taking you seriously, and most likely will stop reading. If you want your feedback to be heard, you should be trying to give feedback in terms of the actual game, not in terms of who's working on it and if they are the right person to do that.
Nothing shuts down a conversation about progress faster than announcing your position as an enemy of the person whom you want to listen. And Riot stands by their devs, so criticizing CT when it's not reasonable or necessary to do so is going to turn them off of your posts just as fast as it would turn him off your posts.
Failog2 votesBut its not a personal attack as in I have something against them PERSONALLY. I am critical of their competency and skill at a particular job. There are many jobs that you, me or anyone could find themselves in and be not suited for it. And that has to do with competency.
Look mate, I have been patience for years. I have laid out detail criticism and suggestion on these boards only to be met with deaf ears by Riot. Why should I keep trying? If they don't understand why what they are doing is ruining the game they are either stupid or incompetent.
FOR EXAMPLE. Years ago I complained about the cursor. I wrote on the boards that because of the nature of my red green color blindness I literally can not see the cursor, even in color blind mode. It cost me many games and still fucks me up. I suggested that players be allowed to pick the color and the shape should be precise and non organic so it stands out against the background and characters.
A Rioter responded, and said that its not a simple thing to change and it has to go through a committee (yes he used the word committee). 3 years later, they are looking at changing it to nearly exactly what I said (triangular shape).
Should I go on? These are not complicated changes and having a good interface is basic shit. Should have been done a long time ago. Why wasn't it? Who is making the decision, how to they prioritize?
Who decided to let Tank Ekko exist for half a season despite it being beyond broken?
The list goes on of bad decisions and failures. So I have concluded they must be incompetent.
HalcyonDweller1 votesIt comes down to the point of your arguments. Is your point to accuse them of being incompetent or is it to get the things you care about fixed?
And just because they rarely comment does not mean they don't read. You cannot reasonably expect them to comment when you know that a large number of people will pile on them for even showing their face.
Failog1 votesI never see them comment on the myriad of posts right now about damage being high. Not once.
HalcyonDweller1 votesIt has probably been discussed in Quick Gameplay Thoughts somewhere down the line, here's the link if you genuinely care about the truth instead of just about winning an argument.
Failog2 votes"As others pointed out, accusations of incompetence suggest that someone else could do the job better. If you really think things could be done better then go apply for work at Riot, get involved, fix the problems, or fund a scholarship program at universities that teach good game design. Don't try to be an armchair developer if you're going to say things to make the real developers defensive. Either you're trying to be heard, or you're just burning bridges. You can have one, not both. So pick."
Wrong. To have this world view you would have to be content to never criticize anything in life. Let say you criticize the oil industry. Do you know fuck all about oil or its extraction? Are you going to change career to learn about? No. Does that mean you can't criticize the results you see? Of course not. You have every right to judge based on the results and outcome of ANYTHING IN LIFE.
Its utterly absurd that you and people like you put this requirement on anyone who criticizes Riot.
HalcyonDweller2 votesIt's more about putting yourself in their shoes. People who wish harm or loss of employment on others are rarely willing to consider things from the point of view of the person they're complaining about. That's my problem with this whole line of reasoning.
Failog1 votesNice dodge. But I obliterated your argument already. Now are you just rambling about things that aren't try, that my statements must imply that I wish harm or loss of employment. What I wish is for Riot to put the right people in charge of the right things.
HalcyonDweller1 votesIt wasn't a dodge. Don't be a manipulative wise-ass. Holy shit the ego present in the first 2 sentences of that comment is enough to crush a mountain. If you're going to act like a piece of crap then fuck this shit I'm out.
Failog1 votesThe only people who can't stand someone with a large ego is someone with a large ego themselves.
HalcyonDweller1 votesOh wow, real mature. I can see that you have every intention of continuing to act like a piece of crap, so we're done here. Peace.
Failog1 votesWhat I just said is a universally true statement. Its neither mature nor immature, and if you stop to think about it, you will realize its true.
redniwediS8 votesYou can write your feelings down without insulting an entire group of people. Just because the balance team isn't doing something you personally like doesn't mean they are incompetent.
Do not post content intended to insult, belittle, disrespect, or intentionally offend other community members as individuals or as groups.
Literally quoted from the Board rules, so I'm not sure why you're surprised about the deleted post.
Failog2 votesInsult them? They seem incompetent. How else can I say that? Its not an insult. I am literally suggesting that they might not have the skill and talent needed for the jobs they are in. Not sure how else to express that point of view.
redniwediS4 votesOf course it's an insult. Regardless of whether or not it's accurate, saying someone is incompetent is always an insult. There's no other way to take it than as an insult.
I am literally suggesting that they might not have the skill and talent needed for the jobs they are in
And that is literally an insult for anyone who works a job to the best of their ability. Validity does not change it to anything else.
You can question their actions, question their decision making, question their design philosophy, but when you question their viability as developers you're making things personal, and that is when you cross the line.
Failog1 votesJust because someone works to the best of their ability doesn't mean they can't be incompetent. It just means that they are in above their head. Its NOT personal. That's what you people don't seem to understand. I am literally questioning whether the people on the balance team have the skills and talent necessary.
redniwediS3 votesI didn't say the two are mutually exclusive, what I said is the person working will and should take it as an insult.
All I'm saying is it's an insult. There is literally no other way for someone to take that comment. That is what you need to understand. Your criticism of what they are doing does not require you to comment on something you don't actually understand, which is their level of competence. Leave your assumptions behind and you could actually write a decent critique of their actions.
Failog2 votesYes there is. If you build me a fence and its crooked, I could say that you are incompetent at fence building. Am I personally insulting you? No. I am stating the fact that you don't have competency in fence building. Everyone is incompetent in some area of life. Its not an insult.
If you buy a house with a crooked cabinets, yet you dont know the first think about remodeling or cabinet installation, are you not allowed think that the work is incompetent? Of course you are.
I dont need to know everything about behind the scenes Riot to know that the end product is starting to suck. What a ridiculous requirement you imposed there.
redniwediS3 votesIf you build me a fence and its crooked, I could say that you are incompetent at fence building. Am I personally insulting you?
Yes. That's what you're not understanding here. Your "fact" is also an insult. It can be both. If you were stating a fact you would be commenting on the end result and the product you were given. You're commenting on the nature of the person who did it, and that is why it's an insult.
This is the detail you're not getting. It's not about what you're saying, it's about how you're saying it. You could say the exact same thing without insulting the person but you're choosing not to. It's the difference between saying "this fence is poor craftsmanship" and "you are a poor craftsman". You're not saying the devs are displaying poor craftsmanship here, you're insulting them personally.
I dont need to know everything about behind the scenes Riot to know that the end product is starting to suck. What a ridiculous requirement you imposed there.
You're assuming they are incompetent. You have no actual proof, and are basing this assumption off your own game preferences. League isn't a product designed to fill a realistic function. It's not a cabinet or a fence where there is an objective good and bad to it's craftsmanship.
League is a game designed to be fun, and different people find different things to be fun. Some people do not enjoy the game in it's current state, and others do. Your assumption that they are incompetent is your opinion more than it is a fact.
Failog2 votesNo. The fact is not an insult. YOU perceive it as an insult, but you are wrong. That is like saying its insulting to tell someone they have a booger on their nose.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO SAY IT. I THINK THEY HAVE INCOMPETENCE IN THEIR RANKS.
My proof is the end end result. I am the customer, and I am no longer satisfied. Their number one job, as is the job of any business is to satisfy the customer.
You have no point. This is how I feel, and this is how I express it. Get off your high horse and stop telling people how they should communicate.
redniwediS1 votesYou can't just say things and then get mad when people take them the wrong way. Words have meaning, and using them wrong can give them a meaning other than your intent.
The way you are saying it makes it an insult.
Failog2 votesThere is no other way to saw what I mean. I think they are incompetent at their jobs. YOU want me to sugar coat it and not say it directly. You should be a politician.
redniwediS1 votesI don't want you to sugar coat it, and want you to understand the difference between poor craftsmanship and a poor craftsman, because that distinction appears to be going over your head.
One is an insult, the other is not, and you're using the insult for both.
Failog2 votesIf a craftsman messes up once in a while, its just a one off, and you can call it poor craftsmanship or a mistake. However, if he messes up regularly for years, hes a shitty craftsman.
I didn't just wake up with my conclusion about Riot. It has taken me years of watching what they do and playing the game to realize that their mistakes are not one offs. Hence they don't just make mistakes, they are incompetent.
LadyNinjaFox2 votesI said
"It sounds like you guys have no fucking clue as to what are you doing. Hire competent people please so the players don't have to be jerked around every season"
And that IS what it sounds like to ME. And I do feel like I get jerked around every season.
Ridiculous that you would delete the comment.
season 6 onward has sucked hard.
Packun Flower2 votesi got a post deleted on another account for laughing at a funny meme in Memes snd games.
Me: "Hahaha. I remember seeing this meme during a gaming event. Still funny as hell today"
-Post deleted. warning issued-
Your post was deleted because you were trolling.
-Periscope
love you Periscope. your doing gods work. [slayer-jinx-catface]
ModPeriscope2 votesIf you’ve an issue regarding a deletion, make your own thread regarding the matter.
