Lets Theorycraft with Bard!

MrBuffington·Feb 24, 2015·1 votes·3,452 views

With Bard being revealed, I want to hear some of your ideas for strategies and other tips/tricks you can think of just from looking at his kit so far. Obviously things will change as more is revealed, but so far his kit has a lot of cool and unique spells that look like they'll have a lot of uses. His ult in particular looks like it'll take a lot of skill and coordination to use to maximum effectiveness, and I think there are a lot of cool plays you can do.

Here's a couple I was thinking of:

If an enemy follows you through your E, you can spin around and Q stun them to a wall
You can ult objectives like Dragon or Baron to give your jungler time to get in position to steal them
Alternatively, you can ult the enemy jungler so they cannot secure the objective

As far as itemization, I think he'll favor the Talisman line for support items, since this will give him movement speed to roam more effectively; not sure about the rest of his build, though he seems very utility focused.

If I had to guess about skill order, it'd be R>W>Q>E:

Maxing ult first is standard
W seems very potent for setting up healing for your laners and junglers; being able to heal your laners more effectively also allows you to roam more effectively
E feels like a 1 point wonder type of spell; Q is also your only damage ability, though your autos seem like they can be very potent so it doesn't seem completely necessary to max Q first.

What you you guys think? Agree/Disagree with what I said? Let me know! I personally am very excited for Bard, I love roaming on support (one of the reasons I love Janna, the MS is so great), and have been wanting utility focused support with sustain (Sona is more damage focused and extremely squishy; Soraka is almost entirely focused on healing; Taric is still pending rework)

EDIT: More info on Bard: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/224-pbe-update-2-bard.html

Not sure about the skill order anymore; the heal on W is useful, though since it's ramping, it might still be sufficient to max second; the Q damage and utility seems too good to hold off on. Might still depend on his playstyle, since if he's not sitting in a lane and providing pressure, it might be better to offer massive heals while roaming around?

36 Comments

ActualPainFeb 25, 20152 votes

This was something I had thought about before Bard even, but switching the mid and ADC sounds like a great idea to me. For example, a Syndra bot has the range and CC to safely farm and trade in a 2v1 lane, and a Draven mid can farm early and use his oppressive early power to bully the opposing mid. The Bard would start in bot lane but would obviously roam as much as possible. Even without Bard, I think switching the traditional APC mid with the ADC bot is a viable strat that should be explored.

Death Knight 777Feb 24, 20151 votes

I can see kind of the pre update soraka king of mid. Like before her rework she could mid and top and it was quite viable but now shes primarily support. Im excited to see him mid tho with interesting builds poissibly maximizing his passve and heals its going to be interesting glad you are excited about him too!

MrBuffingtonFeb 24, 20151 votes

I think whether or not he can mid lane really depends on his cooldowns and the power of his Q; he only has one damage ability, as oppose to pre-rework Soraka, not to mention old Soraka's starcall was on a super short cooldown and could shred resistances. Being bound to mid lane also gimps his roaming ability, though mid makes more sense than say, top or adc, lol. Jungler might also be possible, but his clear might be too weak.

Death Knight 777Feb 24, 20151 votes

Yea good points should be interesting to see what people do with him he seems really interesting to me i think i have a new main going through all of the bard related forums gathering up what I can lol

MrBuffingtonFeb 24, 20151 votes

Yea, haha, I can't wait for his release, I want to know more about him; alas he isn't out on PBE yet...

DrCyanideFeb 24, 20151 votes

I think, if possible, he'll scatter healing pads in the jungle as he roams. It would help out the jungler/other roamers if on his own side, and be a nice saftey/backup plan if roaming in the enemy jungle. It'll be interesting to see if these pads give vision too (I doubt they will).

One thing to consider is how Bard will change the bot lane. With only one person in lane most of the time, the solo bot is going to level faster than the enemy ADC/Support. This could open up situations where the ADC is actually mid (such as a Corki, Ezreal, maybe Jayce) while the mage is bot (since they're more likely to have the CC/AoE to deal with the 2v1).

MrBuffingtonFeb 24, 20151 votes

I'm also interested if the pads have any sort of time limit on them, or if they are permanent until picked up. I imagine the typical drive-by roam where Bard just slows/stuns the enemy laner while dropping off a health pack near your turret before continuing on his way.

That's a good point about experience distribution, I hadn't thought about the ADC leveling quicker, though I think it's still more beneficial to have your mage/assassin in mid lane, since the minions get there quicker and it's a shorter lane.

DrCyanideFeb 24, 20151 votes

Regardless of who goes bot, you're going to want to consider that they'll have to hold their own.

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20151 votes

Yea, I assume Bard is going to play like a standard support and either have to get their ADC fed to a degree where they can 1v2 or just pick really opportune times to roam

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

i can just see this guy helping jungler, he auto attacks the jungle to help with clears, drops a shrine to help top up the jungler, then he drops a portal and he and jungler gank mid, im really likin this guy's team potential

Leti the YetiFeb 25, 20151 votes

We can move ADC's who usually need a support to hold their hand top lane~~(oh wait we already do)~~ they should be okay surviving 1 v 1s

and move the top laner ~~by top laner I mean Garen or Maokai, cuz everyone else would die alone in bot lane~~ down to bot lane :D

StephenizgodFeb 25, 20151 votes

See this is what i was thinking is that with Bard you dont technically need a Marksmen bot lane. You go for maybe a high CC Mage or even a tanky high CC Tank. You come back to lane put some health shrines around the turret and try to help push them off so they can farm then roam mid and gank with your jungler, meanwhile leaving health shrines around Buffs for your jungler.

I wonder how many shrines you can have and how long they last. His ult seems really fun but i think you can troll really hard with it too.

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

i think the key thing is whoever is laning alone is ideally self sufficient. top is like this since both are away from towers, hence good sustain and/or tankiness required. that or REALLY good vision control, like caitlyn and kalista

StephenizgodFeb 25, 20152 votes

I think Kalista is not a good choice to Solo lane, she is incredibly squishy by herself and her dashes are pretty small at first, not to mention the loss of damage from her Oathsworn. Ezreal would probably be a decent choice, he has good farming capabilities and his blink+flash give him great mobility and safety.

OrisiFeb 25, 20151 votes

Important point I figured I'd drop here as it's the first one I've bothered to comment on;

There's no evidence at the moment Bard has any self-heal.

His chimes offer mana experience and movement speed but NOT health.

His W also specifically states allied champions, which does not necessarily include himself being able to use his own shrines.

Like the said, they DONT want another Alistar. The easiest way to gate this is to give reasonable scaling on his Q and Passive, and deny him self-healing. It doesn't Impact his utility but does impact his solo potential both laning and jungling which is exactly what they're going for.

There's also something I'd like to know RE his E portal; is it a click-to-use or trigger passively by walking through? I want to know if I can FORCE the enemy through one with a knock back like Comdemn.

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20152 votes

His W works on himself; I think Meddler confirmed this, check the redtracker

OrisiFeb 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

His W works on himself; I think Meddler confirmed this, check the redtracker

You are in fact correct, I missed that particular post among the DJ Sona spam.

Which is a shame because now he's never going to see support play with that sustain in the jungle. Damn. I think they missed a trick there to be frank in gating his utility to prevent him from being insanely viable jungle or solo.

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20151 votes

haha yea, Q&As, as wonderfully informative as they are, are a nightmare for tracking down posts on the redtracker

His clear seems like it'd be kind of rough though, since his autos need time to charge and he only has one damage spell, that hits only two units.

TakanuvaFeb 26, 20151 votes

some guy named stonewall actaully did a first jungle clear with the guy. hes got pretty good sustain with his w, but between his occasionally empowered autoattacks and his weak 2 target only spell, its a slow clear. he actually sustains pretty well, just don't expect a gank or fast clear anytime soon

MrBuffingtonFeb 26, 20151 votes

Yea I've seen that video, honestly though it seems jungle in general is in a pretty bad state right now because of continued nerfs that don't really seem to have their intended effect; hopefully upcoming tank jungler buffs will help with diversity, but we'll see

TakanuvaFeb 27, 20151 votes

well, id say changes over nerfs, people do talk about jungle being harder(and ive had a harder time with it) but now there is actaul thinking with it, smiting different camps and such. someone did mention quill coat and the like being a godsend for tank jungle, but i honestly think tank jungle is still there, its just people only play whats seen in lcs, furthermore, you have to buy different machetes depending on what your doing. now, you have to choose between sustain in jungle, or dueling potential, or extra ganking potential. even if they are "nerfs" i think its in the right direction. besides, it could be a buff, and we just dont realize it. and there is a wide variety of junglers, just check the higher elos, people really need to expand and try different things. i know my jungling is subpar, but theres still lots of good options, just gotta plan out what your going to do. people just miss the old days where jungle was easy, and was just gold and exp, now; thinking is required, and though i have to work harder, i do like these changes, though i have to practice jungling again, it really is a state of mind, ganks farming objectives and such. and hey, buy a potion or two, its alot more help than you realize :D, not everything is about early game, it can make a difference, but ive came back from bad starts. and i mean REALLY bad starts

MrBuffingtonFeb 27, 20151 votes

Oh yea, jungle is still playable, and I think it's headed in a good direction long term, but the short term balance changes are making it a lot more difficult imo

TakanuvaFeb 28, 20151 votes

not more difficult, just different. Shaco , most people dont try things for themselves, but once someone figures out the best way, tanks and such, theyll do them, and everyone else will catch on, btw, you seem like a decent guy to play with. i kinda suck, but would you like to play some games together? my ign is Takanuva, i can play any position except adc, i can jungle, but i need the practice summoner 11

EDIT: apparently, theyve changed junggernaut, now its 350 health and deals out a sunfire-esque aura, and the complete item has 25% extra bonus max health, plus gromp poison damage scales with health, the only bad part, its same passive as sunfire, so you cant buy sunfire and the "improved" sunfire aura. shame, i was looking forward to all that aoe dot, :(

MrBuffingtonFeb 28, 20151 votes

Truth be told I don't jungle too much, but Nightblue3 is one of my favorite streamers, and most of my opinion about jungle is informed by him. The changes that just popped up on PBE seem promising though

I just sent you a request (I stopped accepting random requests because of the spam bots, and I'm pretty bad at remembering names so I just sent you one preemptively) I actually don't play the game too much right now though (I'm more interested in really breaking down and understanding the game rather than becoming good at it myself; when I am playing it's usually either to grind IP via first win bonus vs bots, testing/practicing in a single player custom game, or playing ranked solo q).

TakanuvaFeb 28, 20151 votes

cool, and i did get your request, :o), god i hate spambots, dont worry, i wont send you any offers for lolacedemy, or stuff like that. i do my research and stuff, but i mainly play the game for fun, though i do try to be decent. it is possible to get platinum and stuff, but man, the amount of housekeeping you have to do JUST to be viable, its nuts, id rather play and hope i dont feed too bad. sounds terrible, but it is a game. Shaco

MrBuffingtonFeb 28, 20151 votes

Yea, i'm just more interested in the strategy than actually getting my rank up or whatever

TakanuvaFeb 28, 20151 votes

hence forth, bard, the roaming support, now we're really gonna shred the meta now :o)

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

heres my theorcraft for his item set: item 3069 item 3117 item 3056 item 3800 item 2045 item 3512

i feel with him roaming, this gives him great sustain, as well as good movespeed stats, and nice actives. this makes him decidely tanky, though not unkillable. one of these can be traded out for maybe a rod or something, since he does have ap ratioss on his "empowered" auto attack, (.3), as well as .2-.45 on his shrine, and .25? on his q, though theyre kinda low, so ap is luxury to me. also, ohmwrecker plus his ult means you have a dead tower for 5-6 seconds, this with righteous glory active and he can lock down, but this is just me. btw, id run 4/5/21, the 4 is in cd, total this gives you 10% cdr, as well as lower cd on activated items. like i said, ap items could substitute ANY of these, but this makes him squishy. id sleep better make him a mobile, tanky disrupter, but as ive said, this is only theorycrafting. one last thing, all these items are decidely cheap, so a full 6-slot isnt out of the question, though i wouldnt count on it. be warned that his "core", talisman, mobis, and sightstone may make him a tad squishy, but he should be alright with his high ms and his q if hit right

Edit: talisman helps him with the gold, hes gotta have something while hes visiting lanes, right?, also, apologies for the wall of text

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20152 votes

Yea I'm kind of split between talisman and frost queens though, honestly. For some reason frost queens is in his recommended items, which I guess since it just gives gold generation without having to be in lane, it might be better than coin, though at the same time you're losing out in a lot of mobility.

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yea I'm kind of split between talisman and frost queens though, honestly. For some reason frost queens is in his recommended items, which I guess since it just gives gold generation without having to be in lane, it might be better than coin, though at the same time you're losing out in a lot of mobility.

you're not wrong. however, it does sport some ap, granted hit ratios are really low, but i guess you get something for it. what i did notice was he was poking with his autoattacks as well, i do wonder what his range on his aa is. however, the damage is VERY small, im with you on the coin too. :o), if you REALLY need ap, grab a item 3089 , hell, if you need ap, GRAB ALL OF IT, but thats just if you want decent heal and poke?

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20151 votes

From what I can tell it's a standard 550 range on his autos, but I might be off since his character model is larger. He feels kind of like a Lulu in that a lot of his harass/damage actually comes from his auto attacks and not so much from his spells (though Lulu gets a ton of damage from her spells). His autos get really powerful after a while, but it takes a while collecting chimes to get to that (I'd say around 30 chimes before he really starts to pick up). His power budget is overly skewed towards his ult (it has a very long range and is incredibly useful), which is sort of unfortunate since it's a difficult skill to use well.

EDIT: I was off; he actually only has 500 range on his autos, which is a bit strange imo. I guess I overcompensated for the model size

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

yeah, he has ap ratios, but theyre just there, more chimes=better autos, better autos=more pressure. what better way to collect chimes than through mobi boots, talisman, and runes and masteries with ms bonuses. hes a roaming support after all, why not make him really good at it?. sure, he could be tanky and give decent inlane sustain with item 3401 and item 3047 , or make him with eh ap and poke with item 3092 and item 3020 , but hell, hes got alot of great tools that dont require alot of item stats (what makes a support a good support im my opinion), GIVE THE MAN SOME MAP PRESENCE!!!, btw, if its worth saying, he occasionally pokes with aa right?, would a item 3087 be out of the question? it gives ms, and if hes gonna poke with an aa every now and then, why not make it hurt like a REAL autoattack?

edit: btw, about his power budget, i feel his ult is really an empowered ability of his entire kit, utility, hes got heals he can drop off, good poke than can STUN, and a portal that can make even karthus a mobile guy, you might think his ult has alot of power, and it does, rightfully so; after all, thats what an ult is supposed to be, a game changer. btw, i feel like he would make great use of summoner 4 and summoner 12 , he is a support, but he is a ROAMING support, from what i see. in that sense, item 3273 would be a godsend; 20% less on these two spells WITH ms steroids? count me in. i really like this guy, he can really make use of off the wall items and builds. i will say though, ms does have soft caps, so maybe im going a bit overboard with the ms bonuses

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20151 votes

I was actually thinking about taking ghost on him since he could benefit a lot from it

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

ghost would be good too, i figure he has enough ms steroids already, but ghost is definitely an option, distortion would also still be good, since you'd be packing a summoner 4 and summoner 6 , or summoner 12 and if you REALLY want to get around, btw, would item 3060 be a good item for him? i really like the active, and it gives ap. not alot, but its something.

MrBuffingtonFeb 25, 20151 votes

Not sure, he's pretty much pure utility so it could be a good item?

TakanuvaFeb 25, 20151 votes

im building him with meh tank stats, good ms, and nice actives, i make his masteries 4/5/21, max cdr on items/summoners, and ms with gold regen and such, i feel that items such as item 3060 and item 3512 have great actives, and are great for guys that need survivabilty but want to exert map presence. like you said, hes got great utility. i am kinda partial to summons actives though, so maybe im just wanting to see these items used :o)