Community Patch Recap - 5.17

RiotJawstheMusical·Sep 10, 2015·23 votes·115,386 views

After the massive 5.16 Juggernaut patch, we get a bit of a break (5.17 focuses on fine-tuning several champions) before the Worlds patch right around the corner.

Want to know how these changes affect your game? TheAngryHoneyBadger and LoLClass are here to catch you up.

LoLClass - Patch 5.17 Pro Patch Breakdown ft. Bjergsen, Santorin, and Amazing

LoLClass has top professionals from Team Solomid and Origen weigh in on how certain champions are affected by the patch.

TheAngryHoneyBadger - Patch 5.17 in One Minute

TheAngryHoneyBadger gives his take on the 5.17 tweaks to LoL in exactly one minute!

Want more info about Patch 5.17?
Read the official patch notes here if you haven't already or take a look at the Patch 5.17 rundown:

5.17 Patch Rundown - Almost Worlds ft. ZionSpartan

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What champion do you think benefitted the most from 5.17’s changes? Let us know in the comments below!

205 Comments

Archbishop SquidSep 10, 201550 votes

I am honestly so mad that they keep nerfing Azir. I don't even play him that often, but the fact that they keep peeling away what made him good at all is painful to watch. First they completely destroy his E making the shield weaker, the knockup literally nonexistent, and the whole use of that ability (escapes) null. Then they go and nerf his Q so that it doesn't deal additional damage past the first soldier? WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING ADDITIONAL SOLDIERS THEN? I understand that you can still attack with these multiple soldiers at the same time, but really? You honestly felt like Azir, of all people, needed further nerfing? I also understand that this sounds super ranty, but you're pushin' my buttons, Riot. First with the further breaking of champions like Darius who didn't need to be any more broken, then with the THIS. ugh. Anyone else have similar or different opinions? I'm honestly interested to see if I'm the only one who sees it this way.

VoydHunterSep 11, 201524 votes

I agree. I think they nerfed him him based purely on pro gameplay thus making him even more inaccessible to less skilled players. I think so many champs needed nerfs more than azir.

TheSaltWhispererSep 11, 201511 votes

When you're looking at a game like League that has a pro gaming industry, you HAVE to look at the pro gameplay. There's no reason to look at lower ELOs unless something is truly game breaking.

Baaad JujuSep 11, 20159 votes

Agreed, Pro's/high elo players are the people who have accessed the full potential of a champions kit, therefor are efficient sources of information when trying to discern unhealthy gameplay patterns. Pro's are always looking to get an edge, even if that means using champions that might simply be better than others cough AP soraka top lane(pre rework) cough

HomeMadeGravySep 11, 20159 votes

At the same time they have to be careful. If they push their mid/low tier players away from the game (the majority) the pro scene wont matter from a low fan base. Not saying an azir nerf will ruin the community, but that they cant base nerfs only on pro

DeathByWaffleSep 11, 20158 votes

Azir is a hard champion, and that balances him out in the lower levels of play. But in the higher ranks, where the skill of the player becomes less questionable, he is disproportionately powerful. The nerfs he's received so far has helped tone him down, but a good Azir is still a nightmare.

yipdippSep 10, 201541 votes

The maokai nerfs are unnecessary as Santorin stated. Maokai does not deserve to die to juggernauts. At least make the cd like a 10 sec difference instead of a 20 sec

DemacrexSep 11, 201521 votes

{quoted}

The maokai nerfs are unnecessary as Santorin stated. Maokai does not deserve to die to juggernauts. At least make the cd like a 10 sec difference instead of a 20 sec

In my opinion, if they're going to keep his ult CDR so long, give him back the unlimited amount of time using his ult as long as you have mana, early game he won't be using it super long anyways cause mana costs, and if he decides to use it late game he has to plan to use it smarter because it's a longer CDR now. If not unlimited at least change it so it lasts more than ten seconds, twenty would be a better improvement imo.

RiotFeralPonySep 11, 201510 votes

60 second cooldown on an ultimate is pretty reasonable imo. The most important thing is that there is an available window for opponents to respond and we felt this reliability and consistent ultimate availability was part of why he was a such a safe pick into a wide variety of matchups.

We targeted this CD nerf to be a nerf that is very focused for professional play. His general performance after the patch saw almost no change (less than amount we normally account for statistical noise), and we'd expect him to go up a slight amount as we bring down some of the recently overpowered top laners like Fiora and GP. Top lane has been shaken up quite a bit recently and if he's not in a good place after the dust settles, we're very happy to revisit him.

KeevalroySep 12, 201522 votes

We targeted this CD nerf to be a nerf that is very focused for professional play.

You have no idea how angry this sentence made me.

Edit: And now I'm starting to be downvoted by the mindless white knights. Continue to support these idiotic, hypocritical, dishonest, and flat out unfair decisions, just understand that you're part of the problem while you do it.

Voluug13Sep 12, 20155 votes

Cant have Mao surviving LC$PLAY$ in toplane that often, right?

clamyboy19Sep 12, 20154 votes

Yes, Professional play. Meanwhile I'm in silver and I used to play maokai all the time until they nerfed him, for "Professional Play".

KhaoticKhymeraSep 13, 20155 votes

I completely agree with you Keev. "focused for professional play" is not a phrase that needs to come out of any riot employees mouth. The "pro player base" is not the only player base, and riot needs to acknowledge the other million players. Its pathetic at best.

xelxsixSep 14, 20152 votes

i like that you stopped reading after just that sentence and completely disregarded that there hasn't been a change to his win/loss rate across the rest of play. SMH

KeevalroySep 14, 201511 votes

The thing is I didn't stop reading after that, it's the fact that they are considering this change for the sake of the impact of the pro scene is what pisses me off. The pro scene should not impact our games whatsoever. Something is strong in the LCS while being in an okay spot in our filthy pleb games? Why the fuck would it get nerfed? If they pros think it's too strong in the LCS, then tough shit, ban it. Why are we punished for the pro scene, and more importantly, how doesn't Riot see what they're doing?

Flashy playmakers are constantly being sheltered from the nerf bat, and it's glaringly obvious who the balance team wants to see in games. They balance on a whim regardless of what they claim. When they don't like something, it's nerfed so it isn't played anymore. How am I supposed to believe anything Riot says in regard to balance? Phreak in his infinite contradictions waltzed into a thread a while back to defend Lee Sin (being a good little shoutcaster protecting the posterchild for playmaking) and insisted that pros don't pick what's broken, they pick what's fun. In that same thread, said they picked Soraka and Janna mid because they were bullshit... ??????? So...they're not fun for you guys, so they're bullshit. Aaaalllrighty then.

There are so many problems that need addressed and haven't been for the sake of the balance of professional matches. That's disgusting. Riot knows damn well what the problems are, and have done next to nothing about them because they want each huge balance patch to bring something fresh and exciting to the LCS. And if the balance team doesn't feel something is fresh or exciting anymore, they're gutted to oblivion.

We saw that with tanks this season. When Cinderhulk was released, yes, it was too strong, but after it was nerfed a bit and some of the outliers like Sej and Gragas got hit, what happened? We saw the most viable champions and the most healthy meta we've had in years! Almost every game was different, YORICK of all champions was picked in the LCS. The issue? The balance team didn't like tanks ruining the potential of LCS Big Plays and they were shafted with further nerfs and buffs to certain playmakers to keep them down. Then Sated Bullshit was brought about to further hinder tanks, and finally, after suffering through all of that, we have a glimmer of hope that they'll be back, but nope, juggernauts happened and armor was nerfed. Thanks a lot.

They pay far too much attention to the pros when they balance, and it's much more than they'd like to believe. You can be a white knight and say "Uh but it's their game, they can balance how they want," but that is a cheap excuse for defending rampant lies and contradicting reasoning. These last few patches they have all but admitted to balancing to the pro scene with these balance changes, and in a player focused company, that should never ever happen.

Riftl0lWalkerSep 14, 20153 votes

This. This is exactly what RITO needs to friggen read...wait they probably did, then ignored it, big surprise. Because if it doesn't change the pro scene, eff it. I never EVER watch the LCS, and why should I? Why would I wanna watch what is Rito's motivation for bringing "balance" changes to the game that are way off the radar of what people want!? Listen: MOST OF THE PLAYER BASE IS NOT PRO, OR NEAR PRO, SO STOP PAYING SO MUCH GOD DAMN ATTENTION TO THE PRO SCENE. The pro players could still make plenty of big plays despite champions in LoL being balanced for the non-competitive scene.

I'm not sure how they should balance it for the non-competitive scene, but they should start doing it because it's the only reason that I get mad as hell whenever I see a champ that is likely too strong. Is Darius broken? Nah, he's just quite strong right now and reks nearly anyone and everyone in the early game due to the Q heal, among other things. But it's a problem because in the bronze scene, no one asks for help because they're either feeling toxic or depressed or just don't want to play the game anymore because they know that due to the game's mechanics, Darius will snowball and probably kill the jungler/mid laners when they come to help.

While I can never make these posts about unfair patches to lower ELO players express how I feel exactly because I can't think of everything, I think EVERYONE should encourage Riot games to stop ALWAYS looking at the higher ELO and pro scene, because they sure as hell are RARELY, if AT ALL, looking at the bronze to gold scene. I'm not assuming everyone in those ELO's are bad, because people above and below gold ELO are bad and sometimes make you wonder how they even got to the ELO they're currently in.

Also Riot should nerf SUPER snowbally champs because they're bullsh** in lower ELO's, nerf them so they're FAIR, not UNPLAYABLE.

Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait and see what Riot does, because they obviously refuse to listen to the communities ask for smart/good changes.

TL;DR Riot MUST pay attention to the lower ELO scene, less they risk losing players, and it's easily possible, because while people (me included) are stupid, most will eventually wise up and change.

Edit: Oh and white knights, rito laughs at you while they count your money your spent on this game, I KNOW they do.

zaroyallordSep 10, 201516 votes

I am glad they are paying attention to Bard

EcodeathSep 10, 20158 votes

#LC$BIGPLAYS

RiotFeralPonySep 11, 20155 votes

Yay! Bard

NimmerSep 10, 201515 votes

Why is Mordekaiser still in the game? Can we at least get five bans per team, please? I want to ban so many champs these days.

A LiberalSep 10, 201512 votes

Gotta love those lux buffs, glad to know shes becoming a riven level noob stomper (◕‿◕✿)

takamura mamoruSep 10, 20156 votes

Okay I know you like the Lux buff but please you cant say riven takes no skill there are multiple combos to learn and to out play your oppenents

A LiberalSep 10, 20157 votes

Never said she didn't take skill, I just said that in low elo's (Such as my trashy silver 5), shes hell. Once you pick up her basic combos, shes very slippery and can do insane amounts of damage and get fed unless you are able to counter play her properly (which is something that doesn't happen in low elo). People in low elo who don't play riven don't know how to work against her and as such shes extremely powerful. In high elo shes pretty balanced.

Much in the same way, Lux at higher elo is very easily outplayable but at low elo nobody ever even bothers to dodge her skillshots and she can instakill people.

FantasySniperSep 10, 20152 votes

-> Pretty balanced in high elos

-> Win rate increases with elo.

HappyasraelSep 11, 20155 votes

that's only because people in low elo think they can freelo with her and quickly lose because they don't know how to play her. At higher levels, more dedicated people play her, and so they play her right and win.

AlomomolaSep 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Never said she didn't take skill, I just said that in low elo's (Such as my trashy silver 5), shes hell. Once you pick up her basic combos, shes very slippery and can do insane amounts of damage and get fed unless you are able to counter play her properly (which is something that doesn't happen in low elo). People in low elo who don't play riven don't know how to work against her and as such shes extremely powerful. In high elo shes pretty balanced.

Much in the same way, Lux at higher elo is very easily outplayable but at low elo nobody ever even bothers to dodge her skillshots and she can instakill people.

She's very powerful in higher elos too.

IiIianaSep 10, 201512 votes

Skarner is probably still the strongest in there, but in this patch specifically I'd say the changes benefited Lux Lux or Nocturne the most. The least benefited I'd say... Janna Janna. Yeah

dXQuarionXbSep 11, 20155 votes

At first I was on the fence about the Janna Q nerf (a range drop of 250 units- 1100 -> 850) when i first read about it, then I actually took her into a game. That huge range nerf basically shuts down any potential engage she had (unless you charge it, but that makes it so easy to predict). Not only that, Janna now has no quick-reaction peel vs. a Thresh hook (which has a range of 1100) or a Blitzcrank grab unless she's close enough to either to be in range. But it's risky to get too close, considering Janna has terrible stats during laning.

The one thing the nerf hasn't affected is peel for Leona , since her engage pulls her within tornado range.

I'm a supp main, and Janna is one of my best supports. I am thoroughly upset; least benefited doesn't even begin to describe her this patch.

IiIianaSep 11, 20155 votes

I completely understand and second all your frustration over Janna's nerf. I was flabbergasted to see the minimum range being reduced to 850 from 1100 as it is a huge nerf on what makes big part of her identity and gameplay. And it all was sneaked into the official patch notes, no PBE prior testing or warning. Her Q is mostly used as a responsive disengage tool, I understand why they'd not want her to use it as a reliable engage but now she can't even disengage properly as it stops right in front of a jungler heading towards you lane. I'm also a Janna/support main myself and I really hope the balance team does a double take on that nerf, Janna is not and will never be good at everything as she has no reliable sustain or significant damage to serve any purpose without an ally, other than being a running ward.

"Least benefited" was my attempt on bringing attention to Janna's case, as I've seen nothing on the forums about her past the first day of the 5.17 patch. item 3070 Janna

MaletizerSep 10, 201510 votes

What no Blakinola TL;DR? I am ashamed Rito!

PierroSep 11, 201510 votes

I play this game PURELY for fun, and every time some new nerfs, or buffs come out it's always what the pros pick and ban, I mean I know Rito wants LCS to be a big thing but if this goes on too long Rito will trip and fall and everyone "besides pros" which is the same thing that happened to MapleStory, it became a "be good or quit game" like what Rito is going to League now.

TheSaltWhispererSep 11, 201526 votes

Really? Maplestory? That's your comparison? Saying Maplestory took skill makes your comment almost entirely invalid. First off, unless you're playing on a pro level, Buffs and Debuffs don't matter as much. If your champ gets nerfed, you'll either keep playing it and find a way to make it work, or you'll pick a new one. Secondly, League of Legends is an ESport. You don't see the NFL changing rules so that people who play backyard football are happier. Pros are incredibly skilled at the game, which means if they're overusing certain things, they probably are overpowered. And unlike in pro games, where it can be easily outplayed, in lower ELO it can be game breaking. Look at how many people say that Darius is broken.

TL;DR: If you're looking anywhere other than at the pros to determine which champions need to be changed, you're doing it wrong.

LUS MontplaisirSep 11, 201512 votes

You. I like you.

RiotFeralPonySep 12, 20159 votes

Our goal is to try to balance as much as possible for all parties. It does help that often the overlap between what non-pro play find too strong are very often the same things that pro-players find most powerful. There are situations though where this isn't possible. When this is the case what option should we choose? This isn't always an either or scenario, but in a few rare situations it is.

Generally speaking we have some patches leaning towards the non-professional ecosystem and some - such as now before Worlds, where we look at professional play more heavily. We try to find a good balance between doing adjustments for both groups and I feel it'd be pretty detrimental overall to cater to one camp entirely.

MordepoolSep 12, 20154 votes

And what if your favorite champion never sees pro play. Is that a flaw in champion design and should be fixed with a rework. Or will they just get nerfed and never seen again for 4 years

XalvianSep 13, 20158 votes

Okay, here's the thing riot... I understand 100% and agree that nerfs around this time (I actually think most of the time but whatever) should be geared towards pros. If something is exploitable, it needs a nerf. HOWEVER: buffs should come from general community feedback. Do not buff a champ that pros enjoy using simply because it isn't getting enough use in pro play. That's dumb. Perhaps their lack of performance is the fact that they are indeed a weak champion and need a buff, but most likely it is simply because of the state of the meta (counterpicks/general team comps) or there being a more effective champ of the same style. Buffs should originate from community usage and success rates across several levels of casual play. If a champ is not used often/not effective in casual play, look at it, see whats up, PLAY SOME OF YOUR OWN GAMES AS THEM, and see what they need. Stop letting the pros dominate the buffs, let them worry about nerfs. I will say, there are some nerfs that the pros need that kill champs for casual play (azir im looking at you), but when it comes to something as unhealthy as some champs (azir) when played mechanically well, yeah, don't let that exist in a highly competitive place.

On a kinda unrelated note, I HATE the juggernaut patch with a burning passion. Never before have my games been so dominated by the state of a single patch that brought so much toxic gameplay. I won't go deep into this, but Skarner and Garen have no place doing that much damage if they get that tanky. Yeah, villain thing is alright for Garen, but oh my god when all you build is tank items and you can still do as much damage as most full ad top laners, there is a SERIOUS problem. And I don't just hate bruisers, in fact, I love the IDEA behind the juggernaut patch, give a little love to some bruisers that were doing subpar damage and didn't have great buildpaths to really BE a bruiser, either going tank or damage. But you took this too far. When I can go shaco, build titanic hydra, cinderhaulk, black plate, and any other tanky item that gives health and be as-or-more tanky than an average tank while doing just as much damage as I would going full ad, THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE ITEMS. Ive seen several champs do similar things with similar items, I just mentioned shaco because I main shaco, and I only really have good insight on him. Skarner is just dumb: more natural damage than a large majority of junglers, even outside of his spires, plus innate tankiness AND good cc AND MOBILITY. This guy, in his current state, is a noob players wet dream, with easy mechanics, high damage, control, and mobility that is unmatched all around by anyone I have ever experienced in the game personally.

That's it for my rant. I really hope you see this and actually take at least some of what im saying into consideration. At the VERY LEAST take into consideration the ridiculous stats that the new items give. Thanks for your time

Un7uckySep 13, 20152 votes

there are a lot of champs that havent seen pro play in over a year, how come it doesnt look like they have been made viable in proplay before adding more champs into hte game? i get that riot has to make money and they do that by adding champs not re balancing champs, but it seems that there is too much focus on adding new champs with kits that do everything more than fixings champs that do very little in any level of play

spQHtmhSovSep 11, 20158 votes

Fed Mordekaiser = 3 hit tanks and everybody on enemy team item 3078 item 3053 item 3152 item 3020 item 3089 item 3146

WolfBVSep 11, 20157 votes

I got an ad for Smite while watching .-.

Yordle XayahSep 11, 20156 votes

Another great Patch Rundown where guests make the Riot employee look like the company has NO IDEA of what they are doing with their game/champions.

TheSaltWhispererSep 11, 20156 votes

Riot has built a gaming community that is the highest watched ESport in the world. 27 Million people play League. And despite your complaints of them having 'no idea' what they're doing, you still continue to play the game. You might not like some of the buffs or debuffs that happen, but Riot does have a reason for doing it. It's not just one guy sitting in a room saying 'Watch how mad they'll get when we do this.' It's teams of people that debate constantly about where the game needs to be heading. Just sit back and chill, and enjoy the game.

x7r4n3xSep 11, 20153 votes

agreed that its not one person responsible but there are many instances where either their nerf/buff decisions go way beyond the necessary amount (first mao's heal nerfed, then his ulti reworked and then nerfed), their reasons for the changes aren't reflected in the hard facts of the change, or they are indecisive with which way they want the champion to go so you lead to either obnoxiously op champions cause of their buffs (skarner before hotfix) or you end up with champs that are a) nerfed so hard that they no longer become a viable pick (poppy is a debatable example) which makes it hard for new players to want to pick up and try them, or they get left behind with the constant meta changes and basically only exist with the die hard players of said champions (galio) I've been with this game since season 2 and I'm not going to say that I personally know better then riot does, but they obviously need to get a larger amount of unbiased opinions as well as they need to take seriously the opposing views of people who believe these changes are for the worse of the champ when presented with hard facts, and if you think that doesn't happen then watch how whenever they have a patch rundown the riot employee will take any opposing views and just push it over because they are too stubborn to admit that there's a chance that they're changes could ruin certain aspects of the game. i'm not saying that they are deliberately trying to ruin the game but when they've had so many changes that cause outrage amongst the community maybe its a sign that there need to be more people involved in these decisions

MordepoolSep 12, 20153 votes

Dude break up your wall of text. That was a painful but thought out read

Yordle XayahSep 11, 201510 votes

I'm sorry but it's becoming a tradition of the Patch Overview show to have guests that are not me, or you, or the guy below me. They are casters and/or professional players, and another thing that starts to repeat itself is the guests being like...

Q: I don't understand why you did this. The champion looses a lot of what made it unique etc. A: Uh...... yeah well........ we may figure it out later... (even though you are telling us already right here, and some pro players and the community in general were calling it out when it was on the PBE) but... yeah.... don't mind us

And I insist. These are not "OMG NERF RIVE/VAYNE" comments in the boards. These are comments from people who live off playing/casting League of Legends. So yeah. I just continue to see proof that Riot doesn't really know what they are doing. This being independent of me liking or not whatever changes they may do. That's not the point here. The point is the apparent lack of vision from the balancing team, that professionals react several times to many changes like... "Wait... what?"

I just they need to improve the way they observe the game to make balance changes, or pay attention when really drastic changes are called out on the PBE, the first thing that comes to mind is the Kassadin ult range reduced to 0.0000534 inches and right after that they were like "Uh... yeah... sorry about that"

Unless they don't really care about balance and it's just about doing funny experiments all the time. Because if that's the case....... then I've got nothing, they are on the perfect track.

MysticFlameHazeSep 10, 20155 votes

I like this, if i could hear more TL:DRs from the pros that actually play this champ i feel like i could understand more about these nerfs and buffs.

RockabananzaSep 10, 20153 votes

Woah woah woah. Where's Blakinola?

Ronald McGotemmSep 10, 20153 votes

Where is Blakinola's TL;DR? Lucian item 3070

Bronze YoshiSep 11, 20152 votes

Sometimes I really think that who ever makes these changes doesn't think deep in the changes that they are making. Just like everyone is saying maokai didn't need so much nerf. He was one of the best balanced champion in my opinion with mixed tank and damage with cc. Now look mord will be nerfed soon I bet it will, they should buff other champions to balance the champion who people thinks it's op and give them a weak spot through that other champions buff and not just nerf the ass off everyone who is strong.

TheSaltWhispererSep 11, 201510 votes

If you simply buffed champions that were week, then there would be a power creep effect. That's what happens when everyone as a whole keeps getting stronger and stronger. In a few months, that would result in counterplay windows being much smaller, and after a year nearly everyone would be either one shotting or taking no damage. Overall strength needs to stay at a base level, so that it can be regulated.

BoomShtickSep 11, 20155 votes

its like saying the way to fix the economy is to print more money. just makes everything more expensive. solves nothing. quasidefault definately said it well.