The first carousel is quite bad in itself (very little strategy, tons of caos), but the spatula make it 100 times worse. That item is just too good to be part of the 1st draft, and there is little to no skill involved in taking it: you just run for it asap and u pray; and if you get it you get way too much of an unfair advantage.
Metal Janna1 votesSolution:make first minion wave slightly harder. Boom. Now taking spatula carries risk because you might shoot yourself in the foot by failing to kill every minion because you took an item that isn't useful by itself.
Sona Ping1 votes[{quoted}](name=SAILOR SATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-22T16:00:34.354+0000)
The first carousel is quite bad in itself (very little strategy, tons of caos), but the spatula make it 100 times worse. That item is just too good to be part of the 1st draft, and there is little to no skill involved in taking it: you just run for it asap and u pray; and if you get it you get way too much of an unfair advantage.
There's little to no skill involved in taking it from another carousel, even less, and there is no skill in getting it dropped.
[{quoted}](name=Metal Janna,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-22T16:03:47.831+0000)
Solution:make first minion wave slightly harder. Boom. Now taking spatula carries risk because you might shoot yourself in the foot by failing to kill every minion because you took an item that isn't useful by itself.
There's no way that it's going to be made tight enough that the risk only goes to Spatula but while allowing, say, the 20 mana from a tear to be unaffected, or for that matter bad rolls and no item drops as other examples.
SAILOR SATANA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T16:13:08.762+0000)
There's little to no skill involved in taking it from another carousel
lol? the other carousel are ALL about your position and you can legit strategy for it I did it COUNTLESS times, sacrificing some hp to be sure to grab a nice item (hopefully/usually the spatula) I don't love that system but is TOTALLY different and MUCH more strategy based
Sona Ping1 votes[{quoted}](name=SAILOR SATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T16:37:36.573+0000)
lol? the other carousel are ALL about your position and you can legit strategy for it I did it COUNTLESS times, sacrificing some hp to be sure to grab a nice item (hopefully/usually the spatula) I don't love that system but is TOTALLY different and MUCH more strategy based
You can decide to sacrifice HP for an earlier pick, but you cannot control getting a spatula with skill. You cannot control whether a spatula is there, you cannot influence when a gate is down, you cannot control your position relative to the items when that happens, and there are less players who even have an option to compete for it at that time.
SAILOR SATANA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T16:46:11.260+0000)
you cannot control getting a spatula with skill.
You can grant yourself a really substantial chance of getting one. You won't ALWAYS get it but most of the time you will. Sure, there still luck involved (again: I didn't say I like it, nor that I find it perfect) but SEVERELY less than in the 1st carousel, the complete opposite of what you said. I usually go for the last 2 spots in the beginning and I do so cause I realized that you will hit "jackpot" more than not (more than 50% for sure, while on the first draft your chances are less than 15%, assuming there is a spatula).
Btw, EVERYTHING in TFT has a "luck factor", most of the time more relevant than this: but that doesn't mean at all that strategies/skill aren't influencial.
there are less players who even have an option to compete for it at that time.
...based on their positioning, aka the overall strategy used by everyone. Nothing to do with "luck", quite the opposite.
Sona Ping1 votes[{quoted}](name=SAILOR SATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T17:02:36.728+0000)
You can grant yourself a really substantial chance of getting one. You won't ALWAYS get it but most of the time you will. Sure, there still luck involved (again: I didn't say I like it, nor that I find it perfect) but SEVERELY less than in the 1st carousel, the complete opposite of what you said. I usually go for the last 2 spots in the beginning and I do so cause I realized that you will hit "jackpot" more than not (more than 50% for sure, while on the first draft your chances are less than 15%, assuming there is a spatula).
Btw, EVERYTHING in TFT has a "luck factor", most of the time more relevant than this: but that doesn't mean at all that strategies/skill aren't influencial.
...based on their positioning, aka the overall strategy used by everyone. Nothing to do with "luck", quite the opposite.
Then how? "but SEVERELY less than in the 1st" How is their any skill? You need reasons before this conclusion. "based on their positioning," Do tell if there is some mechanic to control positioning, because by everything we can observe so far, you cannot. You cannot control where you are on the board and what is there and what is near you when you get out.
SAILOR SATANA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T17:57:23.681+0000)
Do tell if there is some mechanic to control positioning, because by everything we can observe so far, you cannot.
...at this point I am starting to fear I fell into a troll trap, but I'll answer like you were serious, cause I hope I am wrong, and yours was a legit misunderstanding. I was talking about the position on the LEADERBOARD of the match ofc, the one that dictate the pick order. And, like I said, using this STRATEGY I always granted me a number of spatulas way worth my hp investement (subjective) or, at the very least, a MUCH higher chance to get it than in the 1st draft (objective).
In other words, if you use certain strategies you are GUARANTEE to have a MUCH better chance of getting a spatula in the 2nd draft than in the 1st, thus making the "luck factor" less relevant. Is not even my "opinion", mind me: is a mere fact; on average you have MUCH more "control" over the spatula in the 2nd draft, period.
Sona Ping1 votes[{quoted}](name=SAILOR SATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T18:12:18.550+0000)
...at this point I am starting to fear I fell into a troll trap, but I'll answer like you were serious, cause I hope I am wrong, and yours was a legit misunderstanding. I was talking about the position on the LEADERBOARD of the match ofc, the one that dictate the pick order. And, like I said, using this STRATEGY I always granted me a number of spatulas way worth my hp investement (subjective) or, at the very least, a MUCH higher chance to get it than in the 1st draft (objective).
In other words, if you use certain strategies you are GUARANTEE to have a MUCH better chance of getting a spatula in the 2nd draft than in the 1st, thus making the "luck factor" less relevant. Is not even my "opinion", mind me: is a mere fact; on average you have MUCH more "control" over the spatula in the 2nd draft, period.
Ah yes, the first resort of only the best ideas: "People who disagree with me are trolls."
Everybody already knows that carousel picks are granted earlier to those with less health and that if you lose rounds you get picks sooner. This is not some hidden thing that people are not aware of. Everybody also already knows that using those random factors of the game is where the intention of where the skill in playing the game is supposed to be. And of course, there is no skill expression in not doing that, doing nothing instead.
From your response, we both have confirmed that during the event in question there is no way to control what I have asked you about in regards to this. You cannot control your positioning like you assert you can and you exert no skill to control the carousel. Consequently, as there is a lack of those game mechanics with which to do so, this leads us all to the simple fact that there can be no skill as there can be no skill expression with mechanics that do not exist.
SAILOR SATANA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-22T18:37:09.965+0000)
Ah yes, the first resort of only the best ideas: "People who disagree with me are trolls."
No, people that "misunderstand" SUPER easy stuff in a "convenient" way often are. And, again, you totally "misunderstood" me, again in a way that totally twisted my words: how odd :)
You cannot control your positioning like you assert you can
...the first time could have been just a mistake. This time is just you being pathetic and in bad faith. So yeah:
"I was talking about the position on the LEADERBOARD of the match ofc, the one that dictate the pick order. And, like I said, using this STRATEGY I always granted me a number of spatulas way worth my hp investement (subjective) or, at the very least, a MUCH higher chance to get it than in the 1st draft (objective).
In other words, if you use certain strategies you are GUARANTEE to have a MUCH better chance of getting a spatula in the 2nd draft than in the 1st, thus making the "luck factor" less relevant. Is not even my "opinion", mind me: is a mere fact; on average you have MUCH more "control" over the spatula in the 2nd draft, period."
Here's written why is a F-A-C-T that in the 2nd carousel you have WAY more control over the spatula, something you avoided like the plague cause it totally cornered you. I'll just cut paste it over and over, you don't deserve further efforts^^
SAILOR SATANA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Metal Janna,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=ttbjxsMK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-22T16:03:47.831+0000)
Solution:make first minion wave slightly harder.
Wouldn't change much. The first waves atm are a joke, you would need to buff them quite a lot and that would cause a LOT of potential issues (you get a not so great champ with a bad starting item and u are fucked). And losing a single time vs the IA would still be a totally acceptable price for the spatula.
Pika Fox1 votesWould be a garbage idea. You NEVER want the first 3 waves to be losable, because then you risk players getting cheated based entirely on what riot opted to give you to start with.
Pika Fox1 votesPersonally id prefer to see spatula removed from drops and caros, and instead you auto get 2 to use. One after krugs, the other after drag or something similar.
But as is, spatula is too weak really. Requires heavy investment to get anything of use out of it and stars need to kinda align. The big brain play of finding sorc cho is fun is great, but requires 2 specific items to make him a sorc then more items to give him AP and a full comp around him.