Suggestions to reduce RNG

Great Daimadoshi·Dec 11, 2019·8 votes·7,724 views

I really like TFT but there are a few things that really makes this game frustrating, like the totally RNG in items and champions reroll. I re-propose my thoughts on this, copied from my answer in another discussion.

1. The carousel This stage is fine for me, except for one thing: when a player choose the champ, remove him from the carousel! This simple shrewdness grants enough readability to the remaining players, reducing the amount of time you need to understand if you have picked the champ or if you need to move to another one.

**2. The items ** I would rather choose the items from a random list with the same amount of pieces for everyone, if you don't choose in time, like 8 seconds, the system gives you a random one from the list. I don't count how many times I lost a game because someone else was blessed by RNG and had 2/3 (or 7/8) items more than me. Something like:

round 1, 2, 3: at the end of those rounds you can choose one piece from a list of 3, granting you 2 complete items at the beginning of pvp
round 9, 15, 21: at the end of those rounds you can choose three pieces from a list of 6, granting you 2 complete items because of the item piece from the carousels at round 6, 12, 18
round 27, 33, 39, 45: at the end of those rounds you can choose one full item from a list of 3, minimizing the possibility to find only useless items (like Talisman of Light when you're running a full different compo)

At the end of round 24, the first carousel with full items, every player has 9 items. In this way you need to arrange the compo around the items you choose but you're not gutted by the number of items and you can focus on units and positioning. Gold and Neeko's Help drop remains the same.

3. Champs rerolls Another thorn in the side, totally RNG based (for what I know) and almost totally no skill based. You can go for champs that noboby else is picking, but this does not guarantee you that you're going to find all the necessary unit to upgrade to gold. Sure, you can hyper-roll and hope for the best but again no brain play involved, just "luck". Neeko's help is a good addition but it's not enough, too many games where you didn't find it and, by the time you had completed one 1 cost champ to gold, someone else already had three champs at gold. The solution could be to add a special shop where you can buy a one star unit of the champs in your compo, if available from the pool, at a massive cost:

1 cost champs -> 10 gold, limited to 2 units of the same champ
2 cost champs -> 12 gold, limited to 2 units of the same champ
3 cost champs -> 18 gold, limited to 2 units of the same champ
4 cost champs -> 20 gold, limited to 1 unit of the same champ
5 cost champs -> 25 gold, limited to 1 unit of the same champ
7 cost champs -> 40 gold, limited to 1 unit of the same champ

What do you think about it?

31 Comments

Sanitarium33Dec 11, 20193 votes

Best suggestion to reduce RNG:

Hire a new dev team. Mic drop!

GoldsmithSmartyDec 12, 20192 votes

I agree with every single word you've said. This RNG keeps me from playing this game mode. I've had so many games where I hyper rolled in the late game to get a single copy of a Champion that no one bought even once. I didn't get it and lost in a close fight for number one position. After I had too many games like this I just quit. I also tried to stockpile gold and roll later or buy every champ there is and try to make something off of it. Still, whether I win or lose depends on luck purely.

grimphoenixDec 12, 20192 votes

full agree, with an additional point spatula cannot stay a rare item, it needs to be as common as other items if it is going to stay on carousel, or better idea, chose a unit, then pick an item from a list like you suggested for carousel so people cant win the game off the first carousel. as a side note, carousel collision is so borked its basically another form of rng.

LaserWolfMurderDec 11, 20191 votes

The solution could be to add a special shop where you can buy a one star unit of the champs in your compo, if available from the pool, at a massive cost:

1 cost champs -> 10 gold, limited to 2 units of the same champ

2 cost champs -> 12 gold, limited to 2 units of the same champ

3 cost champs -> 18 gold, limited to 2 units of the same champ

4 cost champs -> 20 gold, limited to 1 unit of the same champ

5 cost champs -> 25 gold, limited to 1 unit of the same champ

7 cost champs -> 40 gold, limited to 1 unit of the same champ

The carousel and items idea seems like it would definitely be worth a try...but I love this, I don't know about all of the prices specifically but I love the idea of paying a massive cost for a specific unit. However I feel that my excitement about getting whatever specific Lux I needed to dominate the late game would result in me being more pissed at other people accomplishing this before me.

Neeko's help...I know recently the percentage drop has increased but I still may not see one for a few games in a row...not something you can depend on.

The RNG in this game is mostly able to be calculated and manipulated by the player, that's why you can see Keane finishing 3 of his accounts all in the top 15 (or whatever crazy leaderboard number it was) of the entire NA Challengers...some games though you're just straight up screwed with nothing to do about it, and some games you have 4 lvl 2 champs without rolling once by the time you face your first opponent. Still I love this idea, however maybe just not with Lux, even spending 40 gold for a specific Lux unit seems too good to be true, I don't know how many times I've got a completed comp and all I need is just that one juicy Lux to buff my team up to a ridiculous level.

Great DaimadoshiDec 12, 20191 votes

My idea is to allow you to buy a unit only if you already have at least one, so you need to find a Lux to buy an identical Lux. Prices are purely indicative, probably the best is to start with really high prices and then reduce them while reducing the probability to find that specific cost champ (with a minimum cost based on basic champ cost) and to open this shop only after round 15.

The RNG in this game is mostly able to be calculated and manipulated by the player, that's why you can see Keane finishing 3 of his accounts all in the top 15 (or whatever crazy leaderboard number it was) of the entire NA Challengers

I'm not saying that the game lacks of strategy and skill but I prefer a game where the randomness affects only specifics behaviors and not all of them (we already have the rng in shop, rng in critical strikes, rng in a lot of skills). If I want to play gamble, I play lottery.

Aikido PandaDec 12, 20191 votes

Totally agree. Very glad that I am not the only one thinking that RNG system should be reworked like this:) But I don't think there should be any limit of purchasing champs as you described in 3rd paragraph. There should be an expensive, but guaranteed way of buying necessary champs, when player is limited only by his amount of gold.

Pika FoxDec 12, 20191 votes

RNG isnt bad, and is important for the game to work properly. Part of the skill is doing the best with what you have, and dealing with probabilities of what youll get. The alternative is you get a solved game that takes far less skill.

Great DaimadoshiDec 12, 20191 votes

Dude, did you read the whole post? I don't want to remove RNG, I want to use RNG to improve the game. It's not fair to let the RNG decide how many items we have, it's fair to let it to decide which items I can craft.

About champs, if the advanced shop is a bad idea then progressive increasing chance to get what I have in my comp can be a solution, but it can go out of control really fast in terms of balance.

The skill is to adapt to what I get and to what enemies are doing but comebacks are almost impossible when you can't obtain what are you looking (and hoping) for.

Pika FoxDec 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-12-12T13:22:26.852+0000)

Dude, did you read the whole post? I don't want to remove RNG, I want to use RNG to improve the game. It's not fair to let the RNG decide how many items we have, it's fair to let it to decide which items I can craft.

About champs, if the advanced shop is a bad idea then progressive increasing chance to get what I have in my comp can be a solution, but it can go out of control really fast in terms of balance.

The skill is to adapt to what I get and to what enemies are doing but comebacks are almost impossible when you can't obtain what are you looking (and hoping) for.

Part of the skill of the game is working with what you get and what you are likely to get. Youre supposed to be building your comp around what items you get, not praying the items you get fit your comp.

Great DaimadoshiDec 13, 20191 votes

Crystal clear, then why the number of items is random? I can build my compo to fit the items I get but I will always be inferior to another player that got 4/5 or even more items because the rng decided so.

Pika FoxDec 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T09:09:50.178+0000)

Crystal clear, then why the number of items is random? I can build my compo to fit the items I get but I will always be inferior to another player that got 4/5 or even more items because the rng decided so.

They changed that a while ago. Throughout the course of the game everyone will get nearly the same exact "value" of drops. This doesnt mean same number of items, but you should get approximately the same value total of loot orbs.

Great DaimadoshiDec 16, 20191 votes

Dude, again, I know and it's clear but stop trying to defend at any cost a system that can be improved. Having 15/20 golds and having 4/5 item pieces is not the same, gold tends to lose value, items don't. It's always better to drop 2 pieces instead of 8/10 golds, except maybe in the first 3 rounds. Yesterday I had 2 games where minions dropped 1 piece and wolfs dropped nothing else but golds. Meanwhile the most of the other guys dropped 3/4 pieces. It's super good to drop golds in the minions' stage, but it's superbad to drop ONLY golds in the wolfs' stage, and this is just an example.

Pika FoxDec 16, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-16T08:54:17.845+0000)

Dude, again, I know and it's clear but stop trying to defend at any cost a system that can be improved. Having 15/20 golds and having 4/5 item pieces is not the same, gold tends to lose value, items don't. It's always better to drop 2 pieces instead of 8/10 golds, expect maybe in the first 3 rounds. Yesterday I had 2 games where minions dropped 1 piece and wolfs dropped nothing else but golds. Meanwhile the most of the other guys dropped 3/4 pieces. It's super good to drop golds in the minions' stage, but it's superbad to drop ONLY golds in the wolfs' stage, and this is just an example.

Except if youre just getting gold that late into the game, youre getting a LOT of gold. Again, the value you get is nearly equal.

Great DaimadoshiDec 16, 20191 votes

Am I speaking a different language from you? Golds are useless once you get your compo, in order to perform you need items! How can you pretend to win if you have 4 items and other players have 8/10? Where is the skill in this?

Pika FoxDec 16, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-16T10:35:06.619+0000)

Am I speaking a different language from you? Golds are useless once you get your compo, in order to perform you need items! How can you pretend to win if you have 4 items and other players have 8/10? Where is the skill in this?

Gold is NEVER useless in any real game. You are unlikely to be level 9 by the time the game ends.

And if you have 4 items and the others have 8-10, you had numerous other advantages early, such as being able to hard roll to get your early locks for your comp and lock them all out of said better comp, or are again a higher level with a better field advantage and star advantage.

Great DaimadoshiDec 16, 20191 votes

Yeah, but having a 9 units compo with 4 items is not the same that having a 7 units compo with 8/10 items. You can activate as many traits as you can but if your enemy have the right items you can't win. Probably the only case where you can win in this occasion is if you have multiple cost 4 units at lvl 2/3.

Pika FoxDec 16, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-16T13:26:14.818+0000)

Yeah, but having a 9 units compo with 4 items is not the same that having a 7 units compo with 8/10 items. You can activate as many traits as you can but if your enemy have the right items you can't win. Probably the only case where you can win in this occasion is if you have multiple cost 4 units at lvl 2/3.

Then congratulations, you failed to use your resources properly because, again, on average you got the exact same value as everyone else out of your orbs.

Great DaimadoshiDec 17, 20192 votes

Ok man, you don't want to understand that items and golds haven't the same value in combat. This discussion is ended for me, enjoy your time.

Pika FoxDec 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T08:42:07.862+0000)

Ok man, you don't want to understand that items and golds haven't the same value in combat. This discussion is ended for me, enjoy your time.

Gold is used for units, rerolls, interest and levels. It has an indirect influence in combat. Items have a direct influence in combat. There is a point where gold is just as valuable as any item you could get. And guess what? Its about what you get from the orbs.

Great DaimadoshiDec 17, 20192 votes

You can be as rich as you want, being at lvl 9 and having all the units at lvl 3, if you face an opponent that was luckier than you with items (or with units btw), unless you got a perfect counter compo, you lose, period.

This because having a lot of golds doesn't grant you to find the strongest units or the units you need for the lvl 3.

At the same conditions, like lvl 9 and a lot of 3 stars units, the player with more items wins (unless he threw away crafting shitty items). You can have even 100 golds more and he will smash you no matter what.

Because items, in the long term, are more valuable than golds!

Pika FoxDec 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Daimadoshi,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T13:44:10.841+0000)

You can be as rich as you want, being at lvl 9 and having all the units at lvl 3, if you face an opponent that was luckier than you with items (or with units btw), unless you got a perfect counter compo, you lose, period.

This because having a lot of golds doesn't grant you to find the strongest units or the units you need for the lvl 3.

At the same conditions, like lvl 9 and a lot of 3 stars units, the player with more items wins (unless he threw away crafting shitty items). You can have even 100 golds more and he will smash you no matter what.

Because items, in the long term, are more valuable than golds!

If you rolled extra gold, and everyone else has the same number of t3s and same level as you.... you completely messed up. Their items are wholly irrelevant at that point, you just played poorly.

ToolmakerDec 28, 20191 votes

I'm not sure if you play TFT, but RNG is the single most important factor in the game. Items are important. You need items to actually win. If you reach ocean mage with t2 Brand, but you get negatron cloaks, 1 rod, 1 tear, you are unable to build the necessary carry items. If you get a bunch of negatron cloaks, giant's belts, gloves, there is no composition that will be able to use those items. If someone takes the item you need from carousel, you lose.

XhaidenDec 16, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-12-12T22:46:12.365+0000)

Part of the skill of the game is working with what you get and what you are likely to get. Youre supposed to be building your comp around what items you get, not praying the items you get fit your comp.

What game?! Counterstrike? O.o

TFT is AUTO-CHESS! You talk as if this game is something like counterstike: "ok, so i got enough money for a Desert Eagle...paired with my aiming skill and a bit of camping it's still winnable... even tho, the enemy has some of the most expensive and most efficient weapons in CS".

In TFT you need a very basic strategy skill (so you won't position your range units in front and tank units in the back), you need to know the units/comps/items and how the economy works (how to earn money and how/when to spend it) - which is basically around 10% of what it takes to win a game. The rest of 90% - is defined by items and champion drops. Aka RNG (pure luck).

There's times when you hyper roll your economy - and don't find shit.. while other times - you're 50+ gold "and it's as if the right units are just handed to you on a silver platter" - which means you also have the chance to LvL-up and get even stronger - while the ones who hyperolled their economy and got shit - are also behind in lvl - thus even weaker. Same goes for item drops. You can't build your comp around item drops - because that too is RNG (you can't chose what you gonna get). Where once again, the way you talk ("Youre supposed to be building your comp around what items you get") - it's as if you're talking about a different game (Diablo maybe). Both the champion and item drops are RNG. Like 100% for champion drops and 70% for items (inting - so you get 7th/8th place for carousel - can give you a bit of choice). That being said, if anything... "you're suppose to fit the items you get with the comp that you have".

PS.Looking at the stats of your account - you don't even play TFT - so why do you comment on something you clearly have no understanding of (even if you play on another account - this fact remains).🤨

Pika FoxDec 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What game?! Counterstrike? O.o

TFT is AUTO-CHESS! You talk as if this game is something like counterstike: "ok, so i got enough money for a Desert Eagle...paired with my aiming skill and a bit of camping it's still winnable... even tho, the enemy has some of the most expensive and most efficient weapons in CS".

In TFT you need a very basic strategy skill (so you won't position your range units in front and tank units in the back), you need to know the units/comps/items and how the economy works (how to earn money and how/when to spend it) - which is basically around 10% of what it takes to win a game. The rest of 90% - is defined by items and champion drops. Aka RNG (pure luck).

There's times when you hyper roll your economy - and don't find shit.. while other times - you're 50+ gold "and it's as if the right units are just handed to you on a silver platter" - which means you also have the chance to LvL-up and get even stronger - while the ones who hyperolled their economy and got shit - are also behind in lvl - thus even weaker. Same goes for item drops. You can't build your comp around item drops - because that too is RNG (you can't chose what you gonna get). Where once again, the way you talk ("Youre supposed to be building your comp around what items you get") - it's as if you're talking about a different game (Diablo maybe). Both the champion and item drops are RNG. Like 100% for champion drops and 70% for items (inting - so you get 7th/8th place for carousel - can give you a bit of choice). That being said, if anything... "you're suppose to fit the items you get with the comp that you have".

PS.Looking at the stats of your account - you don't even play TFT - so why do you comment on something you clearly have no understanding of (even if you play on another account - this fact remains).🤨

RNG is not some abstract thing you have no control over. Everything is still a % chance. If youre running a comp that needs a tier III maokai, but two other people have 2 tier 2 maokais, and you dont even have a single one, then its not RNG at that point. Youre not likely to get it. The incorrect move is continuing a comp with the assumption of getting that unit.

The skill in the RNG is what you do with the information you have available to you, and how you use what you get. Yes, some games will be heavily in your favor and youll have to literally try to lose. Some games will be a slog and just staying above 7th place will be a pain. But the majority of the games will set you up in a way where your input and decisionmaking is what determines your outcome.

XhaidenDec 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=00060000000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-17T07:13:17.312+0000)

RNG is not some abstract thing you have no control over. Everything is still a % chance. If youre running a comp that needs a tier III maokai, but two other people have 2 tier 2 maokais, and you dont even have a single one, then its not RNG at that point. Youre not likely to get it. The incorrect move is continuing a comp with the assumption of getting that unit.

The skill in the RNG is what you do with the information you have available to you, and how you use what you get. Yes, some games will be heavily in your favor and youll have to literally try to lose. Some games will be a slog and just staying above 7th place will be a pain. But the majority of the games will set you up in a way where your input and decisionmaking is what determines your outcome.

Once again - from the way you talk - sounds like you're familiar only with the theory - but not the practice. I actually made a topic about this awhile back...

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/teamfight-tactics/qeZ08AsJ-rewarding-variety-player-with-rarest-units-ao

...🙄

Pika FoxDec 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Once again - from the way you talk - sounds like you're familiar only with the theory - but not the practice. I actually made a topic about this awhile back...

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/teamfight-tactics/qeZ08AsJ-rewarding-variety-player-with-rarest-units-ao

...🙄

At this point youre just making excuses.

XhaidenDec 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=09v6XoYj,comment-id=0006000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T10:54:18.449+0000)

At this point youre just making excuses.

My points are backed by "facts" - while you just talk for the sake of talking.

ToolmakerDec 28, 20191 votes

No, RNG is uncontrollable in every game. If you try to pivot your composition into something else, there is no guarantee that you will get appropriate units, your bench is probably full at that point, and you need to be able to build the correct items, which is also based on RNG.

If your opponent gets 5 electirc t2 zed at level 7, you are screwed, because he is going to kill the whole lobby without them being able to react in time.

Pika FoxDec 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, RNG is uncontrollable in every game. If you try to pivot your composition into something else, there is no guarantee that you will get appropriate units, your bench is probably full at that point, and you need to be able to build the correct items, which is also based on RNG.

If your opponent gets 5 electirc t2 zed at level 7, you are screwed, because he is going to kill the whole lobby without them being able to react in time.

Yes, in one out of 500 games or more, this will happen, sure. Most games player input and decision is the single biggest factor. Theres a reason card games like magic and yugioh are not RNG based, even though RNG dictates what you get and when via deck shuffling.

ToolmakerDec 28, 20191 votes

You should play more TFT, preferably ranked. Maybe if more combinations were viable, the RNG wouldn't be as much of a factor, but when you have a bunch of different combinations but only 4 or 5 strong compositions with a few items that will actually make your composition strong, then RNG is the single most important factor in your ability to win.