About the new TT

Devack The Holy·Jun 10, 2015·17 votes·5,924 views

Okay, Riot, I'm just going to come out and say it.

YOU SERIOUSLY MESSED UP.

Most of the changes are fine. However, the new Death Timers are absolutely pointless on this map. Just had a game where we got ACED mid game, and the resulting 45-second-plus death timer allowed the enemy team to take in order:

1 Base turret 1 inhibitor almost took the Nexus turret

With no chance for us to defend.

Usually that's fine in SR, with the increased distance between the nexus and inhibitors allowing for greater time to travel and the chance to save the nexus turrets. But on TT, with the much smaller space between Nexus and inhibs, it's much more important to stave off an ACE, or the enemy could end much quicker with no repercussions.

TBH, that's why I liked the old TT. An ACE wasn't as game-ending as it is now. This allows for much more intense battles of back-and-forth.

Not to mention the other problems that plague the mode:

Incredibly high number of bots: When the first question you ask the players who pick free week champs is "Are you human?", that's a bad sign. (Dominion faces this problem as well.) Lack of Normal Draft mode. Lack of Solo Ranked mode.

tl;dr: Revert the Death Timer changes.

40 Comments

RiotMANWOLFAXEBOSSJun 11, 201515 votes

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Death timers are super fickle. Very difficult to tune without thousands of games worth of data. That being said, they are actually shorter early game (6 seconds shorter at level 1), 0.5 seconds higher at level 6, the same at level 11, and slightly higher late game (4 seconds higher at level 18). The interval in which the game adds additional time to death timers was also changed to 30 seconds rather than one minute, but still scales at the same percentage (nothing really change, just smoother). So all in all, I think the outcome of that ace would have been the same pre-5.11.

However, I will definitely be monitoring that stuff as it is really touchy.

In regards to the first tier turret, it is intentionally weak. It has all around lower stats, including attack range and vision. This was done for a number of reasons:

Encourage more objective-focused gameplay
Smooth out early game goals
Encourage/Empower ADCs on a map that they traditionally haven't been terribly valued on (at least outside of competitive levels)

We are very conscious of the concern that games may go too long, but we hope that Vilemaw will help teams close out. Much like death timers, game length is also very difficult to fully understand without tons of data. Same sentiment here though, we're keeping close watch and will adjust as needed.

RetillinJun 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Encourage/Empower ADCs on a map that they traditionally haven't been terribly valued on (at least outside of competitive levels)

Wait, what? This seems very wrong. If a tower is EASY to kill, you no longer need an adc to do it. So you devalue the role even more. This is 100% backwards.

RiotMANWOLFAXEBOSSJun 11, 20159 votes

Well, you have to take all the other tower, Vilemaw, minion, item changes into account. The first tier turret was just one piece of a much larger whole.

Also, it was a sub-goal. Thus the #3 on the list.

RetillinJun 11, 20152 votes

So then you agree that the first tower doesn't encourage people to play an adc?

RiotMANWOLFAXEBOSSJun 11, 20157 votes

The first tier towers in a vacuum, yes I agree.

The package as a whole, no I disagree.

RetillinJun 11, 20152 votes

Okay, then why list it? If you and I both agree that the first tower doesn't drive diversities towards a few adcs, it should not make a list saying it does right?

MasalarJun 11, 20157 votes

That's like saying that cheese by itself doesn't make a good sandwich. You seem to think, sure a sandwich with bread, meat, condomints and cheese makes a good sandwich. But cheese itself doesn't make a sandwich, so why include in a list of sandwich ingredients?

Malzahard ModeJun 11, 20155 votes

CHEESE BY ITSELF MAKES AWESOME SANDWICHES!!!!! HELLO GRILLED CHEESE IS DELICIOUS!!!

(i realize that wasn't the point of the post but i felt like i needed to point that out)

Tis a nice dayJun 11, 20152 votes

He just needs something to complain about.

Solidair3Jun 11, 201512 votes

hey MWAB, just a little reminder, we were promised a new big discussion about dominion about 6 months ago that you said you'd get back to once the dust of the new season and SRU settled... That must be a lot of dust, huh?

just a reminder.

arc95Jun 11, 20152 votes

But what about the bots issue... the updates dont matter if the map is still unplayable because of bots

FarRockBFJun 10, 20156 votes

They raised the death timers?

Even in the old TT, an ACE past 15 min meant the game was over (not necc immediately but enough damage to make it certain).

Silents429Jun 10, 20152 votes

They slightly raised the death timers, by literally a couple seconds.

Lee899Jun 10, 20156 votes

Towers are paper now and just flat out die with a few hits

Ranged pretty much dominate the map now since the lane is cut so short that melee can be flat out pushed to where you make it 3v2 or even 3v1

increased death timers are a total joke

the slowed pool healing is a complete joke and just makes all the above issues worse X2

Riot ruined TT flat out and i think they did it so they can just say Eff TT we want to focus on SR

FarRockBFJun 10, 20159 votes

{quoted} Riot ruined TT flat out and i think they did it so they can just say Eff TT we want to focus on SR

What? They would have just left it alone, this statement is ridiculous.

They over-changed something which is quite common. I suspect they will watch a few thousands games and then tweak as necessary. As an avid TT fan I am happy we are getting attention.

Lee899Jun 10, 20153 votes

Not really. It's a common issue with games like LoL where the developers will only focus on what ever mode makes them the most money and then screw up the rest of them cuz it makes them less to no money. I'm sure if 3's ranked was a profitable as 5's league this crap would have never happened.

Devack The HolyJun 10, 20156 votes

Pretty sure with the prevalence of bots in BOTH TT and Dominion, and Riot's lack of response to multiple complaints on the issue, that they just don't give a damn about any mode other than SR.

ZedexJun 10, 20152 votes

Must be bots in your smurf games...I never play with or against bots in TT on my level 30 account.

itsCHANCEyoJun 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Must be bots in your smurf games...I never play with or against bots in TT on my level 30 account.

i hear this a lot... but im lvl 30, been playing for 1.5 years, almost TT exclusively... and I still get an AWFUL lot of bots in my games. Have to dodge almost every other TT game because of the bot problem. Is it a rank issue? ELO stuff? i dont understand!

GingaNinjuhJun 10, 20151 votes

Amen. Its about time.

LICENSED HOOKERJun 10, 20151 votes

Bro today, i came across a Heimer, mord and jayce holy fuck

Heim was bot the whole game and he camped towers(ok thats usual not a problem) The mord and jayce top for some fking reason and they took towers sooooooooo fast, because i died 1 time as annie i come back and its half hp -_- level 7! + the shields..

Silents429Jun 10, 20155 votes

Evening, I am here to point out unless you have a solution for catching bots then shut the hell up about them, there is no easy way of removing them, and if players aren't reporting that they are indeed bots, then they will never be rid of. Riot is aware they exist, and have acknowledged they exist but no magical cure for removal exists.

Second, The death timers have literally been "smoothed out" if you check pbe you will find the death timers are only slightly higher by a few seconds.

Thirdly, They have no ruined TT, and the towers have no gotten weaker, they have literally raised the defense stats on all the towers and added a 3rd tower for even more defense.

Devack The HolyJun 10, 20154 votes

Yes, a third tower with all the structural integrity of a skyscraper made of paper.

Silents429Jun 10, 20152 votes

And it still slows them down more then before the update.

The updates made none of what your complaining about occur.

poodooJun 13, 20151 votes

Why are you so defensive? How do you know what Riot knows? To start, you can look for patterns, such as going 0/10 every game. How about not buying any items all game? How about buying the same item in every slot? How about allowing the players in game to type in some type of command that has the client run some series of monitors when reported automatically, such as having the player respond in some coherent way? How about throwing these non-contributing players into the lowest of dungeon tiers where they can bot with bots? They are not productive enough in game to avoid complete detection. There are some patterns that can be detected with most automation. Even if timings are staggered, you can detect extended patterns of not contributing to kills, which should drop the player into some non-ip training mode until they pick up their game. You can't tell me that there isn't time at a meeting to come up with some detection ideas instead of just pumping out skins.

Silents429Jun 14, 20151 votes

I know what Riot knows because I read what Reds say and posts they make on the subjects, Not every bot does the exact same thing and some people have flat out never seen them, 1 red on the ban wave thread mentioned they want to get rid of bots aswell.

Demonsolder21Jun 10, 20154 votes

Hmm I dont know man It seems fine to me...

BadTrendsJun 11, 20153 votes

The new TT is not fine. Matter of fact its borderline awful. Its great they are giving the attention, but it should have been well thought out attention. They have had years to get this right and the fact that the changes are bad show they aren't focusing on it.

KrynikJun 10, 20153 votes

I think the map is much more fun now. I'm playing it more now than I did before, because before when I played it was always a giant clusterfuck Just my opinion. Maybe it'll change when I play more games

JettwistJun 10, 20152 votes

So you like summoners rift I take it because now TT is a Mini Summoners Rift

JettwistJun 10, 20153 votes

I have to agree it seems like Riot just ruined what made this map unique, now its just a cluster of towers. its a small map guys it doesn't need that many towers and with that trinket they might as well throw out {{summoner:2}} all together on the map

CamieMac31Jun 11, 20153 votes

Riot ruined what was a good map. Now you have zero space in lane. No early ganking and you can hid at 2 towers non stop. I dont play SR because the map sucks. Thanks for ruining this one too. After playing this game since it was made I am finally done.

I main adc and I play it on SR not sure why you need to play every champ on every map. This was a different game style and way to play.

Not to mention we just played a miserable 40 min game. It should never take that long on this map.

I didnt bother trying the blizzard version of this game because I have been so loyal to this game but I am downloading it as I type this. Hopefully they understand their players better and stop making it so you play 1 specific way or you are wrong.

The skill champs now take little to no skill. What a boring game. No skill no good maps lots of bots, trolls, and players who think they are good because riot had to dumb down skill champs so much.

MaliginantJun 10, 20152 votes

My biggest problem with the new map is the incredible ability for the new turrets to kill an entire wave of cs when you back if the enemy is winning lane. Back in the old map, if you were low you could just back without the fear of losing the rest of the laning phase/game because you're suddenly a lv behind. Weren't the new changes supposed to reduce snowballing?

Rinky DinkyJun 11, 20152 votes

lol they lowered the death timers did they not? I know they did for most of the game

So why accuse them of messing up, when they actually improved everything?

They did not seriously mess tt up when there is only one problem.

KnownAsylumJun 11, 20152 votes

WHY BOTS....... WHY.... WHY THE NEED FOR A PVP VS BOTS.... WHY??? it dosnt make sense... to collect data? to make game que timers shorter??? either way.... its USELESS literally just played 3 games where my team was entirely made up of bots.... I WOULD HAVE WAITED the extra 5 min to play a damn game... im not incredibly impatient. DELETE THE BOTS! DELETE THE BOTS!!! DELETE THE DAMN BOTS!!!

CerbearusJun 11, 20151 votes

Been playing TT and Dom for years and still have yet to see any of these bots everyone complains about...

poodooJun 12, 20151 votes

Honestly don't mean to be hateful but changing treeline was a mistake. You should really focus those efforts on a new map or game mode instead. Please put it back.

New towers also ruin the starting top lane gank.