The idea that females need to be 'massive' or 'bulky' to be strong...

Mira Arya Enthe··52 votes·7,885 views

There is always this confusion that to be strong or a warrior, you have to be immensely bulky. Not true. Most martial artists, soldiers and sports stars I have seen(exceptions like American football) are not walking muscle bags.

I look up a lot to Lynn Hill, a female mountain climber who conquered walls nobody else of her time could and set records still standing. She looked like this http://kevin-heinrich.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/lynn-hill.jpg she is somebody I admire, and certainly is NOT weak. Note this image is during a climb, so muscles are fully pumped with blood.

So the idea that somebody needs to look like Illoai or Pentakill Olaf to be strong, able and ready to fight is 100% wrong. You can look like Shyvana, Riven, Leona or Kayle in figure, and still be plenty strong. And honestly, I much prefer that. I like Illoai, but I sure hope Riot doesn't heed people who demand all female characters be muscular, bulky people in full plate armor.

Both of these comments are excellent:

[{quoted}](name=Hi Im Vasilis,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=zEFaA1FI,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2016-11-01T05:36:37.693+0000)

What you say is called, Fast twitch and Slow twitch muscle fibers. Also, there is a small catch. There is a limit on how big your muscles are before they become a hinderance instead of an asset to you. Although generaly bigger muscles mean more actual force, it's not always the case. Apart from that being different between individuals, you may have higher fiber density in your muscles than me or vise versa, which also means more strength. More muscles means more weight, and More weight means slower movements. To build big mucsles, you only need to feed your muscles a lot and also just do heavy weight lifting and that's the end of it. You will have raw strength but, although you will be using your Fast twitch fibers, you are still gonna be slow because your muscles are heavy and also not trained to twitch fast enough to give you the burst you would need in a fight. In a fight, the one who wins is not by default the strongest, but instead, the one who can overpower the other FASTER. If you need 2 seconds to put out your full force and i can put out my force in 0,5 seconds, even though you might be a 10 and i am a 6, i will destroy you because by the time i need to pound you down to the ground, you will not be able to use even half of your strength.

That's the raw bulk problem. Also, an important factor is fiber toughness. Tougher fibers have increased strength individualy and that way, you can minimize their volume and maximize your strength. And of course, the proper training, to make everything be bursty, Put out a lot of force, really fast. The difference between those 2 muscle states, the bulky one and the smaller but more defined and denser, is the type of training and the intensity of that training.

That's why you see Braum have huge muscles, but this guy is just big and tough, but he is slow as fuck. On the other end, you have Zed, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Udyr, Yi, Pantheon and so on. They are a lot smaller than Braum, but all of them are faster and hit harder, especialy Yi, he is tiny, just look at how thin his figure is.

Also, bulk by iteself doesn't always translate to more strength. Some people have more raw strength with less bulk and you can see them actualy doing heavier weights than others that might be even twice as big. That's because their muscles are more intensively trained and are tougher, trained to lift heavier weights with higher intensity and also with faster, but controled, movements. Fiber toughness is the most important factor in training, it determines how much force you can put out, how fast you can do it and with how much muscle mass required.

Now, for women, things are totaly different. Their hormonic profiles are different than men's. A woman will never get as bulky as a man with no steroids added. They aren't made for that. They can still be pretty strong, but they will not be bulky, and also, they can't keep up with a man's heavy training.

There is a reason why every sport that requires physical effort separates genders and Men only compete with other Men and Women only compete with Women. Like it or not, men are physicaly stronger... Women can get strong, very strong, but not as strong or as bulky. Whenever you see a woman be bulky as fuck, it's steroids. Yes, women can get toned, they can get lean muscle but they will no get bulky, at least not beyond what's needed for their muscle to be defined and that's not bulky at all.

Oh, and Illaoi, she is a monstrosity, i don't consider that thing a woman... Also, shyvana is not human, so she is justified to have immense strength in such a small frame, she is a half dragon :D


{quoted}

Fast twitch and slow twitch muscles are a thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are visibly THAT different. Although Usain Bolt has a bigger upper body than marathon runners, its because a sprinters need more than just muscle in their legs. Sprinters have technique and form for their upper body to maximize the right rotation of their hips, and need their upper body shoulder power to keep up with their lower body power. Compare that to sprint-swimmers and marathon-swimmers, both need full body movement so both end up with very similar body types. If you look at Lance Armstrong's legs, though he was a distance athlete, he had a very developed lower body especially in comparison to his upper body.

Hypertrophy is what happens when youre building muscle mass. The type of muscular hypertrophy that bodybuilders engage in is not the most efficient way to gain strength (though some hypertrophy is present for strength gain). Professional bodybuilders arent actually the best example - they train in a way to increase size, with strength and endurance increases being secondary considerations mostly for progressive overload.

When isolating specifically for strength, high intensity muscle tissue doesnt necessarily grow into hulk-like proportions. Think of Olympic Weightlifting - the 123lb recordholder has a snatch and jerk combo for around 675 pounds. And if you look at the 123lb guy's body (Name: Long Qingquan), you can tell that he lifts, but youd never expect him to be an all time recordholder. That goes for most powerlifters who participate in weight-class events, until you start getting into the heavyweight classes. And even then they dont end up looking like Schwarzenegger in his prime - they still look like average lifters, even though are world-class champions.

Warriors need both fast and slow twitch muscles, but dont necessarily need too much hypertrophy. Warriors arent Bodybuilders, but more like MMA fighters or athletes. Muscle mass is good for some situations (charging your shield into someone is more effective when you have more force), but muscle mass for the sake of mass isnt desirable. Champions like Braum, Olaf, and Tryn (though a case can be made for Tryn) dont look like fighters - they look like bodybuilders. They have overdeveloped chests and large arms making movement (especially cross-body movement) very difficult.

228 Comments

Sharjo51 votes

You have good points. I like the discussion.

But I'd still say that more bulky women is a plus since we have ONE in League out of a cast of 44 women.

Doesn't hurt to have a few extra considering the physical similarities between over 50% of the women.

You can be strong and not huge, but we kinda just lack huge women. A little variety never hurt.

Pierce The Veal22 votes

{quoted}

You have good points. I like the discussion.

But I'd still say that more bulky women is a plus since we have ONE in League out of a cast of 44 women.

Doesn't hurt to have a few extra considering the physical similarities between over 50% of the women.

You can be strong and not huge, but we kinda just lack huge women. A little variety never hurt.

I mean almost all the males in League are either buff as fuck or a slender prince charming.

Sharjo25 votes

Indeed. Such problems have many roots, but we can strive to just have more interesting looking characters that are kinda different from each other. Jhin and Taliyah are good examples of bucking certain trends for League, and it's a nice trend I'd say.

I mean fucking Maokai and Malphite have basically the same body shape, and they're elementals.

Pierce The Veal6 votes

{quoted}

Indeed. Such problems have many roots, but we can strive to just have more interesting looking characters that are kinda different from each other. Jhin and Taliyah are good examples of bucking certain trends for League, and it's a nice trend I'd say.

I mean fucking Maokai and Malphite have basically the same body shape, and they're elementals.

I mean, sure they don't have to be attractive characters, but we shouldn't strive to make characters unattractive on purpose. We should flesh out characters well, and you know what? I like having sexy females in league. They have to be powerful to compete in the league, and pretty damn fit from running around all the time. Most athletes are at least above average in looks, so it's fair that the men and women in the game are the same.

It's the dress code that we need to look at. Almost all of the girls in league are wearing clothing that doesn't seem fit for battle and would probably be more fit for the #rawr bedroom.

Sharjo10 votes

But they don't make characters purposefully unattractive. They just make characters in a way that they think looks interesting to them as designers. Whether or not they're attractive's subjective anyway. The aim is a diverse cast with different shapes, sizes, origins and powers.

No one's arguing that sexy women are bad because it's not true. The argument is that we have so many women who're in the same ball park in terms of facial structure and body shape that they crowd out other shapes and even each other. Most of League's women fall in to the category you're looking for in one way or another since it can be argued they're effectively the same but with different hair styles and clothes. That's not inherently a bad thing but it becomes an issue when three quarters of your cast of women are affected by the issue.

You're seemingly confusing physical attractiveness with Riot deliberately not wanting sexy characters anymore. That's wholly not true. They have their place and always will. It's just that, in regards to female champions, that we have so many relative to other women in the roster. People find Illaoi and Taliyah attractive despite how they're not presented as deliberately sexy in any way.

Also there's no League for them to compete in anymore. It got axed from the canon years ago.

Oakleaf Ranger18 votes

Excuse me? Gragas

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

Excuse me? Gragas

Mmm sexy man.

I Love Roses3 votes

he did say almost

50000000000000004 votes

He's buff as fuck

Daisama1 votes

[deleted]

Sharjo12 votes

How many women in the world have a super model physique? How many are old and as such have a bit of a decrepit form for lack of a better term? How many women are overweight? The body shapes vary because, y'know, humans are highly varied in every aspect. It's not like Illaoi's going to be the only human woman in all of Runeterra who both has that physique and is also reputable enough to become a champion.

I'm not a fan of diversity for the sake of diversity.

When your setting is an entire world having diversity just makes logical sense because not everyone's gonna be the same. Runeterra is a world with a variety of environments and cultures that basically forces this diversity to exist by sheer virtue of how human beings are. Humans are diverse. Representing that isn't a bad thing and Riot's making it work.

Baby Ghoul3 votes

{quoted}

You have good points. I like the discussion.

But I'd still say that more bulky women is a plus since we have ONE in League out of a cast of 44 women.

Doesn't hurt to have a few extra considering the physical similarities between over 50% of the women.

You can be strong and not huge, but we kinda just lack huge women. A little variety never hurt.

Exactly. What's wrong with a little muscle on women? There are many women who are muscular, maybe not Illaoi's size, but maybe some are. That's okay and that should be represented.

I don't want the only variation in the majority of female champions to be their bust size. That is what is stupid.

It is unfortunate that Riot plays around with the models for male champions so much more than they do for female ones. More diversity when it comes to female champions should be encouraged.

I really haven't heard many people say a champion cannot be strong without muscle, and certainly this is a fantasy game. The fantasy genre is chalk full of the same type of female warriors. The genre is basically known for the female breast plate which symbolizes that huge difference in how females are portrayed in our media.

We rarely see the Illaois, so to see it get any sort of back lash is puzzling. Before Illaoi, the closet thing we had were Leona and Sejuani, and that is mostly because of their accompanying design elements. Their body types don't differ from the standard. It's almost 2017, I think it is time for Riot to test the waters a little more and go further.

We shouldn't be basing this off of something stupid like what some guy thinks is attractive, but instead because different options are exciting and fresh and that's what champion design should be about!

Ralanr24 votes

It's not that they need to be bulky, it's that so many of the female champions in league are literally the same body type.

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

So do most the guys. There are differences however, Ahri's body is quite different from Shyvana's for example. However most males AND females in the game have an ideal for their cliche. They match a human form that is desirable and cool. But I'm not sure if we are talking about Poppy vs Elise or Sona vs Kat because they are drastically different.

Ralanr23 votes

I'm more so talking about examples such as Ahri, Ashe, Shyvana, and Irelia. Riot has said that a lot of their female champions are pretty much the same model but with different hairstyles.

As for males, sure we have similarities in game, but while Garen, Darius, and Olaf are beefy, neither match the muscle of Braum. Heck even Olaf is more wide than Tryndamere. Then we have the skinnier male marksmen, some midlaners (Malz and TF are rather thin in comparison) and then we get fat guys like Gragas and arguably Sion (also Urgot).

I don't think skinny characters aren't physically strong. That's not what I'd use to say that we need more bulky female characters. Honestly I'm fine with Illaoi being a bulky female human. But amongst most of the female human cast, there is little diversity in body shape.

I'm looking forward to Riot making more diverse female body shapes in champions. Not because I dislike the average (for this game) female body type, but because I want to see a more diverse group of champions.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

In my opinion, the only body type we are missing when it comes to females in LoL is a overweighted one. What kind of body type are we missing except this?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

i like curvy pretty girls...

Ralanr3 votes

Cute curvy girls would be nice.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

preferably latina dark hair big eyes, bronze skin... short with a nice curvy butt

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

don't give me nightmares

oSEXYPLATYPUSo7 votes

nightmares?

GULAG 4 U13 votes

I don't remember anybody making serious points about feminism or just how women should be on the boards, but your point is valid anyways.

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

It's more something I see in comments on art of Shyvana, Riven, Leona and such. People say things like "Too thin to be a warrior." or stuff, then usually reference how Illaoi is what they should look like.

On the flip side. I wish we had more thin, average looking dudes. I find them more attractive. Like Ezreal, Lucian and Zed look more attractive to me than Olaf or Darius. But that is me.

GreenLore11 votes

The thing is that they all have no visible muscles at all.

You look at that picture of Lynn Hill and although she doesn't look like a bodybuilder,her arms do have visible muscles.

Sharjo11 votes

Indeed. Athletic sure, but muscle? Nah they're pretty lanky.

I mean this may be a tad odd but when Sejuani had a bikini I was less concerned about that and more about how lanky she was for a northern warrior bad ass. Seemed a tad off.

A Superb Villain11 votes

Thankfully, Riot has gotten much better about this. As noted, many of the older female champions not only had the same body type, but tone as well, which conflicted with certain roles. Sejuani would not look nearly as soft as Ahri or Miss Fortune given the flail of literal ice she swings around. Recently, we have seen the likes of Illaoi, Taliyah, and Kalista, all of which physically fit their design.

Taliyah is young and relies on magic to overcome obstacles; she is suitably small, hardly someone I would expect to hold their own in a fist fight.

Kalista is a former soldier, a footman who wielded spears and javelins, cursed with undeath; she's appropriately withered, and all that is left are muscles and bone. She looks like she could impale you with a javelin at 100 meters with ease.

Illaoi carries a damn idol made of metal that she uses to regularly beat people to death. You can bet your ass I would be confused if her arms weren't bigger than my legs.

Riot is making champions that fit their role. We are still going to have thin, slim, or curvy body types, but it will fit their design. Someone who slices people in half with a sword as tall as they are isn't going to have noodle arms.

PermabannedGaren4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=zEFaA1FI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T20:53:00.815+0000)

It's more something I see in comments on art of Shyvana, Riven, Leona and such. People say things like "Too thin to be a warrior." or stuff, then usually reference how Illaoi is what they should look like.

On the flip side. I wish we had more thin, average looking dudes. I find them more attractive. Like Ezreal, Lucian and Zed look more attractive to me than Olaf or Darius. But that is me.

Shyvana, Riven, and Leona have stick limbs.

They are much less muscular than that woman you posted.

Also, you've got it wrong.

It's not that every female character needs to look like Illaoi (I have heard literally no one say this by the way).

It's that not every adult human female needs to have the same soft, weak, totally devoid of muscle build.

I wish Shyvana, Leona, or I guess Riven had a build like the rock climber you posted. They don't though.

They're thin and soft supermodels.

Tormentula12 votes

Annie ?

I don't see anybody complaining about women in this game..

Like every female is well fit to their charater design. Illaoi isn't sexualized cause she's SUPPOSED to be this strong muscler women who believes in hurting over sermons. She's meant to be tough, not a sexy women you take for granted. Shyvana is this inner beast who she unleashes to overpower everyone in her path. Riven has an ancient weapon and her physical appearance gives her the flexibility and mobility to use it.

Taliyah was the last time we had a feminism issue with and it was because she wasn't sexualized enough.. she's 14

Boulderox3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst Spider NA,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=zEFaA1FI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-31T20:50:24.757+0000)

Taliyah was the last time we had a feminism issue with and it was because she wasn't sexualized enough.. she's 14

i thought it was because her nose and eyebrows weren't "female" enough?

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

No they were just odd. Like an extremely exaggerated racial stereotype odd.

Randomonium10 votes

I don't think anyone is doubting she or any other female athlete is strong but let's be honest here, size does matter when it comes to strength. If I lock a 120 pound person in a cage with a 220 pound person in most cases the 220 pound person is going to win. And if the 120 pound person wins it most likely won't be because they out muscled the 220 pound person, it will be because they used superior technique or speed (or both.)

When you're playing a game with minotaurs and void beasts and giant predators being a strong but normal sized person doesn't cut it. You've got to be something extreme in one way or another. Either you've got to have legendary strength or be superhuman fast or have some type of specialized training to stand up to those other mythological champions. It's league of legends, not league of properly proportioned normal people.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

So like the 3 foot tall yordles with zero muscle mass that can knock people hundreds of units away? Gotcha.

Ralanr3 votes

Uhh, pretty sure the hammer is magic cause pure brute strength doesn't make a sculpture of a hammer instantly as it hits someone.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

The very purpose of Poppy's lore is SHE is the strong hero. Read her comic... she puts all the credit into the hammer because she is humble.

Randomonium10 votes

With a mythical enchanted hammer.....

Plus, league is also a game of humor. I mean, Poppy's whole theme is a walking contradiction. She's endlessly searching for a hero when she is the hero. Her being able to knock people halfway across the map dispite her tiny size fits perfectly with her theme and only add to the humor and enjoyment of it.

DorkunedAuras8 votes

Everyone forgets about league's biggest, most badass woman, Rek'Sai

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Because she was nerfed into the ground... :c

DorkunedAuras4 votes

Somehow finds a way to cry despite not having eyes

Immortal spax3 votes

Why are people keep connecting "real world" with "lol world"?

Do i have to remember you that Aurelion Sol is bigger than the rift itself and can destroy a star with his bare hands, but he can still get killed by a rat boy-scout?

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Because people keep connecting real world to fantasy and saying that attractive or hourglass female warriors are a bad thing because it doesn't match what they think they see in real life.

Immortal spax4 votes

What do you mean? Skinny warrior women are the majority, Irelia, Riven Fiora, Poppy, Shy, Leona and Kata, big women are actually the exception, only Illaoi.

And they all fit their them, even if they are skinny, they do damage thanks to something in their lore (shield, magic blade, big hammer, half dragon) the only one that deals damage by brute force, in fact she is big, and in fact she is a juggernaut.

What are you talking about?

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Immortal spax,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=zEFaA1FI,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T21:46:54.733+0000)

What do you mean? Skinny warrior women are the majority, Irelia, Riven Fiora, Poppy, Shy, Leona and Kata, big women are actually the exception, only Illaoi.

And they all fit their them, even if they are skinny, they do damage thanks to something in their lore (shield, magic blade, big hammer, half dragon) the only one that deals damage by brute force, in fact she is big, and in fact she is a juggernaut.

What are you talking about?

Funnily enough Illaoi actually mostly does damage due to her god, Nagakabouros.

Despite being the physically largest human female she is one of the least physical in her offense.

Warlord Dienekes6 votes

Here if anyone tries to suggest that big women are the necessary bit of realism for the game just point them my way and I'll give them a rant on how just about every warrior and soldier Riot has created either is terrible with their weapon, looks ridiculous when compared to actual equipment used, are designed by people with no understanding of ancient fighting, or all of the above.

If you're going to demand realism at least they should be informed on what is actually realistic.

Photos of Ghosts7 votes

XinZhao LET ME FUKEN SLASH YOU WITH THIS SPEAR

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

In fairness to Riot on this one, the Qiang spear does use some slashing techniques. Admittedly, they're mostly tight controlled slashes, or from over the head down. But, yeah, stabbing is generally how you use a spear most of the time.

Big Lincoln2 votes

there's a difference between the body needed to climb a mountain and the body needed to be wearing full armor and/or carrying a weapon the size of you

that said im bias af because i'm into chicks with muscles and want more of them Sejuani pls

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Dude, Sej is included in this, people say she is too thin and shapely. Now that Illoai has been released, go to an art site. Everyone talks about how she is the ideal.

Also carrying yourself up a mountain by tiny cracks and curves for hours while carrying gear. Is typically harder than fighting here and there. Warriors/Soldiers fight for a couple minutes, the march/hike hundreds/thousands more.

Big Lincoln6 votes

i agree that sej is too thin, though, I want muscly waifu

it's also that generally you aren't swinging anything around when you're climbing. in battle you're gonna have to carry at least 100 pounds of armor + whatever weapon you're using -- let's take Sejuani's giant flail, already unwieldy on its own; I don't think she should have the same figure as Ashe, is all

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

If Ashe is drawing at least a 100lbs draw weight bow she would have broader shoulders and stronger back muscles than most the men in the game. But it's fantasy.

MavenSong6 votes

Keep in mind it is an enchanted bow tho... might not have the exact same properties... but yah i see your point :p

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