Would a Champion with a Native American vibe be doable, or would it be too insensitive/offensive?

darkdill·Dec 13, 2017·20 votes·2,874 views

So far we don't have any Champions who have this vibe as a baseline; just a few skins that invoke it. I understand if Riot's afraid of offending anyone, but that doesn't mean such an idea is impossible.

I'm not recommending a carbon copy, but having it be its own thing while making one think of Native American culture would be a better approach. Kinda like how Targon gives off a bit of a Greek/Roman vibe, but remains its own thing.

Also, doing it for the sake of said vibe alone would not be a good start. Having an appropriate kit will be necessary, but for the sake of this topic, I'd like to stick to the thematic part.

110 Comments

ZyraniumDec 13, 201719 votes

Maybe instead of focusing on a specific tribe, why not some legendary creatures that every tribes shares in their mythology ? There is so many tribes and cultures in America

I was thinking about the Wendingo ; maybe it could become a forest protector, a vengeful spirit who kills those who dares steps in its territory ? It would be very close to Ivern but very different too. Horns, fur, claws etc

The Chupacabra would be great too, some indigenous south american myths would be perfect, since we have no faction in Runeterra that represents Mayan/Incan (Indigenous American) civilizations. I think it could be nice to introduce a new faction that shares the same aesthetics as the pre-Colombian civilizations !

Ionia - East Asia/Southern Asia ( See Karma, I assume there is more than just one culture and people in there) Shurima - Ancient Egypt and Middle-East Noxus - Medieval Europe Demacia - Medieval Europe Bilgewater - Colonial Australia/Caribbean vibes (See Illaoi and TF who are indigenous people from the Serpent Isles) **Shadow Isles **- Eastern Europe (?) **Freljord **- Scandinavia/Northern Europe Piltover - Steampunk (Great Britain) Zaun - Steampunk vibes **Targon ** - Greek/Caucasus

Kumungu jungles is yet, badly an unexploited region, that needs to be fleshed out, It's still canon, but imagine how many cool champs that could come from an antique and dangerous jungle ? Yes we need more diversity in cultures and factions !

BerserknurpleDec 17, 20171 votes

Yeah, I think a new region would be the best way to do this properly. Or shipwrecked survivors from an unknown continent far across the sea?

Johnny El RojoDec 13, 201718 votes

If they do something like it, it would be probably a vasthayan champion, seeing the trend of most vasthayan societies being tribal. I would say eagle like, but Xayah and Rakan already fill the bird like spot. Maybe a bison, but then it would be too similar to Alistar .

What other animals do you relate to native americans that would make a good vasthayan champion?

Lord Phazanor Dec 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Johnny El Rojo,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=waFe0qEc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-13T22:17:21.699+0000)

If they do something like it, it would be probably a vasthayan champion, seeing the trend of most vasthayan societies being tribal. I would say eagle like, but and already fill the bird like spot. Maybe a bison, but then it would be too similar to .

What other animals do you relate to native americans that would make a good vasthayan champion?

A lizard man with a calumet. Chameleon or gecko, just to make sure he's different from Renekton. Also the feather "crown" thingie wouldn't be headwear, they would be his actual feathers. Kind of like a Quetzalcoatl, but that's South American :/
Fuck.

AbiwonKenabiDec 15, 20174 votes

Quetzalcoatl is Mesoamerican; think Aztecs or Mayans, who lived around central America, on and around the Yucatan Peninsula. They are technically Native Americans.

I think people generally associate "Native Americans" with this singular idea, but there were many tribes through what's now Modern US, all with their own distinct culture. There's Mesoamerican culture, then there's the nomadic herding tribes of the central plains of the US, there's the Adobe housing tribes of the New Mexico area, the long house tribes of the New England area, and so on.

Edit: I was down voted because...?

Lord Phazanor Dec 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Quetzalcoatl is Mesoamerican; think Aztecs or Mayans, who lived around central America, on and around the Yucatan Peninsula. They are technically Native Americans.

I think people generally associate "Native Americans" with this singular idea, but there were many tribes through what's now Modern US, all with their own distinct culture. There's Mesoamerican culture, then there's the nomadic herding tribes of the central plains of the US, there's the Adobe housing tribes of the New Mexico area, the long house tribes of the New England area, and so on.

Dunno if it's because in France it's all called (or thought) differently, but the "Indians" are the cliché North American bowmen with feathercrowns.
South American civilization aren't part of the Indians (to us at least). And since Quetzalcoatl is South American, it seemed thematically far from Indians to me.

AbiwonKenabiDec 16, 20174 votes

Quetzalcoatl is NOT South America: it's Mesoamerican cultures, which is still technically in what we consider North America (the term "mesoamerica" more refers to the culture rather than geographic region) and include civilizations like the Aztecs, the Maya, the Olmec, and others. It does NOT include the Inca, who were from South America proper.

I know what you mean when you say "cliché Indians" but that was sort of my point, the stereotype never really existed and probably pulls from several different tribes. The classic stereotypical Native American "look" is probably the Sioux, but then there are elements like horse-riding that are more common to Great Plains tribes like the Cheyenne. And there are also Native Americans that don't fall into the stereotype at all. There are a lot of cool Native American cultures beyond just the stereotype is all I'm trying to say.

Lord Phazanor Dec 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Quetzalcoatl is NOT South America: it's Mesoamerican cultures, which is still technically in what we consider North America (the term "mesoamerica" more refers to the culture rather than geographic region) and include civilizations like the Aztecs, the Maya, the Olmec, and others. It does NOT include the Inca, who were from South America proper.

I know what you mean when you say "cliché Indians" but that was sort of my point, the stereotype never really existed and probably pulls from several different tribes. The classic stereotypical Native American "look" is probably the Sioux, but then there are elements like horse-riding that are more common to Great Plains tribes like the Cheyenne. And there are also Native Americans that don't fall into the stereotype at all. There are a lot of cool Native American cultures beyond just the stereotype is all I'm trying to say.

So Horus isn't NOT Egyptian, he's African.

BerserknurpleDec 17, 20172 votes

That's not at all the same. The Aztec/Maya are literally not from South America. They are North American. The Inca were genuinely South American. Calling Quetzalcoatl a South American god is literally the same as calling Zeus an African god. In fact, Greece is geographically much closer to Africa than the Aztec were to South America. They are from completely different continents.

The Incan pantheon is totally unrelated to the Aztec/Maya pantheon. Their main god is Inti, the sun god, but there were many others like Viracocha, Mamaquilla and Pachamama.

The "Indian" stereotype that is often thought of with tomahawks and feather headdresses and bonepipe armor and totem poles never existed. It takes parts from the Great Plains tribes, the Algonquian tribes of the east coast, and totem poles from 3000 miles away in the Pacific Northwest.

As far as a Native American inspired champion in LoL, I hope they wouldn't make a vastayan. Vastayans (and Ionia in general) are mainly inspired by East Asian cultures, and it would feel cheap to shoehorn any American cultures in.

Illaoi was perfect, as she didn't directly copy any particulars, but took inspiration from Mayan, Caribbean, and Polynesian cultures with her visuals, and even the language they created for Buhru. Either more champions from Buhru would be cool, or shipwrecked survivors from an unknown continent could be really cool as well.

AbiwonKenabiDec 18, 20171 votes

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but there are just a ton of misconceptions about Native American cultures. No one confuses Roman and Greece, and they had a practically identical pantheon of gods. The Inca are always lopped in with Mesoamerican cultures, but this is just false, they did NOT have the same cultural or religious practices at all; things like Quetzalcoatl (known as Kukulkan to the Maya), blood letting, reliance on maize agriculture and more was ALL shared by Mesoamerican cultures. Not to say the Maya and the Olmec had identical cultures, but they were very VERY close and one directly influenced the next and so on.

The same goes for the northern Native American cultures. I and Berserknurple below (and I'm sure others have as well) have pointed out that the "cliché Indian" doesn't exist, and instead drew from many many tribes. Since sensitivity is one of the topics of this discussion, it seems relevant to discuss that what people want (stereotypical Native American) will probably not be sensitive enough. Instead of drawing from an amalgamation of stereotypes, it might be better for Riot to create something new that is inspired by a tribe or two(NOT the stereotype), like they did with someone like Illaoi or one of the Ionian Champions (who are mostly inspired by various East Asian cultures; some, like Yasuo are inspired more by one in particular, in this case Japan).

Also, your statement is just plain false and doesn't make sense. Horus IS Egyptian, which is a culture in Africa so he is technically African as well. However, I would argue ancient Egypt had more culturally in common with Middle Eastern cultures, much like the Maya and the Aztec had a lot in common with each other, but I will admit that I don't know a lot about the history of the Middle Eastern area, so I couldn't say for sure.

Lord Phazanor Dec 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but there are just a ton of misconceptions about Native American cultures. No one confuses Roman and Greece, and they had a practically identical pantheon of gods. The Inca are always lopped in with Mesoamerican cultures, but this is just false, they did NOT have the same cultural or religious practices at all; things like Quetzalcoatl (known as Kukulkan to the Maya), blood letting, reliance on maize agriculture and more was ALL shared by Mesoamerican cultures. Not to say the Maya and the Olmec had identical cultures, but they were very VERY close and one directly influenced the next and so on.

The same goes for the northern Native American cultures. I and Berserknurple below (and I'm sure others have as well) have pointed out that the "cliché Indian" doesn't exist, and instead drew from many many tribes. Since sensitivity is one of the topics of this discussion, it seems relevant to discuss that what people want (stereotypical Native American) will probably not be sensitive enough. Instead of drawing from an amalgamation of stereotypes, it might be better for Riot to create something new that is inspired by a tribe or two(NOT the stereotype), like they did with someone like Illaoi or one of the Ionian Champions (who are mostly inspired by various East Asian cultures; some, like Yasuo are inspired more by one in particular, in this case Japan).

Also, your statement is just plain false and doesn't make sense. Horus IS Egyptian, which is a culture in Africa so he is technically African as well. However, I would argue ancient Egypt had more culturally in common with Middle Eastern cultures, much like the Maya and the Aztec had a lot in common with each other, but I will admit that I don't know a lot about the history of the Middle Eastern area, so I couldn't say for sure.

You are being nitpicky.
The south american natives have much more in in common than they have with the north american natives. Grouping them together but not with the north indians is the same as grouping the romans and greeks but not the egyptians. Even though they were close and shared things (even gods), clearly egyptians are way more different. If you really wanted to be a smartass, you could even say that "there are just a ton of misconceptions about Egyptian culture" as in from one city to another, their culture changed vastly. So the word "Egyptian" is wrongly used because it wasn't a single unfified culture.
See how this reasoning makes no sense?
Northern american natives, even though they had differences between tribes, can be described as one people the same way ancient greeks are described as one, even though they clearly weren't one people.
So yea, the indian cliché exists for a reason, and it's not a misconception, you just believe people are dumb. People do realize what indians were, it's just way more convenient to use a term everybody understands.
Now can we go back to the point?
"A Quetzalcoatl champion wouldn't be a good idea because it gives a South American vibe instead of Idian vibe, which is what OP is talking about".
God why do people have to nitpick.

AbiwonKenabiJan 4, 20181 votes

You can say I'm being nitpicky all you want, but it's just false. Even if you are not grouping Mesoamerican culture with more Northern Native Americans, grouping them with the Incans of South America is also factually incorrect. Mesoamericans have their own term because they had more in common with each other than any other native group on the two continents period. Incans don't share gods with Mesoamerican cultures, they don't share religious or cultural practices. They are different entirely.

The term "Mesoamerica" is used specifically to group these similar cultures together. The Olmec, the Toltec, the Zapotecs, the Maya, the Aztecs and more all shared similar characteristics, most of which stemmed from Olmec culture. They had a similar pantheon of gods, stepped pyramids, reliance on maize agriculture, use of two calendars, writing systems, ritualistic sacrifice like blood letting and human sacrifice and a few other characteristics I'm missing. The Inca did NOT share these characteristics. To use your example, it would be like saying Ancient Egypt is a Hellenistic civilization. It wasn't.

I'll concede that grouping Mesoamerica with more northern Native Americans is wrong too, but that doesn't mean that grouping the Inca with them is somehow correct. They were not South American, the Inca were not Mesoamerican. I don't know why someone would argue that it doesn't matter and would rather continue to spread incorrect information.

Lord Phazanor Jan 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You can say I'm being nitpicky all you want, but it's just false. Even if you are not grouping Mesoamerican culture with more Northern Native Americans, grouping them with the Incans of South America is also factually incorrect. Mesoamericans have their own term because they had more in common with each other than any other native group on the two continents period. Incans don't share gods with Mesoamerican cultures, they don't share religious or cultural practices. They are different entirely.

The term "Mesoamerica" is used specifically to group these similar cultures together. The Olmec, the Toltec, the Zapotecs, the Maya, the Aztecs and more all shared similar characteristics, most of which stemmed from Olmec culture. They had a similar pantheon of gods, stepped pyramids, reliance on maize agriculture, use of two calendars, writing systems, ritualistic sacrifice like blood letting and human sacrifice and a few other characteristics I'm missing. The Inca did NOT share these characteristics. To use your example, it would be like saying Ancient Egypt is a Hellenistic civilization. It wasn't.

I'll concede that grouping Mesoamerica with more northern Native Americans is wrong too, but that doesn't mean that grouping the Inca with them is somehow correct. They were not South American, the Inca were not Mesoamerican. I don't know why someone would argue that it doesn't matter and would rather continue to spread incorrect information.

Not only you're two weeks late, but I wonder if I can submit this to /r/iamverysmart. The content sure is in line with that's there, but I don't know if they accept a post from LoL Boards.
Anyways, you can say "it's false" as much as you want. You're a random on the net that tries to be (and is) pedantic. Have fun trolling someone else, I give up.

Pierce The VealDec 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Johnny El Rojo,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=waFe0qEc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-13T22:17:21.699+0000)

If they do something like it, it would be probably a vasthayan champion, seeing the trend of most vasthayan societies being tribal. I would say eagle like, but and already fill the bird like spot. Maybe a bison, but then it would be too similar to .

What other animals do you relate to native americans that would make a good vasthayan champion?

Turtle. Ugh that's udyr right?

Wolf. Hmm. That's also straying too close hmm.

Rabbit. Make a champion that's an aids ass rabbit that is hyper mobile and shit. X.x

Eternal791Dec 14, 20174 votes

It could be a dear-like vastyan based on some depictions of the wendigo; since that's a native american legend.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 14, 20178 votes

There is a big difference between Cultural Appropriation and Cultural Appreciation.

Cultural Appropriation = https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*1tQtDRmlXxyBq4PvcgWzhQ.jpeg

Turning a culture into a costume.

Cultural Appreciation = https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1000/1*UcX_u8FzoX4gFk5wD0wkRA.jpeg

Giving a NATIVE AMERICAN Character a Native american skin in a video game.

You make a character who is 'native' but exihibts no aspects or traits of being so is grounds for outrage. You make a character who is native and exihibts traits and aspects of their tribes or heritage whilst still being respectful of said culture is fine.

God Illaoi is a perfect example of Riot taking a native culture (In Illaoi's case traditional polynesian) and turning it into a champion.

There is nothing wrong with using cultures or other countries in character design as long as you're not just ignorant or belligerent to the fact the things you are using are from ACTUAL Cultures that exist, and not just 'silly designs'.

MaidensKnightDec 14, 20176 votes

No offense, But pharah from overwatch is Egyptian not Indigenous descent. Other than that great comment!!!!

NiyumeDec 13, 20173 votes

I could imagine some kind of druid type champ from the jungles giving the whole Indian vibe.

And plenty of shows / cartoons / movies / games / books have made a parody or reference to the whole Indian thing, so I wouldn't worry about it being offensive. It's a common stereotype / cliche thing.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOODec 13, 20172 votes

I mean, just because it’s a common stereotype doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s implementation would be tasteful.

NiyumeDec 13, 20173 votes

Yeah, so you'd have to do it in a way that makes sense.

Like, imagine the Tauren from WoW. They're obviously Indian, but I wouldn't say it's distasteful.

JacctheInsomniacDec 14, 20171 votes

[deleted]

NiyumeDec 14, 20174 votes

Psh, you're just being picky. You know what I mean. :P

Tauren = Tasteful

Looney Toons = Distasteful (but not overly offensive)

HalcyonDwellerDec 13, 20179 votes

http://maps.maphill.com/india/location-maps/gray-map/highlighted-continent/gray-location-map-of-india-highlighted-continent.jpg

Indians are from India, which is a part of South Asia. This discussion is about Native Americans - the original inhabitants of the North American Continent.

RalanrDec 13, 20178 votes

Most Americans will call native Americans Indians.

purplekitty428Dec 14, 20174 votes

well thats just dumb lol, the two are not related at all

The SoulforgedDec 14, 201710 votes

Columbus's fault. He thought he landed in India.

SSShutTheDuckUpDec 14, 20177 votes

And became a metaphor for map awareness

BerserknurpleDec 17, 20171 votes

While not wrong, many "native Americans" actually prefer to be called Indians, its not really an ignorance thing anymore (although it certainly was when Columbus decided on it)

purplekitty428Jan 17, 20181 votes

I've never heard of any native american wanting to be called indian, thats interesting. Why do they like being incorrectly labeled?

THE RlVER KlNGDec 14, 20171 votes

don't confuse columbus's ignorance with what they really are

RalanrDec 14, 20175 votes

I don’t. I’m just saying that’s what they are referred to after years of thanksgiving specials.

NiyumeDec 14, 20172 votes

"Native Americans" are not native in any way. In fact, no one is native to America.

American Indians are largely of Mongol / Central-Asian descent, and crossed over into America on an ice bridge between Russia and Alaska around 2,000 years ago (judging by the oldest remains / buildings we have).

However, there are Nordic settlements on the east coast of America that predate the American Indians by 800-1500 years. There are also remains with red hair in the south that predate the Nordic settlements by another thousand years (American Indians do not have red hair). Recently we uncovered Kennewick Man in the Columbia River (and hey, my uncle happens to live right there, so I saw the digsite), who was Caucasian (presumably European) and also predates American Indians by a few hundred years.

So please, don't bring the whole "native" crap. If anyone is "native" it's Nordic peoples or early Europeans, since they were in America long before the American Indians were.

HalcyonDwellerDec 14, 20171 votes

In summary: "we're both wrong"

OK then. Why didn't you call them Mongols or Central-Asians?

NiyumeDec 14, 20172 votes

Because I don't think that's proper. While they technically are Mongol, that's like calling me Irish (or any of the other things I'm made up of), even though I'm so far removed from Ireland / Spain / France / Wherever. I might have Irish roots, but that doesn't mean I'm straight up Irish, 'cause I have a different culture, live in a different place, all that. I'm just... American.

So, while they are of Asian decent, I just say American Indian. They have a different (although similar) culture than Mongols, even if they share the same blood.

If they were willing to drop the whole "native" pretense, we could come up with a name other than Indian, but the tribal leaders like milking the system.

HalcyonDwellerDec 14, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Because I don't think that's proper. While they technically are Mongol, that's like calling me Irish (or any of the other things I'm made up of), even though I'm so far removed from Ireland / Spain / France / Wherever. I might have Irish roots, but that doesn't mean I'm straight up Irish, 'cause I have a different culture, live in a different place, all that. I'm just... American.

So, while they are of Asian decent, I just say American Indian. They have a different (although similar) culture than Mongols, even if they share the same blood.

Wow alright, you had my respect. But then you lost it:

If they were willing to drop the whole "native" pretense, we could come up with a name other than Indian, but the tribal leaders like milking the system.

That is an extremely biased and limited view point. Only the visible tribal leaders are the ones milking the system, because they are the ones who adapted to it and were successful in it. Anyone who didn't wallowed in poverty while society slowly closed in around their communities.

Don't even start with me about how they are somehow the people in the wrong.

flibitydooDec 14, 20173 votes

I always for some reason felt like Kindred was the native american themed champ

no idea why however

perhaps it's the mask perhaps it's the forest that their theme suggests that they work in perhaps it's the bow perhaps it's the name "dance of arrows" perhaps it's the animal spirit esque theme that aboriginal stories always explain

ChuShoeDec 14, 20173 votes

Kindred With her masks feels very... not specifically native american, but very tribal.

The last thing I want is for Rito to rehash their lore into a tribal story rather than her really cool thematic of death and final choice (and I say this because of what happened to varus), accompanied with the little bit of irony within the masks (lamb wears wolf's mask, and wolf wears lambs mask, whichever one you choose you're still going to die.)

IAintDariusDec 13, 20172 votes

I love how the mere idea of native americans existing is offensive.

PlacentasDec 13, 20177 votes

No, it's the idea that they have been nothing but persecuted and mocked ever since Europeans came into contact with them to present day.

A year ago Native Americans were fighting for the right to their drinking water and land and lost to the pipeline. Almost exactly a year later that pipeline breaks and spills oil.

It's very recent unlike modeling Pantheon over Spartans.

JezboDec 14, 20172 votes

Why would that be insensitive to make a champion's theme akin to Native American culture? It'd be poor taste if it was a lazy concept for sure though. Can't just give someone a headdress and feathers.

darkdillDec 14, 20171 votes

Like you said, some people might consider it poor taste.

GreenLoreDec 14, 20173 votes

But why? Sure terrible things happened to the native americans,but that doesn't mean that putting something inspired by native american traditions is automatically insensitive. If anything it'd be more insensitive to just ignore their culture and act like it doesn't exist.