[Lore Discussion] Jericho Swain and the Direction of Noxus: "Monsters today, Heroes tomorrow."

ModCaptainMårvelous··33 votes·11,741 views

I based a lot of this off the special interactions, as I feel it tells me the most about his character, but if we find new or interesting lore when the PBE updates for his longform stuff, this will be updated. That out of the way, we got Swain's rework and...frankly, it paints Swain and Noxus in a very interesting, telling light. To be blunt: Noxus is no longer the bad guy. They're the guy who gets the job done.

#Swain's New Lore: What we know.

"I have seen this place. A vision...a battle..."

Swain, for as far as we know, is still the Grand General of Noxus supplanting Darkwill after his convinent demise. From the looks of it, he still keeps ties with the Black Rose and more. We also know that Swain lost his arm to Irelia during the Ionia-Noxus war and that he's supplanted it with the demonic-empowered arm.

This will be updated with new color lore.

#Swain's Implications: A Tyrant out of Necessity

"People often ask for a hero when a villain is what they truly need."

The most fascinating thing I can gleam from Swain's lore, appearance, personality and quotes is that he's not doing this out of hatred. He doesn't loath Demacia. He doesn't despise Bilgewater. Hell, I don't think he even holds ill will to Ionia despite losing to them. What I do see, however, is a man who is acting out of things he knows. Things that are deeper threats.

Take a look at some of his quotes:

"All roads lead to Noxus...but all visions to Demacia." "We both move pawns in a grand game. And look at that; I'm winning." "They fight the mist above the seas, never looking beneath it." "A pattern, spreading. It has learned to be alive." "A king remains in the mist and another marches."

From these quotes, while it could be that Swain gleams them from champion soul taking, it could be inferred that Swain is reading deeper into the lay of the world. He knows things about Runeterra that others would soon forget. Things that require a united front. It also ties into things like Noxus's rapid expansion across the world and the swelling army. Swain knows that trials await and he's preparing the world for them. But the most important part is from his own teaser trailer. Which we'll get into next.

#Swain as a Person: No Hiding the Demon.

"Your trust may be misplaced, old friend, but it is appreciated."

Swain makes no efforts to hide that what he's doing is barbaric, cruel and monstrous. Everything he does is done out of necessity for both himself and Noxus. These are most apparent in his lines with LeBlanc but can also be seen elsewhere. Swain is blunt and forthcoming: What he's doing is, for lack of a better word, shitty. But it's something that has to be done. Swain understands on some level that this world won't survive if you all try to hold hands and be a goody goody two-shoes about it. Rather, he's going to be the person who is seen as a tyrant but remembered as a hero. Just take a look at his reveal quote:

"I have the vision to see what others cannot. The monsters of today will be the heroes of tomorrow. And by my hand will Noxus rise once more."

However, this also means that Swain understands this will only be for the victor. He has to win. He has to be the one standing on the hill at the end of the day. To accomplish this, he has to do everything in his power to make sure that Noxus's flag is the one still waving, even when the world is crumbling around him. This also means he has to keep some less-than-kind bedfellows like the Black Rose. It also means he could discard friends (such as Darius) in a heartbeat. No matter what, in the end, he has to win.

#End Takes

Swain represents the new direction of Noxus. A nation that is not evil for the sake of being evil but recognizes what it takes to win. They're a nation of cuthtroats, backstabbers and cruelty but a nation that recognizes backstabbing today means a hero's welcome tomorrow. I, for one, am excited to see what other champs either fit into this new vision of Noxus or rebel against it.

With that said, feel free to share your thoughts and your own takeaways from Swain's new look and voice.

85 Comments

RiotWhren34 votes

One of my favorite things is you guys reading into the details of everything. Basically everything in this post. I sincerely hope you guys will enjoy what's coming soon for Noxus lore!

edoxbox17 votes

TRIGGERED Noxus Update !?! Is this the real world ?

RiotWhren19 votes

Well, in the other thread, someone did note that the Noxus icon was uploaded to PBE :)

T8 Speedwagon4 votes

Please tell me elise will get some lore news :3

Tattersall12 votes

Just want to say, it seems to me that Swain's relationship with LeBlanc is exactly like I hoped it would be.

"I suppose this makes us enemies with benefits"

It seems to me like Swain is manipulating the Black Rose to further his goals while the Black Rose is manipulating Swain to further its goals, but both factions are completely aware that the other is manipulating them, and they're both fine with it 'cause they know that all they can really do is prepare for the fallout that happens when they stop being useful to each other because the other side really is useful enough to be worth the risk. I love it.

Darius Strada10 votes

He knows things about Runeterra that others would soon forget. Things that require a united front. It also ties into things like Noxus's rapid expansion across the world and the swelling army. Swain knows that trials await and he's preparing the world for them.

If this ends up being true, although kinda gray, Swain has the potential to be one of the greatest heroes and characters in the entire LoL lore by uniting Runeterra in one single banner and creating a strong army to deal with things like the Void, the Black Mist, the World Runes.

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

The issue there is that Swain has to be successful. The other issue is that until he proves that he's been a good guy all along, he's doing some really heinous things in the name of Noxus's prosperity and safety.

Stars Shaper5 votes

What else can you expect in a place with the ideology of Noxus?

That place doesn't allow you to rise in power (and maybe not even to live peacefully) if you are the archetypal good guy. You will have to get a lot on your hands if you want to rule.

Stars Shaper10 votes

Swain not having lines towards Mordekaiser is quite saddening as he would be one of the major threats to Noxus (and not just some generalistic Black Mist champion).

Johnny El Rojo11 votes

Well, there is his quote to the Shadow Isles champions of: "A king remains in the mist, and another marches." I think that that's a reference to the Ruined King as the one in the mist, and Mordekaiser as the one that marches.

Stars Shaper5 votes

Yes but that's all and it only implies some kind of conflict between the SI champions.

Mordekaiser main objective right now is getting his throne back. And the Immortal Bastion is exactly in the center of Noxus.

Whyte Lyon4 votes

Well then perhaps others were wrong about Morde being the "coming darkness". It's only ever been a (plausible) theory, but not really meant to be interpreted literally just yet.

Raxistaicho1 votes

Mordekaiser's different from the other SI champions, if I remember right. He's udead, but he wasn't from the islands before they were corrupted, so he's different from the others (who are all slaves to the Ruined King.)

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

He got brought back after being permanently killed during the Ruination.

Decrit1 votes

Yeah, but that's it. he is not beholden from the black mist, simply his acolytes gathered on the shadow isles for obvious reasons.

Malicious Metal6 votes

Yeah, wish there was at least ONE special interaction between them. Especially with Morde being on the move.

ULTRAF0RCE2 votes

I think it might hint at the fact that even Swain doesn't know everything and this could suggest that no mortal is aware of the true history of the Bastion

4th3t0s5 votes

Also even though there isn't a clear timeframe for when it happened, Veigar's imprisonment could afford some clarity as well, especially if it happened under Swain's rule. Actually, considering Swain's connection to demons and yordles being some kind of "planar" creatures I'm amazed he doesn't have any interactions with them at all.

Mordepool3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=vPGH9Hhy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-24T00:10:38.929+0000)

Swain not having lines towards Mordekaiser is quite saddening as he would be one of the major threats to Noxus (and not just some generalistic Black Mist champion).

Disappointing not unexpected

Friendly Ram8 votes

I love his throne comment, nice humor there.

Craft Zeppelin8 votes

Also loved the Draven comment. Hillarious stuff.

Friendly Ram8 votes

I'm honestly surprised he's so friendly with draven.

Craft Zeppelin3 votes

Gotta pay up your good executioner if you are a dictator.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

He does have a comment about Darius and Draven being pretty much his only helpers when he was having problems at some point, better cherish the only two people that actually helped him when everyone else left him for dead x)

He just doesn't appreciate Draven´s drinking habits.

Nylisa3 votes

I love your interpretation of this. but im not sure if i actually agree with Swain here! it raises so many questions ( depending on wether all the information mentioned here turn out to be accurate)

You keep mentioning "get it done" "needs to be done" "wont survive if you try to hold hands" what are these actions that needs to be done? he sees the world as black and white as that? that "winning" is everything? what he is trying to do?

What is his vision? and ultimately whats his agenda? save the world? so at the end he is the good guy? if not then world domination? united Runettera under his banner which means he is after power and control?

Whats the point of winning a war when there is no one left to celebrate it?! and what does this means "but a nation that recognizes backstabbing today means a hero's welcome tomorrow"?backstabbing into what end? doing such a thing will forever mark you as a tyrant who do anything in the name of survival not a hero.

I think you giving these cruel backstabbers and cutthroats a bit too much credit, making it about more than just their personal gains or lust for whatever it is that they are looking for.it is clear that many of them are here just for their own achievements! and not for the better of the world or their nation. thats a plus for Swain to use those to further his own goal.

My guess is that Swain wants unity through domination and that is not going to work under current circumstances, not with the Void knocking the great gates of Runettera down.Noxus is powerful and big but there are too many power houses at play here,too many oppositions for him.

Time is short,Runeterra is vast, you'd think holding hand is actually the only way to get through something as terrible as Void.

This land is going burn while kings like Jarvan and grand generals like Swain are bickering over domination,thinking they got what it takes to "get things done" ! that makes no one a hero it makes them just another one of many leaders who thought they knew better as their nation burned around them!

i just LOVE this! this makes for an amazing read and a great story to follow!

midnight oil243 votes

The issue with handholding is that many of the nations of Runeterra are so self absorbed that there's little chance of them agreeing on anything. Demacia is super xenophobic, with one of its highest ranking soldiers even saying that there was no point in trying to understand the other nations, it's just demacia vs. the rest of the world. Bilgewater has its share of problems. Piltover is full of upper class people who seem to primarily only care about themselves, and Zaun isn't even really a unified city. Azir, meanwhile, is still trying to make Shurima into a promised land while also fighting Xerath and Renekton. Ionia might possibly join with others, but there are still questions about them, especially surrounding the whole Jhin issue. Mount Targon doesn't seem to care much about the rest of the world. They're anti-void, but they seem to be split into several cults, many of which seem to take issue with anyone voicing an opinion that goes against the norm. And Freljord... well, we know what's going on with Freljord

Swain's way of doing things may not be perfect, but from what we've seen of the rest of Runeterra, at least he has an idea of how to unite them. Swain actually seems far more likely to try dominating another country than Demacia, I think. Jarvan and other Demacians don't really seem to relish the thought of going outside their borders. There's scary magic people out there, you know.

Again, I'm not saying Swain's way of doing things is perfect, far from it, but he at least is working towards his goals. Diplomacy seems like a lost cause on Runeterra, he seems to be taking the approach of uniting the world through the only language everyone appears to understand: overwhelming might.

You make good points, though. I think that the way you're approaching it would work in the real world. Runeterra just seems to be a very different place, stuff that works here just might not work for them.

Nylisa2 votes

Yes what you said about each nation is exactly my point as well, too many different views too many different ideas its just like real world, each nation want to do their own thing or just dont care. Noxus is no different either, it is only their leader who see things differently but is that enough?! dictatorship tends to backfire at you at somepoint.

You'd think maybe "if you dont come to some sort of_ temporary_ agreement with others,you all gonna perish" would be enough for them to come off their high horses against something such as Void but no, seems like the alternative is what Swain has in mind. the thing is we cant confirm that threat of void is actually happening and if its happening, you would be a mad man who scream the end of times in streets of Runettera. making people believe ,would be a massive challenge of its own.

Although i understand what Swain wants to do and i relish the thought that at atleast someone knows something big is coming, i dont think sheer overwhelming might is going to work here, because of so many powerful players in Runettera. he need more than Might, because when bloodbath of domination ends how many soldiers are left to fight off whatever is coming next?!

About what you said regarding this approach,that it would work in real world and not Runettera, im not sure how. i mean we do have records in our history that nations who do not agree with each other come to terms to fight off something bigger. and instead of Galio and other Demigods we have Nuclear bombs and weapons of mass destruction xD

midnight oil241 votes

Not everyone gets along in our world, yes, but some groups do get along. We have the U.N. which at least tries to have people working together, and even the U.S. and Russia have worked together on space stuff. There's a history of cooperation. Yes, there are wars, but there are also truces and alliances.

Runeterra seems to have no alliances. It seems more like a bunch of different places that all just want their own thing with no regard for the others. Hell, Demacia especially seems like an easy target for any coming darkness since they seem to almost refuse to leave the safety of their forest, instead sitting and defending. I think that what Swain could do it conquer some places, a slightly easier task since no one is united, and then once that happens he could use his new power to force a peace meeting of some sort. He'd probably just go the domination route, but he could still try for some level of peace.

I think that, in the context of Runeterra and its history at least, Swain's plan has some degree of merit. I think a good display of force is what's necessary to make people listen, trying to warn the other nation states seems sort of like trying to get some screaming children to listen: it's not going to work. If Swain can prove some degree of power, it would probably be easier to get others to listen to him.

DragonIgnis2 votes

{quoted} #End Takes

Swain represents the new direction of Noxus. A nation that is not evil for the sake of being evil but recognizes what it takes to win. They're a nation of cuthtroats, backstabbers and cruelty but a nation that recognizes backstabbing today means a hero's welcome tomorrow. I, for one, am excited to see what other champs either fit into this new vision of Noxus or rebel against it.

With that said, feel free to share your thoughts and your own takeaways from Swain's new look and voice.

Noxus has always been focused on power. Power is the only thing that matters in Noxian society. The Swain update hasn't changed Noxus.

Demacia and Noxus aren't supposed to represent good and evil. They're closer to authoritarianism and anarchy. Both sides are morally gray.

Swain's update has defined Swain's personal reasons to desire power. However, the narrative team has kept the core of Noxus the same.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

The thing is, Noxus has been about power but it has tended to be a "cruel" take on power. Take the old lore for example:

  • Swain kills Darkwill to ascend.
  • Swain publically beheads those who disagree with him.
  • Swain does this because FUCK DEMACIA
  • WOOOOOOOOO NOXUUUUUUUUUUUUUS

Noxus had a tendency to be a caricature of the bad, evil nation compared to Demacia's good, pure nation. Good examples of Noxians (Riven, Talon, Kat) tended to be outcasts or "rebelling" against Noxus. Now, it's a bit more grey.

DragonIgnis2 votes
  • You've only listed Swain, someone who isn't representative of all of Noxus
  • Murder is relatively commonplace everywhere in Runeterra

Demacia and Noxus were meant to be gray from the start.

  • Demacia drafts all its men into the army
  • People tended to die simply during training which is why Demacia is always outnumbered
  • Rule breakers are executed (no minor punishments)
  • Demacia is the most xenophobic nation in Runeterra
  • Woo Demacia. (What was this supposed to mean???)
ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

The problem is when you start comparing other Noxus champions. Remember: Season 1/2/3-ish

  • Kat/Talon? Essentially rogue agents and have been seen in old and new lore as counters to Swain.
  • Darius and Draven, bloodthirsty executioners in old lore who got a bit of a clean-up in new lore.
  • LB and Vladimir, magic users who are pretty darn evil and were painted as such.

etc.

Comparatively, Demacia (Despite the possible under-the-hood evils) was always seen as the good guy. The shining beacon. Hell, there wasn't even subtle undertones of them being evil. They were just good guys. I know this because a huge amount of stuff you list as negatives are things added in the Demacia update last year.

Demacia and Noxus might have been aimed to be grey from the start but it didn't show until the lore updates. Before that, it might as well be Superman and friends vs. the ultra-evil corp of evil.

midnight oil243 votes

Yep. Old lore Demacia was the super peacekeeper nation in Runeterra that always seemed to be super nice to everyone. Demacia now is sort of a combo of old Demacia and Old Noxus. Noxus used to be the super xenophobic place while Demacia was all peace and love (except for with Noxus, but Noxus was so comically evil that everyone hated them except Zaun).

It was basically good guys vs. bad guys. Now it's more complicated, and Swain, just from what we've seen, has made a far more compelling argument for following him than the Demacia update gave for following Demacia.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Noxus was never xenophobic though? They´d take in anyone as long as the person was good at something and willing to work for the nation.

What Noxus and it's leadership was and is however, is ambitious, ruthless and extremely harsh on enforcing their rules and leadership on those they beat.

Kinda like a dark magical roman empire, which focuses a lot on merits and skills, particularly after Swain took over.

midnight oil241 votes

Back in Old Noxus, during the JoJ, there was an article talking about Noxus' xenophobic attitude towards Yordles. Noxus actually did have issues with outside powers. It's implied that that was why Swain seemed to hide a lot of his powers until the battle at Kalamanda, and even after that rarely using them. Noxians weren't super trusting of outsiders, and who's powers were more "outsider" than a guy turning into a giant demon bird?

I support Noxus, for the most part. I'm not arguing against them. But I'm also not going to deny that they were almost comically evil at times in the Old Lore, outside of a few things with Kat. They stirred up trouble for no reason, treated other nations poorly (they were, admittedly, treated poorly by the other nations as well), and were clearly just meant to be a dark and evil foil to demacia. I appreciate the ruthlessness and ambition that it demands of its citizens, but I'm also going to point out that there were a ton of flaws to it in its old version. It was just a super evil place. It didn't feel a lot like a dark magical roman empire to me because they seemed to just do a lot of bad with no good. They had reasons for invading Ionia, but they were self-serving and probably self-destructive, while new noxus seems to have a much more focused goal and idea of what its place in the world is. It doesn't even feel as much like a counterpart to Demacia, though maybe that'll be proven wrong. It actually feels like its own nation state with its own merits and flaws instead of an evil foil that, even if it was cooler than demacia, was still seemingly just a place to throw the magical bad guys into.

RiotWhren6 votes

This is correct; Old old noxus -- JoJ era -- was xenophobic against anyone who was strange to them. This was skull mountain era. Thefrostyviking might be thinking of the more recent developments, which are actually still pretty old at this point, come to think of it. That might be why lines seem to be crossed. By the time Sion's rework came around, Noxus was already moving solidly into the "merit for merit's sake" era, we just didn't have the chance to publish a faction update then.

The development of these factions isn't a cut and dry thing and they usually involve some degree of transition, which is why both of you are technically right! For instance, for the Noxian crest, there was an in-between version of it that clearly showed the transition visually. It was still clearly very evil (a fancy version of the JoJ era crest) but it was starting to trend toward the dark+magical style more and had almost purely gothic influences. Later, it developed a blend of gothic+brutalism. Sion's rework happened at the tail end of this transition, which is why his design is consistent with the current Noxian style.

As for DragonIgnis' original comment that the core of Noxus is the same, yes it is, from Sion's time! Probably not entirely the Noxus from the JoJ time period, though. And since then, we've also worked out more specifics of the nation, so there are new details from when Sion was released.

Tldr; everyone's technically right, it's just when you were referencing it. Thank goodness we have Universe now.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

Sounds to me we need a Noxus update to clarify everything.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

RiotWhren5 votes

Sounds like we need all that and OH YEA I GET TO USE THE NOXUS SUMMONER ICON

midnight oil241 votes

I'm glad things are going to be caught up soon. There's a lot of good stuff to go around with Noxus. Personally, I like Swain's new Noxus from what I've seen so far. I wouldn't last a day there, but I can see that he's not some two dimensional villain, and someone who provides good reasons to follow him. I'm going to miss a few things (RIP JoJ articles where that one jerk just spewed vitriol towards Noxus, calling them heartless monsters that don't know love and stuff like that. I always hated the guy but loved the articles), but I'm glad to see that Noxus is actually moving into a grey area where there are pros and cons to them, just like Demacia. I feel like Noxus and Demacia will actually be tied together without feeling like forced parallels of each other.

Basically, I think that the lore is definitely a step up from what it used to be, and the moral debate between the ideologies of Noxus and Demacia seem more interesting now that Demacia also has flaws beyond being jerks to the nation that everyone hates. Makes it less of a good vs. bad, more of a lesser of two evils scenario.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Really? O_O

I read the following back of Riven´s lore :

"In Noxus, any citizen may rise to power regardless of race, gender, or social standing - strength is all that matters. It was with committed faith in this ideal that Riven strove to greatness. She showed early potential as a soldier, forcing herself to master the weight of a long sword when she was barely its height. She was ruthless and efficient as a warrior, but her true strength lay in her conviction. She entered battles without any trace of doubt in her mind: no ethical pause, no fear of death."

I can't say i know if Riven´s ideal matched reality terribly well, but that ideal should have been the official message though, at least that is the impression one gains reading her first lore.

That's why i wrote the way i did, since Riven is a pretty long time champ (been around longer than i have) and her oldest lore draft should have matched the first or at least earlier noxus ones.

So my view of Noxus was always this nation that promoted that ideal to their citizens but in truth all the topmost guys were the kind of people who would promote Machiavelli as a cultural idol.

So lots of scheming and ruthless efficiency, and not the type that monthy python's spanish inquisition dealt in but rather towards a blend of Gengis khan and Ceasar, brutal, efficient, highly developed military(for the times) and rather cold towards any not considered their own.

RiotWhren3 votes

Excerpt from the old Noxus info from ancient wikis:

"The citizenry of Noxus generally stands behind the principle that "only the strong survive", regarding the qualities of benevolence and compassion as signs of weakness. Strength begets strength, at least as far as the humans of Noxus are concerned. [...]

Where other human settlements tend to welcome non-humans into their midst, Noxians are decidedly xenophobic. Non-humans are, at best, made to feel unwelcome within the borders of this city-state. There are exceptions to this, but only after the non-humans in question have proven themselves to be either useful or feared (or both). Human visitors and immigrants to Noxus are made to feel only slightly better, again proving themselves only by either demonstrating competence or inspiring terror in their enemies."

And here's an old JoJ article showing that Yordles were not welcome :(

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/The_Journal_of_Justice:_Volume_1,_Issue_02

So, in the past, it was a meritocracy.... with some fine print.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Oh alright, thank you for the info.

,,,,,,,

But wait a sec, in that text it states that noxians xenophobia rarely go beyond insulting,

And katarina claims that the entire thing is false and that yordles are in fact highly skilled at ranged weaponry, something about pointing it at people.

.....Doesn't this kinda imply that the average Noxian look down on Yordles becuase they think Yordles are small and weak?

Evidently the more well informed ones like Kata don't seem to share the sentiment? O_O

So basically there were a bunch of ignorant foul mouthed guys and then there were the hard working types that were further divided into two, the honest, direct but still brutal type (Riven/Darius) who held to the ideal of a strength/merit based system and the cold and scheming sort (Swain/leblanc) who believed that a crime is not a crime as long as you are not caught or doing it for the greater good backed by an army.

Well that is simplifying things a bit but close enough, as a description of the summary of the old lore's noxian social system.

....In short, they were a meritocracy! Just a tad bit poorly educated overall but still a meritocracy.

With Machiavellian ontop, which makes for a pretty damn frightening opponent in terms of nations.

RiotWhren2 votes

....In short, they were a meritocracy! Just a tad bit poorly educated overall but still a meritocracy.

With Machiavellian ontop, which makes for a pretty damn frightening opponent in terms of nations.

Yep, haha! Again, that's why I think it's kinda confusing as old-lore Noxus did have both those elements in it. From my own personal point of view (as a fan and not a rioter), dropping the xenophobic aspect made way for gains in other aspects of Noxus -- like the expansionism and ruthlessness. In my own personal headcanon, I like to imagine that some really really old noxian families still have traces of elitism.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

You could just swap the xenophobia for a degree of nationalism instead to a similar effect but it allows for clauses like "if they prove themselves then it's all manners of great" etc.

And honestly, from my earlier impressions given how Noxus invaded Ionia, they were always both ruthless and expansionist, what was weird was how they were keeping themselves together with a bunch of noble houses that had followed a leader whom Swain killed, it was kinda strange how he kept control of the state with only his own army behind him.

After all, such a nation would have several armies, or legions if you prefer as a reference to the romans, along with Swain´s lines about building roads x)

And there is no real conflict between elitism and meritocracy, the "elite" being the old nobility in this case would just educate their heirs severely to stand over the masses and view it as their natural right to lead and rule, much the same as Azir does in Shurima.

Competent commoner appears? Get's recruited by one of the noble factions or maybe the faction of a commoner who rose up to prominence on their own.

Which seems to be what Swain did towards Darius and Draven, and he was also "outcast" as he puts it at some point, by whom? Who better than elite noxian nobles looking at him as a useless commoner and cold hearted other commoners looking to just rise up to take his spot.

Ifneth1 votes

Valuing strength above all, knowing that you are doing wrong but being ruthless enough to do it, and using whatever means necessary to gain power is evil.

Just ask my main, Taliyah. She was there when Noxus invaded Ionia. The general who had brought her there on a promise of innocent adventure ordered her to bury sleeping villagers in their homes. Only believe a fellow Noxian? Riven was there, too, on a different battlefield. She watched as Singed’s chemical weapons choked a defending army to death.

No country that has done such deeds cares for anything but its own might. Not for the right, not for its people, not for the world. I pity the fool who believes the demon lord leading it to have foreseen the end of the world and be working heroically to stop it, if only he be given what he wants. Swain lies!

Wert the Wacky2 votes

{quoted}

Valuing strength above all, knowing that you are doing wrong but being ruthless enough to do it, and using whatever means necessary to gain power is evil.

Just ask my main, Taliyah. She was there when Noxus invaded Ionia. The general who had brought her there on a promise of innocent adventure ordered her to bury sleeping villagers in their homes. Only believe a fellow Noxian? Riven was there, too, on a different battlefield. She watched as Singed’s chemical weapons choked a defending army to death.

No country that has done such deeds cares for anything but its own might. Not for the right, not for its people, not for the world. I pity the fool who believes the demon lord leading it to have foreseen the end of the world and be working heroically to stop it, if only he be given what he wants. Swain lies!

While I fundamentally disagree with you, I would like to point at out that we don’t know if Swain was in charge of the invasion of Ionia or not. Certainly he was there, but there’s no indication that he was in charge yet.

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

While I fundamentally disagree with you, I would like to point at out that we don’t know if Swain was in charge of the invasion of Ionia or not. Certainly he was there, but there’s no indication that he was in charge yet.

Where do you fundamentally disagree?

With regard to the Ionian invasion, even if Swain were not responsible, it would have turned out little differently had he been. Ionia would have suffered the same ruthless brutality, perhaps in the form of different atrocities. Besides, he has no qualms about what was done, and we do know that he was among the highest commanders of the Noxian invasion of the Freljord. Not to be flippant, but this is quibbling about whether his crimes are against peace or humanity or both.

And speaking of quibbling, let me not make too fine a point. Swain is a demon-possessed tyrant who murdered his way into absolute power and is trying to take over the world. His claim to have forseen the end of Runeterra and be the only one who can stop it—but only if everyone submits to his rule—is the derangedly narcissistic rationalization of his villainy.

Should some lurking danger suddenly arise to loom large over all Valoran, its nations can face it together. Together, the Solari and Lunari singlehandedly stopped a Void invasion at Mount Targon. Just imagine what a worldwide alliance could achieve.

Wert the Wacky1 votes

{quoted}

Where do you fundamentally disagree?

With regard to the Ionian invasion, even if Swain were not responsible, it would have turned out little differently had he been. Ionia would have suffered the same ruthless brutality, perhaps in the form of different atrocities. Besides, he has no qualms about what was done, and we do know that he was among the highest commanders of the Noxian invasion of the Freljord. Not to be flippant, but this is quibbling about whether his crimes are against peace or humanity or both.

And speaking of quibbling, let me not make too fine a point. Swain is a demon-possessed tyrant who murdered his way into absolute power and is trying to take over the world. His claim to have forseen the end of Runeterra and be the only one who can stop it—but only if everyone submits to his rule—is the derangedly narcissistic rationalization of his villainy.

Should some lurking danger suddenly arise to loom large over all Valoran, its nations can face it together. Together, the Solari and Lunari singlehandedly stopped a Void invasion at Mount Targon. Just imagine what a worldwide alliance could achieve.

I disagree that using whatever means necessary to gain power is evil, at least when you have Swain’s end goal. He isn’t some evil dictator that wants power for powers sake, he’s a ruthless man who realizes Valoran must be united to face the void invasion, a possible shadow isles invasion, the frozen watchers, and whatever else may be coming. I find it very unlikely that all of Valoran would unite before it was too late unless one person is controlling everything, mainly because of Demacia being too stubborn to accept magic, and the Frejlord not being united in the first place. I think Valoran is better off having a merciless dictator that will keep the world alive, rather than being destroyed by the void and shadow isles.

Ifneth1 votes

{quoted}

I disagree that using whatever means necessary to gain power is evil, at least when you have Swain’s end goal. He isn’t some evil dictator that wants power for powers sake, he’s a ruthless man who realizes Valoran must be united to face the void invasion, a possible shadow isles invasion, the frozen watchers, and whatever else may be coming. I find it very unlikely that all of Valoran would unite before it was too late unless one person is controlling everything, mainly because of Demacia being too stubborn to accept magic, and the Frejlord not being united in the first place. I think Valoran is better off having a merciless dictator that will keep the world alive, rather than being destroyed by the void and shadow isles.

In general, we should be skeptical of arguments presented to us, demanding proof at every turn rather than seeking reasons to believe them.

Swain claims that the world is in danger of an apocalyptic invasion. Besides some whispers and old scrolls, we have no reason to believe that claim, and he certainly has presented no evidence. Next, he believes that the world will fail to defend itself. Time and again, it has proven otherwise, defeating all manner of terrible foes. Last, he argues that only by making him ruler of the world could its forces be marshaled to defeat the coming threat. That is a self-serving argument from a scheming emperor, and there are plenty of reasonable alternatives.

Swain could have devoted himself to preparing the world for the invasion he claims to foresee. He could be organizing an alliance, holding meetings, writing plans, recruiting volunteers, and procuring materièl. He has instead lead a massively destructive invasion of the entire planet. Accordingly, we should read between the lines and of his argument and see it for the pretext it is.

Even if our backs are put to the wall, our lives in the balance in a struggle against some monstrous foe, we should not abandon what made them worth living. Peace. Justice. Freedom. Let Swain say what he wants about what must be done: these words are worth risking everything for.

Wert the Wacky3 votes

While you have a fair point, I think Valoran would be more free and peaceful under the unified rule of Noxus anyway. While ruthless in war, they're pretty chill after their enemies have surrendered, and Noxians are much more free than Demacians. For all their screaming about justice, the people of Demacia that aren't grand heroes seem to have no freedoms and live in fear of magic. No one in any of the other regions is fit to rule all of Valoran. I do admit that he certainly could have devoted himself to preparing for the invasions in peaceful ways, but it's doubtful they would have worked considering the majority of areas in Runeterra have no ruler. Swain's way is the only way left.

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