@Lore Team: What are your thoughts on a "totally evil bastard" character?

darkdill·Oct 3, 2014·4 votes·4,886 views

What do I mean by that? Think Kefka from FF6. Not a single redeeming quality to him, or any way you can feel sorry for his circumstances. Guy's just one evil sonnovab!tch.

Or Yuki Terumi from Blazblue. Guy makes being evil look good. And that laugh of his? Epic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j65pU6h1xoY

I know you guys hate one-dimensional characters, but that doesn't mean you can't have them. A completely evil villain-type would definitely show some contrast to the others in the roster, all whom have SOMETHING to make them more likable. But we honestly need someone who EVERYONE would want to beat the sh!t out of (besides Teemo).

30 Comments

RiotCarnival KnightsOct 3, 20148 votes

Hm. While I certainly don't speak for everyone, I feel like evil for the sake evil is a bit... one dimensional? I agree that its fun, but even complete sociopaths have a vision of their own actions where they're the hero of the story. I think, for the sake of argument, what we might consider true evil isn't really evil at all. It might just seem evil based on our own moral value judgments.

Even Kefka was implied to be a normal man before we was experimented on. At the age of 19, no less!

darkdillOct 3, 20143 votes

Yeah, Kefka might have been on the level before being experimented on, but afterwards he was one effed up mofo. I mean, the first thing he did when he put the slave crown on Terra? He had her burn his own men to death for FUN!

And when he poisons Doma's water supply? Well, his own words put it succinctly.

“Hee, hee! Nothing can beat the sweet music of hundreds of voices screaming in unison!”

Imagine if Shaco were that effed up instead of his current lameness. (You have to admit it, his VO could be a helluva lot better. And his story could be more interesting since Ram Steed is retconned out.)

DreamspitterOct 5, 20141 votes

Hm. While I certainly don't speak for everyone, I feel like evil for the sake evil is a bit... one dimensional? I agree that its fun, but even complete sociopaths have a vision of their own actions where they're the hero of the story. I think, for the sake of argument, what we might consider true evil isn't really evil at all. It might just seem evil based on our own moral value judgments.

Even Kefka was implied to be a normal man before we was experimented on. At the age of 19, no less!

Everyone has a way of justifying their own actions.

LordHippomanOct 3, 20145 votes

Chogath Draven Evelynn Hecarim Lissandra Nocturne Shaco Warwick

All count, I think. And of course

Veigar

tau43Oct 3, 20142 votes

To be fair, Warwick is the result of a failed attempt to get an ingredient for an immortality potion. Without the ingredient, it just drove him mad.

PanwarOct 3, 20144 votes

It wasn't an immorality potion. He wanted to become the werewolf thing he is to better hunt down his targets. It's just degenerative unless he gets Soraka's heart.

Rew711Oct 3, 20141 votes

And what of his other experiments? Why can't we have one experiment that was his close friend. He gave the friend lightning powers though the guy has no killer intent. Distraught that his friend (Warwick) became what he is, he decides to look for a cure and goes to LoL. They shun him for being to weak hearted and he ponders on a solution. He drinks the same potion to be more feral. Though it partially worked, due to his heart still being to pure, he is able to now fight better. Though Warwick sees him as a rival now, considering only one of them can attain Soraka's heart. Not knowing or believing in his friend's true intentions.

Coffee Ray GunOct 3, 20141 votes

Liss isn't really all evil, I would say Sejuani is worse than her according to their lores.

LeeDarkOct 3, 20145 votes

We already have Veigar.

Thanotos OmegaOct 3, 20144 votes

Almost none of the void champs have a redeeming quality, LeBlanc is also completely heartless by all measures, DR Mundo has been a monster since long before his potions drove him mad, We already have allot of evil jerk bags, they just happen to have funny quotes,

PanwarOct 3, 20143 votes

There are lots of purely evil champs.

Vlad is basically a serial killer. Dr. Mundo is a sadist and probable serial killer Elise feeds human sacrifices to a demi-god in exchange for power. Jinx is harder to pin down, but all clues point to wantonly destructive, with no concern for other living beings. Malzahar is a traitor to Runeterra helping to usher in the Void. Renekton wishes destruction on everything and everyone(but extra destruction for Nasus). Shaco apparently is just a killer without remorse and maybe little purpose. Singed is a war profiteer, killer, sentient experimentor. Thresh just likes to torture living beings and hold their souls in captivity.

This is just a quick list without even going into the real inhuman creatures who's minds and motives we can't truly understand.

Valaran NaraOct 3, 20141 votes

Elise feeds human sacrifices to a demi-god in exchange for power.

It's the Shadow Isles bro. Check the event. People are either drawn to their doom or become corrupted in some form. She was corrupted by its influence.

Malzahar is a traitor to Runeterra helping to usher in the Void.

I don't know enough about Mal, and I have yet to read his lore. I'll make the assumption (and I could be wrong, you may correct me) that when Kass went in, he came out a changed man wanting to stop the void. When MAL went in, he became fully corrupted and wish to spread it.

^ Just saying. Corruption happens. You don't have to be evil from beginning to end.

Renekton wishes destruction on everything and everyone(but extra destruction for Nasus).

Yes he wishes destruciton. Because he sacrificed himself by having his brother lock him in with a madman for over a millennium. He went crazy. Renekton WAS a hero. He just lost his sense of sanity. Tragic bro. Tragic.

CookiehimeOct 3, 20141 votes

Malzahar is a traitor to Runeterra helping to usher in the Void.

I don't know enough about Mal, and I have yet to read his lore. I'll make the assumption (and I could be wrong, you may correct me) that when Kass went in, he came out a changed man wanting to stop the void. When MAL went in, he became fully corrupted and wish to spread it.

He never went into the Void. If he did, he'd have been turned into a monster like Kassadin and probably would not have been able to escape the Void because he has a weak will (unlike Kassadin). He was driven insane because of his hyper-sensitive subconscious which allowed him to hear the voices that came from beyond the realms of Runeterra (since he was born a seer). It's not described in detail in his bio but I remember reading a short story written by one of the writers 2-3 years ago (I forgot who it was...) which described how the voices of the Void tugged at his subconscious, tortured him and eventually drove him insane. It was posted only on the forums. I don't remember its title unfortunately.

I also got one detail wrong. Just re-read his bio and remembered that he went mad before going to Icathia. So, he probably went to the League to corrupt some Summoners before summoning Kog'Maw and Cho'Gath.

He went full crazy because those voices annoyed the hell out of him, which is why I think he's not evil for the sake of being evil. He's a puppet to the Void.

EDIT: I think that the writer was called Skribbles. Don't know if he's still at Riot though. And I remember making a really silly comment about linking Malzahar's nightmare to Nocturne .

facepalm

(Just pretend you never saw that comment if you find the thread...)

PanwarOct 4, 20141 votes

All the evil beings are corrupted in some way, even if not explicitly stated. Dr. Mundo and Vlad probably weren't born evil babies. I don't think that the means of their corruption somehow mitigates their current evil.

Thanotos OmegaOct 5, 20141 votes

All the evil beings are corrupted in some way, even if not explicitly stated. Dr. Mundo and Vlad probably weren't born evil babies. I don't think that the means of their corruption somehow mitigates their current evil.

Actually they both just started doing evil things with no prompting, so yeah they were evil babies, they just lacked the ability to act on it,

Chromatic EagleOct 3, 20142 votes

Unless you felt sorry for it there is Nocturne.

ShadowKnight1224Oct 3, 20142 votes

I find this exact trope, "an evil villain that is smart and charismatic, but still thoroughly sadistic and evil" to be horrendously boring. It's basically wish-fulfillment of Mary Sue degrees.

Evil, by itself, is not a flaw, which means that villains need to have flaws just as much as heroes do. And flaws are defined as traits that actively impede a character.

It's fine to have charismatic villains, or clever villains, or both at the same time, but they must have some type of flaw that actively sabotages them in the eyes of the audience. If the flaws that you picked are things that the narrative portrays as "endearing" rather than actively harmful, it's not an actual flaw (this is why it's so common to give main characters the 'clumsy' trait and pass it off as a flaw, only in 99% of the stories, that trait is there to make them look endearing. Clumsiness as a true flaw makes the reader go "OH MY F%$#ING GOD MAIN CHARACTER CAN YOU F%$#ING STOP BEING SO F%$#ING CLUMSY FOR ONE F%$#ING MINUTE!" when the main character drops something incredibly important from his butterfingers at a crucial time).

Smart and charismatic "bastard" villains are made deliberately flawless as a way for the audience to project themselves into them and have a wish-fulfilment fantasy of being a triumphant, unfettered ubermensch. I would not like to see them in any story, much less in the videogame I like to play so much.

EDIT: There's also a bit of sexism into this character trope. In general, when this type of villain is a man, he tends to be fawned over and liked, with people going out of their way to excuse his actions and paint him in a sympathetic light. This does not tend to happen in the (extremely rare) cases where the trope goes to a woman instead.

darkdillOct 3, 20141 votes

When did I say it had to be a "perfect villain"? I simply meant an "unsympathetic villain", one who you would never have pity for on his/her circumstances.

This villain could have quirks, but that doesn't mean you don't still hate him.

ShadowKnight1224Oct 3, 20142 votes

It comes with the trope. The "smart and charismatic bastard" is almost always a flawless villain designed for wish-fulfilment. That may not have been your intention, but it is what the rest of the world has decided it should be.

Note also how you say "quirks", instead of "flaws". That is exactly the type of erroneous thinking that leads into "flawless, perfect villain."

NeoJusteBelmontOct 5, 20141 votes

I find this exact trope, "an evil villain that is smart and charismatic, but still thoroughly sadistic and evil" to be horrendously boring. It's basically wish-fulfillment of Mary Sue degrees.

Evil, by itself, is not a flaw, which means that villains need to have flaws just as much as heroes do. And flaws are defined as traits that actively impede a character.

It's fine to have charismatic villains, or clever villains, or both at the same time, but they must have some type of flaw that actively sabotages them in the eyes of the audience. If the flaws that you picked are things that the narrative portrays as "endearing" rather than actively harmful, it's not an actual flaw (this is why it's so common to give main characters the 'clumsy' trait and pass it off as a flaw, only in 99% of the stories, that trait is there to make them look endearing. Clumsiness as a true flaw makes the reader go "OH MY F%$#ING GOD MAIN CHARACTER CAN YOU F%$#ING STOP BEING SO F%$#ING CLUMSY FOR ONE F%$#ING MINUTE!" when the main character drops something incredibly important from his butterfingers at a crucial time).

Smart and charismatic "bastard" villains are made deliberately flawless as a way for the audience to project themselves into them and have a wish-fulfilment fantasy of being a triumphant, unfettered ubermensch. I would not like to see them in any story, much less in the videogame I like to play so much.

EDIT: There's also a bit of sexism into this character trope. In general, when this type of villain is a man, he tends to be fawned over and liked, with people going out of their way to excuse his actions and paint him in a sympathetic light. This does not tend to happen in the (extremely rare) cases where the trope goes to a woman instead.

In a way that pretty much describes Hazama/Yuki Terumi in a nutshell. He's pretty much being a Villain Sue of epic proportions, and it was HIS victims that was blamed for being gullible and a moron (hint: boobs), it's like saying Renekton was a moron to be driven insane by Xerath because he's didn't just blast Xerath to smithereens or resist his mind rape.

Sometimes, fans expectations can be so high on a hero it's getting irritating...

That said Riot, have you actually MADE someone like Hazama/Terumi?

SnowFallOct 3, 20142 votes

we need manly version of Jinx

Chromatic EagleOct 3, 20142 votes

we need manly version of

Ziggs and Veigar?

TerraRisingOct 3, 20142 votes

The best current champ to be that evil bastard, imodo, would be Singed . I had my own retcon idea that would have fixed Singed's long broken story.

Singed could have been an isolated chemistry prodigy who created incredible weapons but, because he was in isolation save for a mentor and Warwick (his ingredient gatherer), did not have the shackles of mercy most other scientists had. After years/decades of isolation, where Noxus/Zaun used the most powerful weapons ever devised, Singed gets a taste of the outside world from Warwick's transformation and realizes that he's been missing something from his scientific method, observing results.

Casually, Singed kills his mentor with the most powerful weapon he has, blows up his lab and survives, thanks to his mostly artificial body. He then goes off to find out how effective his weapons are. Singed is only interested in logging the results of his experiments, not giving one damn about the human cost.

NeoJusteBelmontOct 5, 20142 votes

Well, now in the mention of Terumi and BlazBlue, I may as well ask this to Riot...

Has BlazBlue itself been used as an inspiration for something in the League of Legends? Well, you said that Riven draws inspiration from fighting games and their combos, but I thought it is more from either general fighting games or Super Smash Bros. The only link to BlazBlue is just something as her voice (Cristina Vee, AKA Noel. Only mentioned this because despite Patrick Seitz (Ragna) is involved voicing Lucian Renekton KogMaw , they are not having fighting game influences), so I don't think you had BB in mind when it comes to designing Riven

Just for fun, if you are going to take a BlazBlue character as an inspiration for a new champion, who would you pick, Riot? Just one.

Chromatic EagleOct 3, 20141 votes

I guess Trundle now? Maybe Swain. Singed, Thresh, etc.

darkdillOct 3, 20145 votes

Well, Trundle doesn't get a euphoric high at watching people writhing in agony, begging for their lives.

So in that regard, Thresh kinda qualifies more.

tau43Oct 3, 20145 votes

Clang, clang, go the chains...

GreyXpelliarmusOct 3, 20141 votes

Someone who just wants chaos and hates order and progress. But with a past where he actually wanted order and progress, and now knows nothing but to hurt, destroy, blow things up. And he has to be scary, not another veigar. A warrior like nocturne-leesin fusion or a mastermind like swain that'd be great

CookiehimeOct 5, 20141 votes

I think it's OK to have some one-dimensional characters. Old WW used to be just that. He was pure chaotic evil and reveled at the sight of destruction and chaos that he caused. Even after losing his intelligence when Soraka cursed him and made it so he could no longer use it to create weapons of mass destruction, he still had not changed and remained the evil psychopath he had always been. That's kinda what I found interesting about old ww which made him very different and unique from all the neutral, semi-sympathetic, or "I'm in it for the money and self-interest" villains there are in LoL. I think they completely changed him with the rewrite. It's not like him to use tricks. He used to be intelligent, but he used his brains to create chemical weapons which he could use to satisfy his lust for blood. Now a beast, he can no longer create those weapons and mass murder people, but his bloodlust still remained.

That was the core of his character. No manner of change or transformation could deter his thirst for blood.

Imo, trying to change WW so he would repent for his crimes and no longer lust for blood would have been a really huge challenge for Soraka.