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Barbarian Warlords only lead because they are the strongest.

Ralanr·4/20/2017, 3:55:11 PM·20 votes·1,213 views

No. By that logic you couldn't have a leader (Just look at Axe in Dota 2. He's the "leader" of an army because he killed his way up the ranks to show he was the strongest. He proved he was, but there was no one left to lead because he killed everyone).

Even if strength is a factor (and for the sake of argument, we will say it is a factor for barbarian leaders) in leadership, you need more than just strength to be a leader.

Most important thing you need is charisma. You need to get people on your side, to fight for you and possibly die for you. Sometimes it's not you that needs the charisma, but your goal.

Let's take a look at King Obould Many-Arrows from the legend of Drizzt. He's an orc barbarian warlord who is introduced by kicking the ever loving crap out of Wulfgar (you could argue the Worf effect). But he's not your average orc warlord who is content in keeping his position. No, he has a dream of creating his own kingdom for orcs.

And he did it. He made that damn kingdom, not just because he was strong. Thousands of orcs are strong, strength is a big thing in their culture. Obould however was intelligent, even by human standards (honestly a lot of characters in Drizzt seem to be special for some reason) and was able to create peace treaties with "goodie races", even traded with them.

Now his strength was important, but if that was all he had then he'd just be another warlord among orcs.

Why am I talking about this? Well this relates a little to Sejuani. I've heard people argue that she is supposed to lead by charging headfirst, by being the strongest.

That's not why Sejuani leads. She's leading because she has a vision, the determination to see it happen, and the charisma to get people to follow her. Strength is important, but she isn't the strongest person in the Winter's Claw. I'd argue that's Olaf because he is fated to not die in battle, and he only follows her to find a death in battle.

Idk. I just never saw Sejuani as "I lead because I am the best!" I mean it is a factor since she doesn't take weaklings, but I don't think people only follow her because she's strong. They follow her because they believe in her vision and will fight to make it happen. Hell her E stacking on melee hits from allies shows this! They will fight by her side, empowering her to lock down an enemy and bring them down faster for the Winters Claw.

Sorry for the ramble. This just bothered me.

20 Comments

Wrathof3004/20/2017, 4:46:45 PM7 votes

She doesn't have to be the strongest, because she is already the leader of Winter's Claw. More than likely she got her position because of strength and maintained it because of the reasons you said above. Most other important/powerful characters join after the fact.

Olaf - literally was unmatched by anyone else from winter's claw until he fought Sej, but instead of killing each other she offered him an even more glorious death.

Volibear - his tribe became soft and needed to prepare them for war, so he sought out one of the most powerful tribes and allied with them, to train the Ursine

Udyr - joined her because of her cause to fight against the frost witch.

In all of these cases her charisma and leadership skills are important but in some cases so was her strength. So like you said she may not be the strongest, but she certainly is among the best in the group.

ahferroin74/21/2017, 2:06:38 AM2 votes

I would argue that there are some who follow her because they're scared out of their wits of what might happen to them if they don't. Charisma can have a positive as well as a negative side to it, and while we romanticize leadership in such contexts, a lot of 'barbarian' warlords rule by intimidation (and by extension, some form of strength, be it physical or mental).

MetalGearTeemu4/21/2017, 7:34:48 AM2 votes

I know I'd shit myself getting initiated on by axe far more readily then by Sej.

Magic Immunity piercing taunt, tree damage helixes and Cull?

Please Mogul Khan have mercy, send the Angry Feminist riding another Feminist instead.

KONO RUBICK DA4/20/2017, 7:52:13 PM1 votes

if i remember correctly Axe was a "one-man army" so if he was a leader, it was just because of strength IMO i don't think he has charimsa

Nylisa4/20/2017, 9:27:40 PM1 votes

i agree with you , and i personally would rather follow her! her determination , her stubbornness , her conviction in her goal is very attractive to me! i would pick her as my leader even if ashe is offering peace and all that nonsense!

The Anagram King4/21/2017, 7:37:56 AM1 votes

Feudal Japan was based pretty heavily on killing your way to the top. It's doable.

Warlord Dienekes4/20/2017, 6:54:19 PM1 votes

I honestly, can't think of a barbarian culture that was ruled by the guy just because he was strongest. Now I can't speak for most fictional worlds, honestly I don't know of many that really revolve around "barbarian" cultures, except for Conan, and Joe Abercrombie's work. By the way, as far as making a barbarian society that actually would function, Abercrombie seems to get it.

But historically, just stop and think about it for a second. If a culture was lead by whoever could beat everyone else up, that would be the single worst organized culture in the world. (Only thing I can think of worse would be the hilariously stupid Rite of Kor stuff, which getting rid of that remains the only good thing to come out of the Targon rewrite) Now there are some legends where the fate of a culture was decided by a duel. But those only happened when both sides of the duel were already leaders in their own right, and a duel was declared to be a more honorable and less costly method of determining a winner than having all their soldiers/warriors also fight. Which actually happened a lot more often.

The real reason why a leader is determined is based off of inheritance, usually the former king would have a son (or granddaughter in the case of the Ostrogothic Kingdom) who would get the kingdom when he died and keep it if he wasn't an idiot. Usually because these leaders can trace their lineage from some probably mythical figure that gives them legitimacy.

Now, there are some other kind of important details in here as well. If a leader was considered weak they can be replaced. What exactly determines weakness is arguable. It probably isn't the ability to beat people up, yourself, but it might be cowardice. A lot (but not all, admittedly) of barbarians kings we know of did lead the charge into battle. Usually with the strongest, best equipped soldiers at their side. This I think is probably where the idea that leading means actually taking the lead comes from, as it was hugely popular for a lot of military leaders, both civilized and barbaric: Alexander the Great, Vercingetorix, Alaric, Theoderic the Great, were all front-line warriors, even Julius Caesar stepped up to the front lines on occasion.

So, I wouldn't say actually being the leader doesn't mean you shouldn't be the one that charges headfirst into battle, the leaders did fairly frequently. It just wasn't a universal requirement.

As to Sejuani herself. I am not going to even pretend I know her story, motivations, or play style. I know she's supposed to be a leader, that's about it. Now, the old way they went about making her a leader was by making her the actual first one into a conflict. Which, is acceptable. As I said, that type of leadership for barbarian kings was pretty common.

So, I would ask, first and foremost: Does this rework make her act like a barbarian leader? If so how? AND does this still match with her current playstyle?

midnight oil244/20/2017, 7:36:50 PM1 votes

Exactly. People don't just get to lead because of strength, they have to have the people skills to back it up. Napoleon: terrible guy but super charismatic, apparently had an insane memory. Unfortunately Hitler: apparently very charming. I'm assuming this is between his rants about what he was going to do, which he presumably did in private so as not to blow his cover.

Point is, leaders don't just get to succeed because of strength. Strength is nothing if you don't have the charisma and and social skills to get these people loyal to you. If you lead based on strength, they're just afraid of you and will turn to anyone who's stronger than you.

You have written an excellent piece, sir!