Do you think that the Targon champions need their lore rewritten?

Johnny El Rojo·Nov 10, 2017·16 votes·2,198 views

Mount Targon - Regions - Universe of League of Legends

I see that even being some that like and some that dislike the rest of the new lore and prefer the old, the new Targon lore seems to be considered problematic by a great majority of people, myself included. Even when my problem is more like with a specific character like , I see a lot of people that also have a problem with the rest, like and . I already made my question in the title. But the thing is, I don't think is needed that big of a change to restablish them to something we like. , for example. Here is something I wrote in another discussion:

"Not every character needs to pass through the grim dark filter. Leona worked just fine. And you can still have a lot to drama to her with her old lore. Maybe she is losing hope in her own people? Especially after seeing her old friend becoming a monster. Maybe she only chased to the top of the mountain out off duty, and instead of rage, with sadness in her heart from what had happened, and feeling guilty for not being able to stop it. There are a lot of directions you can go with the old her, Riot."

So, also, I would like to ask, what you think could be changed in the context of the new lore from the characters to make them more like the old selfs we liked so much? Maybe isn't dead, and the Aspect of War is just encouraging his worst behaviors. Maybe killed the elders willingly, but now she is feeling guilty, and seeing violence won't solve her problems. I don't know. What do you think it could be made to solve these problems?

84 Comments

GreenLoreNov 10, 201716 votes

Overall I think that they shouldn't do a rewrite,simply because that would prove that even the new lore could get rewritten any time,which would likely hurt the trust that the lore team has managed to build up again in the past years.

The big problem that I see with the Targon lore is that the aspects are currently so damm mysterious and not in an interesting way. We don't know their reasons for doing anything,we don't know why they bothered enslaving Aurelion,when some of their members are appearantly on his level,we don't know why they hijack the bodies of others,we don't know whats their internal conflict is about,we don't know how exactly they coexist with their hosts(could the aspect of the sun control Leona if he wanted to?),etc.

Warlord DienekesNov 14, 20172 votes

This kind of creates a catch-22 doesn’t it? The Targon lore isn’t interesting because space parasites aren’t fleshed out. But as soon as the space parasites get fleshed out they take over the lore with the humans merely acting for or opposing their will and their civil war. This for all intents and purposes makes the parasites the main characters and driving force of the story.

But the humans were supposed to be the focus. And they’re only the focus so long as the space parasites are stuck in the background. Which brings us back to the Targon lore isn’t interesting because the space parasites are overly vague and not in an interesting way.

GreenLoreNov 14, 20171 votes

In general I feel like the human factions of Targon don't matter that much anymore. I mean we don't have a single character from targon who is not related to the aspects in some way and the Solari only really matter for Leona and Diana,not the other 4 Targon champs(and even they don't feel that present anymore after their leaders were killed)

Warlord DienekesNov 14, 20172 votes

That's pretty much what I see as the problem. Original Pantheon, Leona, and Diana were the three originals for the lore. The humans should be the focus. But so far all three (including Atreus as a human here) have had their personal desires and motivations stripped or replaced by the space parasites to varying degrees. They've all become kind of tangential to the story of their own lore. After all what does it matter if Leona and Diana hate each other, when there's a space empire and a star dragon trying to kill a planet.

Only, the dynamics between Leona and Diana were fairly interesting. The space empire isn't, as you yourself admit. And any focus put on them will push Diana and Leona's (and even Taric's) problems and personalities further out of the focus to be replaced with the grand plot of the space empire's shenanigans.

GreenLoreNov 14, 20171 votes

Overall the focus isn't that much on the solari and lunari anymore,but that is fine in my opinion as they were only later added to the mountain. Personally I would have wished for them to focus more on the rakkor,but sadly that wasn't the case.

In general I feel like Targon is overflowing with too many subfactions that barely get any characterization. I mean we have the rakkor,the solari(granted the solari are a part of the rakkor,but we barely see them interact with each other),the targonians,the void creatures,the pilgrims who settled down at the base of the mountain and Diana as the sole lunari(for now...)

After all what does it matter if Leona and Diana hate each other, when there's a space empire and a star dragon trying to kill a planet.

To be fair you could say that about almost any lore piece that isn't tied to the void,the shadow isles or the targon empire.

Warlord DienekesNov 14, 20172 votes

To be fair you could say that about almost any lore piece that isn't tied to the void,the shadow isles or the targon empire.

And I have, when discussing why I think the inclusion of the godly element is actually bad for the story of the game.

However, it's at the most blatant in Targon and Shurima where the godlike and the human are so closely brought together. Freljord will probably follow, where the actually interesting story (Ashe attempting to unite the clans) will probably take a backseat when the gods take over the movement of the mountain.

What Miss Fortune does in Bilgewater is objectively unimportant when compared to Sol. However, Sol and Miss Fortune need never interact. They may as well be in two separate stories, hell, they're basically in two separate settings. So we can become invested in the trials of Miss Fortune and worry about Gangplank's inevitable return without the looming threat of Sol and the space parasites in the back of our mind.

And speaking for myself here, of the numerous questions left open by the Targon update. The only one I really care about from a storytelling perspective is: What happened to the Solari now that all their leadership has been murdered in 1 second? That's HUGE, that'd be like if the White House and all of the leaders of government were blown up, along with the Pope and all the Cardinals if everyone in the US was Catholic. I don't think you can overstate how important that event was, for the people living on the mountain. And best of all it is directly tied to the actions and inactions of two of our "main" characters.

But that is completely negated by the vast mysteries of the space parasites. Because our "main" characters aren't actually important when compared to the scope they've been forced to work within.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 201710 votes

The Targon lore reads like Riot is trying to mix a space opera with mythology and failing at both. I want the Targon lore to be rewritten, but I don't see how that can be done in a satisfying way as long as the space parasites exist. And they're pretty central to Sol's lore, and since Sol is the star forger and the sun has been an intricate part of the lore since the second ever targonian champion, so he will have to be tied to it.

I think we're stuck with what we got, warts and all. Which is mostly just warts.

RalanrNov 10, 20176 votes

IMO Targon can work with the space thing, as they are basically an empire on collapse that’s lost most of their history. Either from infighting, spreading too thin, or some other factor, the community in Mt. Targon is all that remains.

And I wouldn’t call the aspects space parasites, more like symbiots. Some take it to extremes (Atreus and Pantheon) but others act more like a a person given power to use how they deem fit (Taric, Leona, Diana).

I do miss the more mundane aspects of them, but honestly I don’t think Targon would actually last that long in Runeterra as time goes on if they didn’t have a certain edge over everyone. Noxus has a larger military force and more advanced weapons. Demacia...only has anti magic to stop them from actually progressing, Piltover and Zaun are having breakthroughs every day, etc.

When Pantheon does get a rework though, I fully expect a more master of war than a full on divine of war. I don’t think we need a War God in league. I’d rather Pantheon be a soldier, but Garen and Darius are taking up those roles.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 20176 votes

It already "works" with the space thing. It just isn't good. Having all the important stuff, the movers and shakers of the story off in some intergalactic empire, while some peons struggle to carry on their will is not going to be fulfilling.

Now originally, Targon did have an edge over the others. They had the best soldiers on the planet, they lived in an inhospitable mountain that an army would have to be insane to try and invade. And they had chosen defenders by actual gods. Making the gods as gods gives a reason for why they're looking after their people and defending them in the same way that Illaoi's motivations have reason behind them. As soon as you reveal them to be space parasites with an entire galaxy of conquest under their heel their actions can get analyzed and picked apart to show how ludicrous their decisions and nonsensical their motivations would have to be in order for the story to unfold as it has.

And while I completely agree that a reworked Panth should just be an awesome soldier, literally every comment by a Rioter about it I've seen has said that their goal is to have him feel like the God of War. So, I do not have your optimism on my mains increasingly looming rework.

RalanrNov 10, 20172 votes

There’s one problem with the great warrior market: which country is buying them?

Noxus I don’t think wants to accept people they haven’t conquered into their payroll. Demacia is isolationist. Piltover is probably too far and doesn’t actually fight wars.

In the past I can see it, but with an advancing Runeterra I don’t see who would hire Targonians.

I’m aware of what Riot wants. And frankly I don’t agree. The only flashy thing about Pantheon that is in the realm of the paranormal is his jumping power. Give him magic weapons, I don’t care. But don’t give him powers that do not befit a warrior.

Don’t make a war god that just wins by simply being stronger. Make a war god that wins by being damn good at fighting and strategy.

And hopefully they will since the aspect takes full control over a vessel rather than bestows them power. As annoying as the aspect is, all it really does is get Atreus to places faster and fight better (Atreus was skilled but his best trait was his endurance not his fighting ability). So maybe a rework will put focus on that.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 20175 votes

Honestly, if the Rakkor were the greatest soldiers in the world, and I was trying to use logic to actually dictate a setting rather than whatever Riot has written. I'd have Mt Targon's influence extend slightly out. There is some internal strife, but the Targonian people make up the populace of Mt Targon and the surrounding lands, some of them being in fairly fertile areas. Whatever conqueror of the week would likely want them. The Solari Elders would use their religious dominance to get others to submit to their rough hegemony. And if Noxus or any other came, out goes the Rakkor. This also gets the added benefit of seeing other tribes and city-states in the area. We know that there are others, but so far all we've been told are the Rakkor and the Solari.

Also, Noxus not using mercenaries? They had no problem picking up people from Zaun if memory serves. An empire that doesn't use mercenaries is an empire that isn't going to get far. They're the most efficient way to bolster their troops. Hell, going by history here. The Persians were the big expansive empire, and they constantly used Greek mercenaries. Hell, they had an exiled Spartan king along with at least one battalion of Greek mercenaries when they tried to conquer Greece.

Whether we agree or disagree with Riot's direction doesn't matter. Riot will do what they will do, and we will either have to take it or leave. After reading what Riot has done in Targon I have 0 faith that they understand the Pantheon I want to play. I'm glad you have more, I hope you are not disappointed. But I cannot look at what they've done and said they will do thus far and not think they're missing the entire reason why I main who I main.

RalanrNov 10, 20174 votes

So what is the entire reason you main Pantheon?

I think we need to make a thread about this. Better now rather than when he’s officially announced. I’ve been thinking about making one myself but have been busy.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 20175 votes

Honestly, the biggest one is Sparta. They're one of my favorite historical cultures, and they're far more unique and awesome than the ninjas and samurai and vikings and other of the more generic historical warriors that usually get shoved into these sort of games and settings.

But more than that, I liked that he was a soldier, first and foremost. Everyone in League is designed like a warrior. Darius is vaguely dressed like a huskarl to lead an army. Garen is using a weapon that could never be used in a formation, especially the way he uses it. Jarvan is... whatever Jarvan is. Nonsense I suppose. They're just this group of the elite specialist warriors. I want to play the infantryman. The career soldier. With a spear and shield and none of that magic bullshit. Throw spears, block with my shield, maybe bash in a few faces with it as well.

The more star effects and more glorious and splendid he looks the worse he will be for me. He should be the guy in the dirt. If this was WWI he'd be stuck in a trench somewhere. If they want to make him look unique, don't make his armor golden and glowy. His cape should not have twinkling stars inside of it. Make his equipment old and chipped and scratched. Make his cloak torn, bloodstained, and muddy. Make him look like he fights for a living, that he has survived more battles than you could name. That's his home, that's what Pantheon is.

RalanrNov 10, 20172 votes

IMO if they really go for the war god thematic they should keep him as a mundane look because that makes him relatable to other soldiers that fight.

What’s better than a patron you can imagine fighting side by side like a brother in arms? Someone to know the strife of a soldier. Now I know ancient commanders were also on the frontlines, but as communication advanced there was less need to go to the front. Which imo widened the gap between commander and soldier, hence why a war god that is more related to the soldiers would gain a larger following.

Not that aspected are actually gods, but Pantheon imo needs to look like a normal Rakkorian warrior who lets his deeds talk, rather than his bling.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 20173 votes

Sure. But here is how he's described in his current lore:

This was no star, but a warrior mantled in starlight and bearing a gleaming, golden shield and spear of legend. He had landed in a warrior's crouch, one knee lowered to the ground, and as he looked up at the enemy defiling the lands of Mount Targon, the Rakkorans saw it was Atreus... and yet not Atreus. The Aspect of the Warrior had infused him, and he was now both mortal and immortal, the incarnation of war made flesh. He was now an avatar of battle. He had become the Pantheon. ... The outsiders' blood ran from Pantheon's armor and weapon, leaving them pristine and gleaming with starlight.

And in the color text

He was bedecked in armor of archaic design, though his arms and legs were bare and tautly muscled. His cloak was deep crimson, though in the twilight it seemed as if stars gleamed in the shimmering fabric.

Nothing but shimmering starlight and gleaming gold. Which is all the more annoying, because gold is a fucking horrible material to make weapons out of. Too heavy and not hard.

RalanrNov 10, 20171 votes

If I had to guess, it’s probably not actual gold.

But I can see the frustration.

Warlord DienekesNov 10, 20172 votes

The thing about gold being a crappy metal was more tangential really, to the whole "he is described like he baths in body glitter" problem.

But, since you're the one who thought of making a "What we want form Panth" posts, let's reverse the question. What would you like to see out of the Pantheon rework? And why do/did you care about him originally?

TheBentOn3Nov 10, 20179 votes

I think one of the major issues with Targon lore is that most of them come off as exceedingly unlikable. We got Leona running around purging heretics from her cult and quoting Hitler, whose appearance in his own lore can be summed up as "Arteus was rewarded for the hardships of climbing the mountain by being killed and getting his body stolen by Pantheon.", and then of course there is Zoe....

The only reason I would root for any of these people is because its sort of preferable to the Void eating everyone or the massive amount of collateral damage AurelionSol will do to Runeterra when he finally gets to dole out comeuppance upon the Targonians.

But I'm pretty close to just being like "Screw it, let the void take em all.".

Talos of AltmoraNov 10, 20173 votes

You, I like. I've already passed into the "let the void take them" line of thought. I kind of want to see Sol nuke them... I mean, It would be an interesting lore event just from the fallout.

Stars ShaperNov 10, 20172 votes

Atreus isn't completely dead, Riot said it themselves and it would be even more epic to see his consciousness fighting agains Pantheon's.

Leona starded indeed as an inquisitor, but she is now looking for Diana not because of purging and we might see some good development.

Zoe (unless the Lore changes my view on the matter) and Targonians in general (except for Taric and the Protector, Diana and Leona) are a bunch of self entitled space critters and should be erased from the universe.

Talos of AltmoraNov 11, 20171 votes

They say that, but the lore says that Atreus was sent to the afterlife. They may be speaking poetic, but I doubt Kindred would be very happy about it.

The thing about Leona is that it may be too far to salvage her and make her likeable. Remember, she wanted to murder Diana and it was hate that got her up the mountain. I often argue that the Sun aspect warped her mind, because that doesn't seem like the kind of thing that just goes away.

But hey, at least we agree on Targon as a whole Although I would argue that the aspects, even the most human ones, are inherently alien. I mean, Taric beat-up his own countrymen and the Noxians over a flower that probably won't last that long anyways.

Stars ShaperNov 11, 20172 votes

Targon is quite the mystery indeed and that's what's making a lot of ppl (me included) mad at some... aspects of it (quite unintended pun).

Can't talk more about Atreus before chapter 2.

Leona was infused with memories of hundreds if not thousands of years, imagine how much time passed through her mind in those few moments. If ppl coming back from a coma of few weeks/months can experience radical changes in behavior and personality, think about what may have changed with all that knowledge and feeling transmitted to her.

Taric is the epythome of the good guy, he launched himself off a cliff to save a deer and into a massive fire to save books. The Protector also seems the most likeable of the aspects as he left Taric on his own because he trusts him.

Talos of AltmoraNov 12, 20172 votes

Leona was infused with memories of hundreds if not thousands of years, imagine how much time passed through her mind in those few moments. If ppl coming back from a coma of few weeks/months can experience radical changes in behavior and personality, think about what may have changed with all that knowledge and feeling transmitted to her.

I think Science Fiction and fantasy just trains me to think that having an alien being screw around with your head is usually not a good thing. The aspects do seem to have this odd tendency to come across as controlling. Diana's attack in the elders seemed to be, at least in part, under the influence of her aspect (especially because only another host, Leona, survived it). Pantheon also paints a dark picture of them because it's clear he's the one in charge. Hell, I even thought the Protector had managed to twist Taric's life so he would end up at the Mountain top (I believe Jared corrected me on this, but he said he could see where I got the idea from.)

I like new Taric, I just think he comes across as a bit of a blowhard. It's that flower-thing that makes me think that that Taric doesn't think like a human does anymore. That flower as a species is dying for unknown reasons, possible Natural Selection. Taric still fights for it because it was beautiful... even against men who, in another world could have been Comrades-in-Arms. it just kind of bothers me.

Stars ShaperNov 12, 20172 votes

Science fiction rarely gives un-human beings good traits (except excessive pacifism/ingenuity for some races). Targon (from Aurelion Sol short story) is also living an inner conflict which puts even more mess in what few we know.

Indeed Taric doesn't see things as a common human being does, he has a clearer vision of the universe in terms of "life" and as he says: "The loss of life will be immense, but I cannot save those who seek their own destruction. All those sons, all those fathers, all those futures lost. Demacians and Noxians, ever at each other's throats, magnetically drawn to one another by something lesser than both." And that he knows he cannot reason with them as they won't listen during the battle, he pushes them away though and I don't think he killed any before the last attack.

He is not even saving X because it's beautiful (that was the old him who brought his companion to death), he believes all life is beautiful.

Talos of AltmoraNov 12, 20172 votes

Yeah, but it's a Flower , I just can comprehended how stopping groups from clashing is less important than worrying if one of them steps on a flower. The Flower is neither ecologically important or significant in any way other than it is on it's course to extinction.

it just seems like the safety of those people didn't seem as important to him as the flowers existence. I would have had it as him coming to stop the fighting, and noticing the flower and using it as motivation as he prepared to fight them (I am guessing he didn't kill them, but you never now with targon these days.)

On a side note; do void creatures count as 'living'? By his own philosophy they should be.

Stars ShaperNov 12, 20172 votes

His role is to defend life against the incoming invasion of voidlings which makes me think he will fight them non-stop.

Probably them being from another dimension and having as only appetite the consumption of other things doesn't allow Taric to think about preserving them.

GreenLoreNov 12, 20172 votes

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They say that, but the lore says that Atreus was sent to the afterlife. They may be speaking poetic, but I doubt would be very happy about it.

I think that only means that Pantheon surpresses his host and doesn't actually kill it. There is just no previous instance of Pantheon ever letting his host take control again,thus everyone can consider Atreus to be as good as dead.

The thing about Leona is that it may be too far to salvage her and make her likeable. Remember, she wanted to murder Diana and it was hate that got her up the mountain. I often argue that the Sun aspect warped her mind, because that doesn't seem like the kind of thing that just goes away.

Well keep in mind that her hatred for Diana came from the fact that Diana murdered the elders. She didn't feel said hatred just because Diana preached stuff about the moon,but because Diana murdered the elders(keep in mind that one of them was responsible for saving Leonas life,when she and Pantheon were forced to fight each other to the death).

Sure Leona being ok with executing Diana for questioning the sun makes her rather unlikeable,but her wanting to avenge the fallen isn't that bad in my opinion as it is a fairly natural reaction.

Talos of AltmoraNov 12, 20171 votes

Atreus' family mourned their son and held a funeral for him. While they had suspected he was dead after he had not returned from the expedition, now his demise was confirmed. The Pantheon Aspect had obliterated his personality, memories and emotions. Atreus' flesh was nothing but a shell inhabited by the supernatural Aspect of War; his mortal soul had joined those of the ancestors in the celestial afterlife.

That sounds like he's dead to me.

She wanted to murder Diana just at the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, she was worng. Diana had done it before, the only difference was that know she had proof. She wanted to do this before hearing about it. That, and her "If you would shine like a sun, first you must burn like one." Quote gives the impression that she's killed people for this before and is not a person who is sane enough to have a concept of 'forgiveness', She would fit right at home in WH40k with that attitude.

RalanrNov 12, 20172 votes

“Atreus’s story isn’t over yet.” -Jareden.

Talos of AltmoraNov 12, 20172 votes

I know that, but at the same time they story goes out to say that he is by all rights off the mortal coil. This had happened before, and as Atreus seems to fit all the qualification for being Pantheon's meat suit, we have no reason to believe that Atreus will come back based on how the lore was written.

It just seems like it going to come across as an asspull, because Panth's been stealing bodies for a long time and we've seen no evidence that he can be suppressed.

GreenLoreNov 13, 20172 votes

That sounds like he's dead to me.

Well does the family of Atreus have some sort of magical insight into Pantheon to know that Atreus is truly dead?

They know the tales of Pantheon and that no one who was his host has ever returned,thus they simply assume that he is dead at this point.

She wanted to murder Diana just at the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, she was worng. Diana had done it before, the only difference was that know she had proof. She wanted to do this before hearing about it. That, and her "If you would shine like a sun, first you must burn like one." Quote gives the impression that she's killed people for this before and is not a person who is sane enough to have a concept of 'forgiveness', She would fit right at home in WH40k with that attitude.

Leona felt anger building up inside her as Diana spoke and knew that the elders would sentence Diana to death(and that she would be the one to execute her),but it was never said that Leona herself would have actually killed Diana for what she said.

And I know that this is a quote from hitler,but you know that not everything that hitler did is automatically evil. I mean hitler liked dogs,does this mean that it is evil to like dogs? Hitler was also vegetarian,does this mean that being a vegetarian is evil? He also sat in chairs does this mean that sitting in chairs is evil?

Also you seem to forget that Leona did spare the golden boy,even though she could have been killed for showing mercy.

Talos of AltmoraNov 13, 20172 votes

Well does the family of Atreus have some sort of magical insight into Pantheon to know that Atreus is truly dead? They know the tales of Pantheon and that no one who was his host has ever returned, thus they simply assume that he is dead at this point.

That's kind of the point, Pantheon has done this countless times before, so i would assume he is very, very good at getting its meatsuits. This probably isn't the first time someone tried to linger on in it's shell, but considering that he still has his methods i would assume he has always won. Atreus may be the most determined man alive, but as much as i want him to win and take the bastard out, I have no reason to believe that it is even possible.

I will conceded on your point on Leona, however I still do not think it showed in her in a particularly good light (pun unintended). The Wording also implies that she has done this before, and she doesn't even seem to show the slightest bit of hesitation to do it. It just doesn't make her seem like a person worth rooting for.

I don't really care about where the quote came from, because that is irrelevant. To me, the tone I get from it is A cold, sneering Leona doing a rite for the Solari that involves burning a new convert or heretic, uncaring of the screams and cries for help. It just doesn't seem like the thing any kind of well-adjusted person would say.

Now, about the golden boy. I do not trust the characters actions when an aspect is involved. Diana's seemed to push her to kill the Elders. Not to mention Pantheon shows that an aspect doesn't need to 'share' the body. Leona did spare the golden boy, but those events lead her to the Solari, and then eventually up the mountain. I admit I'm probably overthinking it, but at the same time it is implied that at her trail that she and Atreus were trying to kill each other.

Leona and Atreus fought beneath the blazing sun, and though both bled freely from dozens of wounds, neither could land a deathblow

GreenLoreNov 13, 20174 votes

About Pantheon: The big problem is just that we don't really have any exact information about how the whole aspect-thing actually works.Maybe it is possible that Atreus breaks free from Pantheon or heck maybe Pantheon goes through character development and lets Atreus return(or he gets forced to do it).Heck we barely have any characterization on Pantheon other than the fact that he is an ass to Aurelion sol...

And overall I agree that Leona came off as surprisingly villainous in her lore,they really could have done a better job at showing her good sides.(and tbh the aspect of the sun though seems to be a monster as he was pretty excited about melting the barbarians)

Talos of AltmoraNov 13, 20172 votes

I think Pantheon's update, which I hear is coming out soon, will give us more characterization. Alot of the characters are found in how they interact in-game. As of now i think he may be considered a being tottaly deticated to winning and waging war. Sol does seem to be used as a wmd agiast void rifts, so i would guess that is why he is his warden.

Also, based on how most aspects (as of now Taric and possibly Zoe) seem to look down on him, i am guessing he isn't the best at making friends.

RalanrNov 10, 20176 votes

To be perfectly honest, I wasn’t a fan of how selfless Leona always was given where she was raised. I know the nature and nurture debate still has no answer, but background is still important with development of someone’s personality.

Being raised in a warrior culture that literally involved killing someone your age as a rite of passage seems like something that should effect Leona more.

And arguably it did, but I like it better when Leona starts out as a fanatic to her people and the Solari, only to be forced to question her own beliefs based on the new evidence brought to light. I feel there’s more on an internal struggle there.

Talos of AltmoraNov 10, 20177 votes

When new evidence was first brought to life, she wanted to murder the person who brought it in the first place. There's a key difference between being raised in a warrior culture and murder.

RalanrNov 10, 20173 votes

Yeah because when she was taken in by the Solari she was raised to be extremely loyal and fanatical to them. She was to be their puppet basically.

Now that her faith has not only been questioned, but questioned with a lot of proof, Leona has a chance for character growth and an inner struggle to go against the way she was raised to do what might be the right thing.

Talos of AltmoraNov 10, 20176 votes

I understand, but i think the damage is done for her character. From the way I look at it, the aspect is influencing her to cooperate with Diana. After all, she wanted to murder her so badly that it gave her the strength to climb Targon. As an original character it's interesting, but as a recreation of a compassionate Leona? It's very disturbing.

She was a fanatic, and fanatics don't tend be reasonable people. I personally think that the aspect has some mental influence over her, because she has no reason to believe it any more then she believed Diana.

HelmightNov 10, 20172 votes

I didn't personally read it as the Aspect influencing Leona to cooperate, but rather that receiving the Aspect's power gave Leona context as to the nature of the Solari/Lunari conflict. If she became aware that the Aspect of the Sun and the Aspect of the Moon are actually totally cool with each other and didn't want their followers to murder each other, it would completely change how Leona perceived Diana's actions. Knowing exactly what your god wants, as opposed to having to guess at it, is a powerful thing, even for fanatics.

Talos of AltmoraNov 10, 20175 votes

Well, there is a reason to doubt it's actually the sun. I mean Sol creates stars and while he doesn't think the sun is of good quality it really has no reason to hate him. I mean, every time Sol disobeys a star is destroyed. The aspects are as much a part of Targon as the Targonian empire is. I mean, we don't know anything about the aspects. They seem to be intelligent, but most of them seem to shadowy to be trusted at face value.

I'm sorry, I just can't see it. I mean, I know you didn't like the compassionate Leona, but I'm a big fan of her. This Leona seems to be a Sister of Battle that just showed up on runeterra. She seems like a caricature rather than a real person to me. The fact that she has a being of vague powers and influence in her head it just seems like it's to early to say that it doesn't some control over as, especially because Pantheon and the moon have shown they can control their hosts (and in panth's case, he's in charge.)

HelmightNov 10, 20172 votes

Modern science tells us that our sun and the stars are the same type of entity, but to the Rakkor - and by extension the Solari - they are probably regarded as being wildly different. The Aspect of the Sun therefore doesn't necessarily have a reason to go against Aurelion Sol's imprisonment, though he certainly might have anyways. Obviously not all of Targon's celestials are of one mind.

You're right in that I didn't like compassionate Leona. It just didn't make any sense, given her upbringing in a warrior culture and her knowledge that she'd have to kill someone on her thirteenth birthday. New Leona's outlook makes at least a little more sense, you have to admit (not to mention that it meshes with her in-game playstyle better too).

From my understanding, the Aspect of the Moon isn't controlling Diana, is it? I knew that the Pantheon have completely taken over Atreus's form, but I thought Diana and the Moon had a similar relationship to Leona and the Sun.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOONov 10, 20171 votes

It doesn't control her anymore than the moon controlled old Diana.

Talos of AltmoraNov 10, 20172 votes

That doesn't explain her killing the Solari elders,

Diana was appalled. How could the elders reject what was so patently true? How could they turn their back on revelations brought from the very summit of the holy mountain? Her fury built at their willful blindness, and blazing orbs of silver fire spun in the air around her. With a scream of rage-fueled frustration, Diana's sword swept out, and where it struck, silver fire burned with killing light. Again and again, Diana lashed out and when her fury ebbed, she saw the carnage she had unleashed. The elders were dead and Leona lay on her back, her armor smoking as though fresh from the forge. Appalled at what she had done, Diana fled the site of the massacre, escaping into the wilds of Mount Targon as the Solari reeled from the savagery of her attack.

look, they were probably going to kill her, but there is a difference between "How dare you don't believe in me! huff!" and "DIE UNBELEIVER". There is also the fact that she didn't and still isn't the kind of person to kill people like that. I mean, what was even the point? it only alienates her from the rest of the world. I go into detail about it here. It just doesn't seem like Diana has any control over what happened to her. She's like a leaf in a storm, powerless to do anything. Hell, for all we know she could have used her new powers to escape with less of a body count!

Talos of AltmoraNov 10, 20175 votes

It makes sense that the Solari think of the Sun and stars as different, but given that The Targoians are a space empire that spans countless worlds i would think they have a good grasp on science. Probably better then we do. Assuming that the Aspect is telling the truth, It was created by Sol, or a being similar to him. Sol loves each of his creations, and since the Sun aspect is Intelligent, this could mean that the other stars are as well. I would think I would have some concerns if I was a Sun.

Now, I personally see nothing wrong with Old Leona, because I think she was an interesting Character At the same time. I don't really understand that whole "it fits her playstyle better" because that all depends on how you play. When i had her on my roster i used her kit to try keep damage from my charges. I became their shield and let them get away, and I was tanky enough to take it. Leona's out look made sense, it's just that I really don't like it because turning a character who was compassionate and kind into a Sister of Battle. I like both concepts, but I believe that the Lore team should keep the character's personality because Leona is a big reason I got into support play.

It's my understanding that it can. Her murder of the elders and her reaction shows that while she hated them for not accepting the truth, she didn't want to murder them. A lot of the Targon lore has the implication that the aspects have an influence of the minds of their hosts.

CetriNov 11, 20171 votes

The Sun and Moon aspects are probably more symbolic than you're giving them credit for... Zoe, for example, is the Aspect of Twilight, twilight here being a metaphor for change, which is what she truly represents.

Talos of AltmoraNov 11, 20172 votes

Very true, but that's kind of a problem. If it's just symbolic then the aspect is a being that has great power with a superficial sun motif. Leona is no more than the "chosen of the sun" then I am if that's true.

OurLestradeNov 10, 20175 votes

The funny thing is that while the original Targon trio got the short end of the stick, Taric/Aurelion Sol's lores were perfectly fine. Personally I really dislike what they've done to Diana, her newer direction sort of gimps the tragic "You made me like this" villain archetype that she originally had going for her which I really enjoyed. Pantheon's lore could possibly work if they maybe put his host in conflict with the douchey god of war that's taken over him, and as for Leona? Eh.

ModAcademy KaynNov 11, 20172 votes

I like the Targon Lore because it actually feels realistic for a Culture that's made and raised on the need to fight to survive. People complain about the lack of compassion Leona shows in her new backstory, but where does compassion become influenced in a culture that needs to fight constantly to survive. If you're not strong enough to fight, you don't deserve to live.

By just saying "Oh well Leona is just naturally compassionate", it becomes less "she is kind because she was raised this way", and becomes "She is kind because the story says so."

Talos of AltmoraNov 11, 20175 votes

You know, Culture isn't everything. Just because you might to survive doesn't mean you lack empathy. Hell, They're a tribe, which means that all the members care about one another. Naturally it's easy to have empathy with people you are in close proximity with. I mean, just because your culture says it's right doesn't me you think it's right.

The New lore makes Leona look like a Sister of Battle; just a murderous fanatic. I find the idea of a kind-hearted person trying to change her culture for the better by leading-by- example, is more interesting.

ModAcademy KaynNov 11, 20172 votes

I mean, Culture is everything. It's why systematic racism lasted for so long, even today, because that Culture around those families had values firmly set against those peoples. You say that especially in a tribe, they need to care about each other, that doesn't mean anything without looking at the tribe that they live in. What we deem as "right" is based on the values of how we are raised, due to sources like parents, religion, or the stories that we read.

If I was raised to believe that only men with mustaches should be able to order people around, without any outside influence, that is what I will believe is right, and what I will stick to unless someone else confronts me about it. In Leona's culture, no one is going to confront that belief of theirs.

These are a people who need strength to live on this mountain. If a person cannot pull their weight, they are a liability. You also think that their culture isn't based of necessity, which it is, considering they are living in what is probably the worst place to live. It's a Warrior culture, if you can't survive, you don't deserve to.

Survival necessitates this way of life for them, else they be overrun by conquering hoards, or other tribes on the mountain. Culture is everything. It dictates how we speak, how we act, how we feel about things, what traditions we have. It's all Culture, and it's not easy to break free from it's mold, when you have zero outside influence.