What even is new Noxus?

Ralanr··29 votes·2,255 views

And by new, I mean current.

Look, we all like to have our little debates about how Noxus started to fall from its true self the moment Boram decided going against natural law (hint: Sion resurrection) was a good idea. And we like to glorify that idea of old Noxus by saying how it had more "honor" and stuff and would never resort to the things that made Riven quit.

But let's be real here, old Noxus could actually have been a lot worse. Especially on social issues.

If Darius's old lore motivations are still part of his character, the aristocracy of Noxus prime are all a bunch of cowards who use other people and behind door deals (like actual nobles arguably) and tend to be incompetent when put into military situations (while this isn't always true, the only Noxian Nobles we saw lead an army was in Kled's origin lore and these are people with golden armor who hide behind others while asking for a retreat. Doesn't sound very Noxian to me). And that's why we like Darius right? Because he's a man willing to change Noxus with his own two hands and his axe.

But Darius isn't the problem with current Noxus. The problem is that we don't know what Swain wants for Noxus in the current lore. Hell, I don't know what he wanted in the old lore. I always felt like he just wanted to remove the aristocracy in favor of his own control, but beyond that I wasn't sure he wanted Noxus for the nations interest. All I really know now is that Swain no longer needs to be subtle (hence why he brought Sion out again).

Which brings me to the problem I'm having with Noxus past and present: what's the difference and why cheer for either?

Riven and Kled (Noxian Uncle Sam) both seem to represent ideals of what Noxus should be (or at least, Riven represents that Noxus has fallen from those ideals. Riven's character annoys me though). Kled is the most extreme version of it. He's the guy you don't want to be representing your nation to others.

Then we have Sion, our only real link to the old Noxus (I'd argue Elise and Karthas, but I don't know if they are older or as old as Sion). Sion however is one person, so his opinion can't be seen as the most popular opinion (the guy doesn't look like he gave a crap about who disagreed with him). From Sion's quotes we can tell he has no respect for magic and really follows "strength above all" philosophy in combat. He loves war, it's basically his religion (his quote, "This is what passes for war?!" Is meant to be insulting on modern combat. Modern Noxus for example is prone to using magic and even child soldiers, something Sion could see as cowardly and pathetic tactics. He's a brute force kind of guy). But Boram uses magic to prolong his life (maybe he started his dirty habit after Sion's death) so it's possible that magic wasn't viewed overly negative by Noxus back then, or it was and only the elite used it (which could paint Sion as not a natural born Noxian, similar to Darius who came from a conquered area).

I'm starting to think that all of the Noxians who glorified Noxus traditions and values are from the countryside/conquered peoples who were taught these values from the conquering force. While many of the more regal Noxians (Vladimir, Leblanc, Swain) have lived closer to the aristocracy and deal with the actual politics which only seem to accept Noxian traditions at face value.

So the glorified Noxus of the past? Maybe it was falling long before Sion's death, and only people like Sion and Darius can life as monuments for the people on what true Noxians are while the upper class abuses others to keep their power.

Basically Noxus is Rome/America.

"Make Noxus great again" is a phrase that needs an actual definition of when it was "great" which may not be what the commoners think it means.

42 Comments

Núll26 votes

[deleted]

Thefrostyviking3 votes

That kinda points out how scary Swain is to a degree, he is playing around with everyone and yet no one seems to know what he really wants except maybe LB.

Kloqdq9 votes

I really hope we get a Swain rework soon so he can sort of kick start the Noxus lore and give us an idea of what the hell is going on with them. We have only gotten small pieces of a grand puzzle and I cannot wait to see the resulting image.

Jackom15 votes

I believe Noxus still revolves around the concept of "survival of the fittest", but such concept is perceived differently for each layer of the noxian society.

For the soldier, it's mostly about strength at arms For the commoner, it's about working hard For the merchant, artisan, it may be a mix of being the best at your job, undermining the competition just enough, and looking for the right clients For the aristocrat/politician/military commander, it's more about intrigue, an who can play better at the noxian "house of cards"

At every level, there is a concept of strength, which is seen as something to strive for. Then you can say that in past noxus, the aristocracy were much less distracted by simple politics and more devoted to expansion and war, and that is just how every real empire behaved. RIght now at least, Noxus isn't a nation who needs to expand as much as it used to, you have to consider that, over the years, it may have already expanded to the point where there isn't a real percieved threat (not even demacia, and ionia barely repelled noxus).

As for the single characters, as far as I understand them:

Darius still clings to the old concept of military might, but also understand that a true leader must see further than the next military campaign. If he still is the right hand of Swain, he sees him as a ruler who believes that Noxus can become an even greater empire.

Swain we don't know much about him at this point, but we know he's focused both on military and pure political power. One could even say that he's actually concerned about the future of Noxus, and he's doing everything he can to make it his own version of a great empire, no matter the cost.

The Black Rose, Leblanc Vladimir Elise is more of a secret cabal. Almost none in Noxus actually knows of its existence. All we know right now is that they are far more concerned about their own power and well being than the future of the nation, but they can be bargained with and will help Noxus if called upon, as long as it suits them.

Sion was merely a soldier before dieing, he may have showed what noxus was all about to the common soldier, but everyone with some intellect knew already that a nation is about more than just raw strength. But given his successes, he still became a revered figure, at least to the uncultured mass, hence why he was brought back. Now he's mostly mindless, so I wouldn't think too hard about what he thinks of current noxus.

Riven I just can't like this character, neither gameplay wise nor lore wise. In the lore she was so happy to go war because she wanted to prove her strength, but oh no! War kills people! Agh, it can't be. Surely there must be some sort of war who doesn't harm anyone and doesn't strip the invaded cultures of their freedom and identity. Screw Noxus. Sending children to war is horrible for today standards, but consider that in england, at least until the end of the 19th century, children were still hard working deep in coal mines. Maybe 12 year olds weren't sent to war, but just because 15-16 year olds were slightly more effective soldiers. Really, up to the first world war, and probably during the second one as well, most western countries were just as bad as Noxus.

Urgot He's just receive the lore update, so it's pretty soon to say anything. What I can say is that he probably was/is an old conservative, and used to be a Headsman. I mean, you don't have to be erudite in order to chop people's heads off. He may have known something about the noxian aristocracy, but that doesn't mean he perfectly knew how the city worked. He probably believed he was untouchable, until he was betrayed by swain, who may have just seen him as a annoyance. He believed he understood the politics of Noxus way more than he actually did, and payed for that mistake. Now he feels let down by the city, and vouches his own ideals of chaos and freedom of the individual. He's become a sort of aggressive, hextech augmented Russeau with shotgun knees.

All in all, i'd like Swain to remain the political and military mastermind he used to be, but it's not easy for a story writer to develop that. Even J.R.R. Martin had trouble in writing the political intrigues in Game of Thrones, and Swain is at the same level of its most influential characters. And I hope they'll build on the hate between swain and jarvan IV. One works in an empire without a predetermined ruler, in which whoever wants to lead has to earn his/her own place, one way or another. Jarvan IV may seem as a brighter character, but in the end he's the son of a monarch, he doesn't need to earn his place since he'll be the next king anyway, and he doesn't seem like the guy who will actually transition demacia into some sort of democracy and give true freedom to its people.

Thefrostyviking5 votes

Riven is simple to understand tho, she is exactly like Sion was when alive.

Someone who really, really liked the idea of being king of the bashing people´s-heads-in hill.

She also had a thing for companionship, loyalty and a soldiers honor.

Which is why she got kinda mad when noxus decided to call in singed to chem bomb her and all of her soldiers along with their enemies just because.....well i guess it seemed optimal from the commanders point of view.

Riven who had followed the ideals of strength, honor, loyalty and companionship them got to see all the soldiers in her company along with her enemies gassed to death with their bodies melting in terrible pain as a result of a barrage sent by her own superiors.

It's not really weird for her to get depressed at that point, she who had been a low ranking soldier who climbed up to to the position of a...battalion commander something? Earning the loyalty of her soldiers by ideals and feats while constantly working hard only to have it all collapse in a day in possibly one of the worst ways possible.

Her own revered commanders ordered someone to kill her and all of hers soldiers by means of poison from a distance just because they didnt feel like sending help.....this is like a breach of every ideal she ever had.

Not honorable combat, from a distance, poison and betrayal, all in under a single hour.

Thus all her world views collapsed at the same time as all her friends died screaming in pain sent by their own leaders, which resulted in Riven losing faith in Noxus and thus breaking her sword which was the thing she held as a representation of a "true" noxus to match her worldviews crushed and going into exile.

Then we have the depressed and rather sad vagrant that wants a way to "fix" noxus and it's ideals so that they won't do stuff like chembomb their own soldiers for a quick win.

She also wants to restore her "honor" which would probably be her social position and reputation and also somehow make amends to the spirits of her companions that she probably feels that she lead to their deaths by having them not check the ambush site properly and then the help signal that became the marker for the chem bombers to aim towards.

Essentially she is a huge bundle of regrets,sadness and loss bought about because someone else was an asshole while she was still .....well not innocent since she was a accomplished soldier but naive towards the darker side of noxian politics.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

my god you are the one person i can find that gets it that understands rivens lore and why she is what she is...also i would like to say she was sad about the peoples deaths not because she hates killing like this other guy said its because she sees that the people she fought won fair and square so she accepted her death but in the end their rightful victory was taken by the cowardly tactic of using poison.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Yeah, i was thinking this was her ideal of a "true noxians" soldiers honor.

Winning fair through superior strength head on, she felt this kind of fight was something worth respecting and honoring the people who mastered it.

And she thought her countrymen and leaders did the same x)

Jackom12 votes

Actually this a nice read, well written. I did picture her in a simple way. Although it is hard to see her like that with what little is given of her lore. I mean, she wasn't really betrayed, she was simply considered an affordable loss, along with her comrades. And yeah, that's more than enough to destroy a person who up to that point had an idealised view of her own country. But the lore needs to say more about this, and god his in game character is an anime heroine, it simply can't conveyed any of the sentiments you described so well.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

......Ya know, being considered an affordable loss and being chem bombed is kinda the same as being betrayed, someone sold you off for their own profit, in her case to intended lethal effect which failed.

And her lore does really lack a little detail to the her emotional aspects however if you couple it with her in game dialogue it becomes quite clear what her mentality is.

Someone who experienced a crushing defeat, and still carries on looking for a way even if it means to wander lost.

And most of her quotes reflect on this, and she knows it too.

"A blade mirrors it's owner" .....she is broken but can still fight.

"Burdens of the past" - ....possibly a double reference to her time in noxus as well as what happened in ionia.

She then has a few more on the subjects of learning from one's own mistakes, choosing new paths to follow and not giving up.

"What is broken can be reforged" , thus quote, coupled with "A blade mirrors it's owner" and her own broken sword is kind of a thing that tells it's own story.

She was broken but she is looking for a new path and will return when she is certain in what way she wishes to proceed.

They removed it but in her old splash her sword was broken and only in her redeemed did she have a whole sword, a sign of her having found a new path.

She just appears like a somewhat emo anime heroine when you don't know what the heck she is on about, it's only after that you realize that she in fact does have some depth more than trying to sound mysterious or profound^^

Ralanr3 votes

Honestly her in game quotes make her seem a lot farther along her self realization path than I wish she was. I feel like we lost some interesting character.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

She hasn't gotten really far though, she knows what she likes and dislikes, she also knows that Noxus isn't quite as transparent as she thought it was and that there are dark undercurrents.

However she doesn't know how she wants to confront it, how to deal with what happened or what she should think about it.

Some of her quotes refer to a "greater good", while others are simply ruthless and decisive.

So she is still looking, does she want to be a shining hero? A pragmatic social reformer? A mighty general like Darius?

Or something different? I get the impression she´s still looking for a path that she believes is worth following, one that cherishes strength, honor, companionship and directness, without taking any of them too far.

She is looking to make her ideal a reality as well as to atone for her past, and she is downright in the middle of it with the noteworthy trait that she posses some self awareness of it all. Probably a result of guilt from her perceived failures causing her to question her actions and the things that happened while slowly forming opinions and thoughts on the events while also seeking to learn from them.

So that past tragedies won't repeat, so that mistakes won't be repeated and so that she can keep walking forward with her head help high with pride once again.

A well balanced character that fits her background and story i think.

Ralanr1 votes

See, I don't think it makes sense that she should refer to the "greater good" when she's lived her life under the Noxus mentality. She shouldn't have much of an understanding of what the greater good is.

I'm fine with her understanding what she finds wrong, but she should still be trying to find what's good to fight for. It feels like she already has or is already on the second step.

What quotes are ruthless and decisive?

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Most of her movement quotes are kinda introspective and questioning, however when she attacks or ults she suddenly goes full on "They cannot be forgiven!"

Or "Sacrifices must be made"

"There is no other way"

For some examples, it kinda shadows at her past determination, she was able to carry a sword way above her size from a early age to her current massive one just out of sheer damm willpower and endless strife for improvement.

When a character like that makes up their mind to fight it's just sheer brute power all in which is a special kind of scary.

Ralanr2 votes

Still think there's a lot of character development that we missed and not for the better. She should be more conflicted and not even know have an idea on what "the greater good" even means.

She's a deserter deep within enemy territory, she shouldn't be having that solid a base of morals.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

We don't actually know where she is tho, the war supposedly happened a while back. For Kayn was only a little kid when zed picked him up during it.

So Riven has had several years at least to think. And seeing that her base splash is a barren area of ruins i´d assume she´s in or close by the war zone between noxus and demacia or near shurima currently.

And her idea of greater good is probably noxus as she grew up believing it to be, a place where the strong, talented and dedicated can rise up and above on their merits no matter who they are or where they came from.

And the ideals of honor, companionship and in her case, strength.

Ralanr1 votes

And yet those years of thinking I feel have the more conflicted character that Riot's background lore is trying to write her as.

Those are the years I want. Not after.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

ehhh....the first few years was probably spent full on trauma tho, i mean, she was in the middle of a war only to see all her friends melt into toxic waste as her world collapsed around her.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "thinking state" that you are looking for isn't exactly where she is now or just shortly before now.

And besides, people wondering if they should try to do something or even try to keep living are usually not too invested in the idea of fighting, only as she is now does it make some sense for her to be able to fight.

But kinda like a PTSD patient recovering, which in itself is kinda amazing because as far as we know she has been hiding alone in a wasteland somewhere meaning that any recovery was the product of her own willpower.

Ralanr1 votes

Then hopefully when they get back to her lore they mention that he desertion from Noxus wasn't recent.

Because so far it reads like it is and her VO talks like it's been a while.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

For her it probably feels very recent, huge traumas work like that as far as i know.'

But her lore is just not mentioning what she's been doing recently and instead focuses on that big past event which essentially skipps out on a number of years which indeed makes it mildly confusing.

However the lore added with kayn tells us that around a decade has passed, that's where i got it from.

And just to mention, she wasn't really a deserter, because when a military leader bombs their own solders it's no longer possible to demand their loyalty, that attack was meant to kill her and thus her very survival is unknown and exile is self imposed.

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

For her it probably feels very recent, huge traumas work like that as far as i know.'

But her lore is just not mentioning what she's been doing recently and instead focuses on that big past event which essentially skipps out on a number of years which indeed makes it mildly confusing.

Yeah, which leads me to get frustrated with her character and it's hard to write my kind of fanfics about her because of it.

However the lore added with kayn tells us that around a decade has passed, that's where i got it from.

True, but that's just been since Kayn was taken in by Zed. For all we know, the battles are still going on and Riven might not even be that much older than Kayn.

And just to mention, she wasn't really a deserter, because when a military leader bombs their own solders it's no longer possible to demand their loyalty, that attack was meant to kill her and thus her very survival is unknown and exile is self imposed.

Her exile is self-imposed, but considering she's carrying around a very dangerous weapon that Noxus will probably want back, they will treat her like a deserter. Hell, Urgot will call her a traitor.

Dataless3 votes

If you want to understand Noxus, read "The Prince" by Machiavelli.

Morgan le Fey5 votes

So Noxus is a mocking parody of what its leaders and power players think they believe? :P

Dataless4 votes

Bard Airhorns

10 points to Grynffindor.

Morgan le Fey2 votes

Off-top: I really like the Bard airhorn. Also, nice icon! Adorable fluff balls for all!

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Blood Magicks1 votes

The ideals and social politics of current (and past) Noxus are quite contradictory.

The contradiction that bothers me the most is the combination of emphasis on physical strength and military conquest and the apparent gender equality in there. Like historically these things have never coexisted.

Ralanr6 votes

Eh, I tend to let suspension of disbelief take over when it comes to gender equality in warriors for fantasy fiction. I doubt Riot is trying to make Runeterra as accurate as possible while being a fantasy setting like in GoT.

Blood Magicks1 votes

So Demacia can have arranged marriages that decide a woman's fate (Fiora lore) and Azir can live in a male-dominated land with a huge harem, but no way Noxus can have heard of double standards?

I agree to some extent but come on let's be consistent on a large scale.

Ralanr8 votes

Well Noxus isn't Demacia (a city that is so deep in tradition that they are practically xenophobic imo) and they aren't old Shurima (though old Shurima had an ascended Queen. Sivir's weapon belonged to her).

Though it's possible that Noxus isn't as gender equality in the military as we don't see female soldiers in any of the recent depictions of Noxian soldiers (Bard and Kled's cinematics respectively) so maybe it's a rarer thing?

Hell, maybe Riven is a noble who got a position do to bloodline (which kinda shoots my country bumpkin theory in the foot) or (as cliche as this sounds) she's really THAT good.

And I think we have had female commanders or combatants in some ancient civilizations.

Wrathof3004 votes

Her title was 'Queen of the Ascended hosts' she wasn't however, an emperor, the title probably is just referring to her being the leader/ the oldest of the Ascended in her time.

Nixtarma4 votes

That being said, we do not have a very large amount of information on the social situation of Ancient Shurima beyond their central imperial ruling system, and the presence of slaves. Ancient Egypt was remarkably egalitarian for an ancient society, and had a couple of ruling queens (Hatshepsut, etc.), so there is maybe they did have some queens.

Still, Seteka, Warrior Queen of the Ascended Hosts was probably just a great general.

TwitchInMyPants5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blood Magicks,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pbElvcwE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-17T14:56:58.942+0000)

So Demacia can have arranged marriages that decide a woman's fate (Fiora lore) and Azir can live in a male-dominated land with a huge harem, but no way Noxus can have heard of double standards?

I agree to some extent but come on let's be consistent on a large scale.

Noxus vs Demacia is fairly black & white, even if there's more nuance to it. Most Noxian Champions are villains and a lot of their values give little credence to morality. I don't doubt there are double standards in Noxus, but its not like they wrote it into law. They probably value women who stand outside the norm as amazing soldiers, proving themselves through slaughter (Like Katarina) or those who are legendary for their cunning and control of magic (Leblanc).

These seem to be the exception rather than the rule, but the point is they prove themselves against adversity. Any man below them sees they're higher in the chain of command, and any of them can take their heads to claim that power. But they know its a fools errand because of the influence, power, and wit of these women - it'd likely be suicide.

Krabohod2 votes

RIght now they are fastly moving from black & white to grey & grey. And that is very good thing that Noxus isn't pure evil, and Demacia isn't pure good anymore. But points you make after that makes me upvote you :)

HalfTangible3 votes

I don't really find a problem with it, given that we see very few examples of strong Noxian women (in terms of physical strength, anyway - powerful sorceresses are EVERYWHERE). The main example I can think of (Katarina) is more of a speedy-slashy type than a brute force character. It may be idealistic to think that Noxus would ONLY care about your physical strength and wouldn't stereotype women as either too weak for war or the cunning variety of combatant, but I don't think it's a bad thing overall. While women are weaker on a broad scale, this isn't always true for individual men and women.

It's a little strange that foreigners can rise to power in a society that puts so much emphasis on its home culture, but again, ideally this would be how Noxus would want it to work, and as stated elsewhere League is not Game of Thrones, nor should it be. It's its own goofy, fun thing with rule-of-cool in full effect in many places.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

I do believe that in a journal of justice (non canon now) mentioned discrimination in Noxus against non humans (yordles?) but in the end though the core belief still remains above all else. It doesn't matter in Noxus as long you can prove your self.

Darius Strada1 votes

Noxus is pretty much Rome/Sparta

Agent Corgi1 votes

Darius : I feel like he's the Poster boy of what Noxus SHOULD be (Sorry Kled), kinda like what Garen is to Demacia. Like how it was mentioned in Kled's lore, most Noxian nobles are afraid to get their hands dirty. If Darius had his way, these Nobles wouldn't just be off the battlefield, they would be considered weak & either exiled or executed. I think all Darius wants is to mold Noxus into a Powerful & Formidable Nation. There should be a short story about him, I'd definitely would give that a read. Talon : one of the deadliest Assassins in Valoran & he just so happen to be Noxian. Talon was originally a street urchin who just so happened to be gifted in swordfighting, until he was defeated by General Du Couteau (Who just so happens to be the Father of Katarina). From then on he served under him alone & now searches for the missing general. Hopefully they write a short story about how his travels are going as he searches for Du Couteau. Swain : I feel like there's more to Swain than we know. He once walked into the Infirmary as a teenager with a badly injured leg & it didn't faze him. Currently, he works as a Noxian Master Tactician & has ties to Leblanc's Black Rose. Rumor has it that when Xayah /Rakan were released, Swain was rumored to have Vastayan blood coursing through his veins as well, which would explain how he has access to such powerful magic. Perhaps when Riot takes a swing at him, maybe we'll get some insight on his past. Who knows, maybe the real reason why Noxus is attacking Ionia is because Swain & Leblanc are trying to extract the Magic of the Vastaya, the same magic Rakan & Xayah are trying to retrieve.

Baron Barian1 votes

I want to see some form of interaction with Kled and Darius. And old vs new situation. Trying to imagine if the two would be the nest of friends or enemies of different morals.

SolarisCorvus3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=pbElvcwE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-07-18T02:14:32.242+0000)

I want to see some form of interaction with Kled and Darius. And old vs new situation. Trying to imagine if the two would be the nest of friends or enemies of different morals.

Kled would see dairy boy as a puppet and as such would not respect him. Also darius is a trespasser since he isnt skaarl so eventually kled would try to kill him.

Krabohod1 votes

And Darius would see Kled as drunk blood-driven old crazy person (yordle?). Such people do not obey commands well. And thus he is not interesting for Darius.

Celebrimborr1 votes

Whom'st is this Boram you speak of?

Itsbeghdev1 votes

Boram Darkwill, the dude in charge of Noxus before Swain was.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

personally, i kinda wish Noxus was about Courage and strength above all i feel it shouldn't matter if you are weak as long as you are willing to fight i think you should be able to gain respect by just not running from fights like cowards i would respect a man who fights someone stronger than him and never gives up.thats what leads to people becoming strong.but then again that clashes a little with assassins but then again their strength is to come at people when they know they can win.Noxus shouldnt hate magic since magic is just a tool like a blade thus another form of strength.

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