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We want the same thing but in different ways

ScurvyNave··3 votes·1,720 views

We can all agree that we want more Lore. The lack of it since and even before the retcon is disappointing. Not only the quantity but also the quality of the stories recently made are lacking. Riot themselves obviously wants to improve the lore but every new champion seems to get a story that raises more questions and concerns than answers them.

Now before anyone assumes this is a typical rage "RIOT LORE TEAM SUCKS I CAN DO BETTER EZ" post, let me just clarify what I believe are the main concepts or goals of a Lore about a place or being:

  1. A good lore should answer at least as many questions as it raises. The mysterious Bard movie and lore write up tell us nothing with very little material at all. It's like if they changed Garen's lore to: He was a big guy with a sword who joined Demacia for mysterious reasons and does mysterious things. ......... It's not only lazy writing but it also makes the reader more confused and unattached to the champion. A good lore has to at least give some description or personalization of the champion

  2. Lore's should intermingle. I know Riot wants their universe to be separate like some odd Super Smash Brother's style but good storytelling can intermingle champions without having to fall back on the League of Legends and summoners. A quick search for LoL fanfics is proof enough that people can find ways to interconnect the champions and give them reasons for interacting.

  3. Lore can not be stagnant or predictable. The main issue with the pre-retcon lore was that most of it fell into a basic formula. Champion released...lore.....journal of justice..... This is so and so... so and so has this power....this is why so and so joined the league. While the recton and new lores break this formula they also come out so rarely with such little material it feels like I'm subscribed to some Lore magazine that has cheatedd me out of my money by putting a fancy animated Bard movie on the front cover with the inside pages being blank.

Then we run into the main conflict which is what Riot wants/plans to do and what we want/expect from the lore team

We want (in general): -Decently long Lore descriptions showing characterization and motivation and how the universe fits together after the chaos the retcon caused

  • Lore released at a reasonable pace to answer our questions with feedback and communication with the lore team so we know that they aren't dead or up a creek without a pen or paddle -Respect for pre existing lore's that are well written and don't deserve to be cut apart like what happened with the shurima champs (Skarner/ Amumu).

What Riot wants (in general and n my interpretation): -To not trap themselves by answering every question about a champion. That way they leave the story open ended so it can be added to. Except we rarely see any additions and at this rate I'll have a beard the size of Zilean's by the time all the lore is converted into the new anti-summoner form. -Try new things other than just story telling with words (Clips and animations or the awesome Rek'sai journal as examples). -To be respected and interact with a community that (by some of their own fault) currently has more hostility than a cornered badger.

Overall the Lore of League of Legends will get better but we have to come to some sort of compromise in order for everyone to be happy. We want detail...Rito want mystery. We want updates/ communication Riot wants... mystery and suspense.

Something has to be done and soon before this situation becomes irreversible. At this rate I'm liable to go back to playing TF2 at least their universe has a story and makes sense!

27 Comments

Narasimha3 votes

Just to jump in for an instance

The mysterious Bard movie and lore write up tell us nothing with very little material at all.

This is entirely intentional. Ever heard of the Cthulu Mythos? Bard is basically the semi-benevolent version of 'The Old Ones'. A being beyond human scope and understanding, something that does its own thing in its own way. You can't describe a character like that, because humans aren't able to comprehend it.

Doctor Ivellius3 votes

I think it's good for him to be mysterious and unknowable.

The movie still has some issues, though--you couldn't obviously tell that it was set in Runeterra, and there wasn't a clear explanation of the human elements involved. Who was fighting? Why were they fighting? What could the orb do or be known to do? It didn't establish enough of the stakes to work as a story.

Narasimha2 votes

Yeah, this is actually pretty true, only lore fans would kind of get what happened.

  1. It was Noxians fighting Ionians, most likely during the invasion of Ionia.
  2. Presumably, Noxus caught wind of the mysterious magical orb and wanted to use its power.
  3. The orb was implied (and confirmed in Bard's Q&A) to have incredible destructive powers. Remember, it cut through a mountain when used by accident.
Doctor Ivellius1 votes

  1. I may be misremembering, but I think the teaser about the stars was said to have been told by a now-old man who was a child during this battle. If that's true, it wouldn't seem to fit with the invasion of Ionia that was comparatively recent (to the degree that young-ish League champions fought in it). Mostly this raises questions about the history of the world that would seem nice to have answered.

  2. Presumably, though see the response to 3.

  3. Absolutely it had destructive potential. But the problem is that this was shown accidentally--if the sides knew that it could do that, why didn't the villagers use it to defend themselves? Why would Noxus think that they could actually take it in battle? It wasn't all that difficult to activate accidentally; how much easier would it be to use on purpose?

Now you can think of a solution for this: perhaps the village feared using its power and steadfastly refused to do so at all costs. In that case, why have the orb at all at this point? Maybe there's a non-violent use for it (that we're not shown), but they're not able to protect it adequately, so why wasn't it already sent to the heavens like they seem to be trying to do? And this attitude matches with Bard's so well that you'd think he'd care more about people that shared his outlook on the world and would have intervened more quickly. Otherwise he seems a bit less good than the overall portrayal would indicate. (This attitude does admittedly make him more otherworldly, and I don't really have a problem with that save that he's supposed to be a "Caretaker.") You can figure out ways around most of these questions, but the whole thing still feels ill-fitting. I think we need to be shown more of the story.

Narasimha3 votes

  1. Yeah, the old man was actually the child running away. But for all we know, the story telling sequence could have been set in the near future. But that's for riot to tell us

  2. I'm assuming that they didn't know how to send it away. For all they knew, setting up the orb on the altar could have made it go nuclear, so to speak. And Bard is still pretty much a legend, theres no way they'd know anything about him. So the best option was simply to hide it away and hope no one came looking for it. But yeah, most of what we have is pure speculation. Nothing concrete until we finally get the lore we've been promised.

Doctor Ivellius1 votes

  1. Then we'd get into a weird floating timeline in which events aren't anchored to anything concrete. I don't think that actually works in a medium like this, because you would always default to the most "recent" or "advanced" point in the timeline--you're basically saying Bard isn't around and active in Runeterra yet even though he's in the game. That's also pretty weird.

  2. If they didn't know or thought the altar would be bad, why are they trying to take the orb there in the middle of a battle? As overmatched as they were, wouldn't it have made sense to have it moved sooner? Even if you think it's going to "go nuclear," the invaders are slaughtering everyone anyway, and the village should have been able to get the orb up more quickly. Again, you can probably handwave a solution--they were supremely overconfident in their ability to defend themselves?--but it just raises a lot of questions about why they're acting as they are, and we don't have anything much but speculation.

67450548_DEL2 votes

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Tesla Effect2 votes

{quoted}

  • "When Ionia faces its greatest crisis Ao Shin, the storm dragon, will return." This sentence gives you a hint: Noxus holds the southern provinces, for capital and more artifacts to fight Demacia. However, Lux infiltrated the High Command and found out about the invasion, as well as its Zaunite contracts (Singed Warwick). So, you have the two most powerful rival empires going out of their way to reach a land that has forever shunned armed conflict and would rather assess itself from within rather than without, a land that houses ancient powers that would surely threaten existence if left unchecked (Syndra Varus Zed) a land that has found itself the victim of circumstance (Akali Irelia Karma Kennen ShenLeeSin MasterYi Soraka) and an entity that is tied to its very core (and if the Spirit Guard Udyr comic tells you anything, is that Ao Shin is all but benevolent).

  • What else is this, if not a recipe for disaster greater than all of the previous events combined?

Oh I bet will get the Warwick and Irelias splash art during the time they revisit Ionia again.

Doctor Ivellius2 votes

  • You know, I do understand that the only point of it was to hype up the new champion.

  • And yes, I understand he doesn't care about "people" in general. But you would think that if these people share a motive with him, he'd be interested in protecting them or at least getting their help in doing his job.

  • So apparently the Noxians can launch a massive naval invasion without being noticed, and the Floating Islands are...close enough walking distance to the sea that the Ionians can't run an artifact up the mountain before they're caught? Actually, how did they get there so quickly?

  • The time-scale also doesn't match with everything else we've been shown about the Noxian invasion of Ionia, so this requires a much earlier, previously unmentioned invasion that apparently had no lasting consequences for a pacifistic Ionia that was still around to be invaded decades later.

  • Still doesn't really answer why they didn't use the orb to defend themselves earlier if it was that hopeless. They're aware of its true power, and sure, it cuts into a mountain, but...they fell back on using it nonetheless. If they were as pacifistic as you suggest, they shouldn't have any expectation that they can win a military battle and you'd think they'd just go ahead and use the weapon they have. More so given the "We'll die without it" comment. It's possible he's referring to some peaceful use for it, but if that's the case, they're all going to die in battle anyway, so his priorities are a bit off. Again, you can probably make up an answer, but it's not clear.

  • The last part is just speculation, and it's probably too much to hope that Riot would use any of this as foreshadowing for Ao Shin. Also, a disaster threatening the world? Better figure out a way to keep it from destroying Runeterra so that we can actually have a world.

  • Also, what was going on with the other shrines at the end of the video? Was Bard teleporting artifacts off them at the same time?

67450548_DEL1 votes

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Doctor Ivellius3 votes

{quoted}

Ionia doesn't have a standing military, and neither a standing navy. You got fishing boats at the least, some slightly larger vessels at most. Ionia is a pacifist insular nation, they have no need for these things. They thought the ocean kept them safe. They never saw it coming, and even if they did, they would have fared a little bit better than they did, but that's about it.

Sure, I read everything. I don't think I could say the same of you, even with all of your block quotes. Nothing you posted answers why they didn't already have it sent away when the invaders are climbing up to the villages (maybe they can't? But then why bother sending it to the top of the mountain?). Nothing you posted answers why one area would be abandoned by the invasion and not others (sure, you can suggest reasons, but they're speculative). Also, you apparently don't even know the current lore at all--Noxus isn't in Ionia if everything happened exactly the same but without the League of Legends. Dunno how, you'd have to ask Riot. I assume Ionia drove them out after a few years.

I conceded all along that you can make up reasons to justify much of this, but very little is actually shown, which is a storytelling failure. Feel free to keep writing lengthy responses with your fan explanations if you want, but it doesn't make their current stories successful.

67450548_DEL1 votes

[deleted]

Doctor Ivellius3 votes

{quoted}

But then do not come accusing me or Solideus or Tesla or anyone else of "justifying Riot's failures" or "insulting" or whatever self-righteous or self-victimizing claim. At least we don't have our heads so far up our assess we think our farts are perfume.

This is such a perfect description of you guys, though. "We're the real victims! Our subjective opinions are fact! Other people don't like obviously broken stories! We're going to lob crap at anyone who dares to think about what's been written! Trust Riot!"

Tesla Effect2 votes

{quoted}

I think it's good for him to be mysterious and unknowable.

The movie still has some issues, though--you couldn't obviously tell that it was set in Runeterra, and there wasn't a clear explanation of the human elements involved. Who was fighting? Why were they fighting? What could the orb do or be known to do? It didn't establish enough of the stakes to work as a story.

It was definitely Noxus. I saw that same armor on the sacrificed troops that Vladimir used for Sions resurrection (back in the Reborn page).

67450548_DEL2 votes

[deleted]

Tesla Effect2 votes

{quoted}

Rank-and-file, I might add. There is also the Raedsel Guard (named after the eponymous general, who was Darkwill's most bloodthirsty supporter, as well as his right hand) and the ones in-between. Both of these groups dress kinda like Swain.

Demacia's rank-and-file, on the other hand, is comprised of Helmet Bros and Helmet Sis's, with the Valor Knights being the elite, as well those in-between.

The Royal Demacian Guards may actually have the armor that Garen, Lux, XinZhao have, the rest may have the Helmet Bro standard outfits.

Just look at this picture of a Demacian building. It has a person with a Helmet Bro helmet on it, obviously representing the standard Demacian Military soldier. (This artwork can be seen in The Music of League of Legends documentary when they are talking about Demacia Rising song).

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20150129125903/leagueoflegends/images/1/1c/Demacia_Castle.jpg

ScurvyNave3 votes

{quoted}

Just to jump in for an instance

This is entirely intentional. Ever heard of the Cthulu Mythos? Bard is basically the semi-benevolent version of 'The Old Ones'. A being beyond human scope and understanding, something that does its own thing in its own way. You can't describe a character like that, because humans aren't able to comprehend it.

So then why the heck is he fighting non-god tier people in an arena eh? Personally the idea of a divine being who wanders the cosmos stopping to slug it out with crazy gun wielders, undead horsemen, and sentient scorpions doesn't add up.

They can make a mysterious character but at least make the lore more than two measly paragraphs

Legacy of Xion3 votes

Because this is Super Smash Bros MOBA - Runeterra editi9n, and any sense to the game is nonexistant.

The game is the game, lore is the lore. And they don't care.

Doctor Ivellius3 votes

Please don't insult Smash Bros. by comparing it to the "story" in League of Legends.

Legacy of Xion1 votes

Hey, I was just parroting Riot - they said thts what the model was.

Doctor Ivellius3 votes

I understand. But I don't think they realize how bad they made the story in comparison.

Tesla Effect2 votes

Yes, I just want more lore. The new approach aint bad, its just we need more lore from that new canon, otherwise people will nitpick anything that will come by because the key factor isnt released in a satisfied amount.

I agree with most of your points, except the champion updated lore. Champions that really didnt have a place anywhere in the old lore, or dont have a place in the new one should in my opinion have a new lore to back up the changes and if they are part of a new faction that can make sense in the long run, why no (Example: Alistar and Malphite could be part of Mount Targon, Shaco and Nocturn from the Glades) Some lore changes have to happen, but the best they can do is to incorporate aspects of the old lore into the lore of the champions, that way we are assured that current canon is incorporating the old as well as the new (Sion for an example with the whole Darkwill, Black Rose and Swain come to power thing).

I also want to see consistency between what we seen in the concept art of the world of Runeterra. Numerous artwork looks amazing, but most of them are so inconsistent with one another that Im not sure how the place even looks like (Examples being the shape of the Shadow Isles, Howling Abyss location). This is why they have to place a basis for all the locations we currently know of in the LoL universe, so that future artists wont draw the location completely differently. And for the very least they should incorporate some aspects of the old artwork into the new one (like make the Freljord capital of Rakelstake actually be the block of ice we saw in the old artwork). Make detailed maps, city layouts and general world item artwork instead of just pretty scenery artwork.

TheGrandAlliance2 votes

{quoted}

We can all agree that we want more Lore. The lack of it since and even before the retcon is disappointing. Not only the quantity but also the quality of the stories recently made are lacking. Riot themselves obviously wants to improve the lore but every new champion seems to get a story that raises more questions and concerns than answers them.

I see it differently... before "retcon" everything was evoling. The few paragraphs of lore written were masterful... they had so much context in what little space provided. You had a clear understanding of Runeterra from otherwise was very small space. I had no problems with "old lore release strategy".

What IS I believe what people what is a RPG or MMORPG. Until LoL becomes LoLRPG (single player plz) there isn't more that lore team could or should have done otherwise.

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